"Clayton claims he's "baffled" by Wilson contract talks"

[vonstout]

If we'd don't sign him and non-exclusive tag him, I'd take the two first rounders and put together a package to draft Cardale Jones next year. He'd have some growing pains in the NFL, but I don't think it would take long for him to be a very good replacement for RW. RW has been great, but I don't think we should pay him more than $22M a year. I'd rather have Jones and be able to resign Graham, Sherm, Thomas, etc vs. having RW and not having the cap space to keep the core players.

 

[Russ Willstrong]

Greed isn't always evil.

Playing out his contract and forcing the franchise tag may be how Wilson beats his "game manager" perception among public opinion. He has already outplayed his contract 1000 fold. If he hits the market other teams will value him as a primary play maker--instant offense passing or running threat.

I wouldn't think its all about money when he is not planning to hold out. At this time he's out doing his youth football camp and plans to play this season for 1.5 million.

 

[Russ Willstrong]

Funny how folks like Tical presume Wilson was made a good qb by PC and Bevell. Both coaches have not schemed plays for a scrambling playmaker before nor have they ever had one like Wilson at the qb position.

On the other hand Wilson have been making these plays since high school. He was an excellent scrambling passer at NC State often passing 30 times in a 5 wide set. He brought his game to Wisconsin where his playmaking made him an instant sensation among a legion of football fanatics who viewed the running game and defense as key to success and that quarterbacks could be mere game managers. A town where Darell Bevell was One of those game managers who at one time became a hero for running for a touchdown. Russell Wilson changed the offensive philosophy in Wisconsin for a brief time just as he's done in Seattle.

So who made who? This question and an existing attitude to discredit Wilson might be partly to blame for Wilson's tweets.

 

[SeaToTheHawks]

If we'd don't sign him and non-exclusive tag him, I'd take the two first rounders and put together a package to draft Cardale Jones next year. He'd have some growing pains in the NFL, but I don't think it would take long for him to be a very good replacement for RW. RW has been great, but I don't think we should pay him more than $22M a year. I'd rather have Jones and be able to resign Graham, Sherm, Thomas, etc vs. having RW and not having the cap space to keep the core players.

No. Just no. Cardale Jones might not even be starting in college this year. He had a nice run, but I didn't see anything that tells me he has any shot of being a successful NFL QB.

 

[ctrcat]

If we'd don't sign him and non-exclusive tag him, I'd take the two first rounders and put together a package to draft Cardale Jones next year. He'd have some growing pains in the NFL, but I don't think it would take long for him to be a very good replacement for RW. RW has been great, but I don't think we should pay him more than $22M a year. I'd rather have Jones and be able to resign Graham, Sherm, Thomas, etc vs. having RW and not having the cap space to keep the core players.

No. Just no. Cardale Jones might not even be starting in college this year. He had a nice run, but I didn't see anything that tells me he has any shot of being a successful NFL QB.

I don't see any QB next year or in the foreseeable future with special physical and/or intangible skills. There haven't been since 2012.

 

[olyfan63]

Who knows if Wilson would be as successful on any other NFL team?
If we have to pay Wilson $20-25M per year, where will we lose depth and quality? Will we then be a team that has a good QB and offense, but just a good, but not GREAT, defense?

Hypothetical:
Would you rather have one more SB win, with a $20M salary cap advantage and then lose Russell...
Or contend for the next 5 years straight but lose in the playoffs each time and not reach the SB?

I'd be just as happy to have Russell play out the year under the current contract, have our best shot ever at another SB win, with our $15-20M advantage at the QB position, and then see what happens after that.
In any case, the 'Hawks need to be developing the best "Plan B" options they can.

I think Russell Wilson's skill set has unique value in the Seattle system, but not necessarily elsewhere. Wilson and the offense struggled and squandered pretty much a full quarter in SBXLIX while New England made a 10-point comeback. Where was our great QB then? It's not like New England had a truly incredible defense. Blame Bevell if you want, but Wilson didn't exactly get it done when it mattered. Wilson is TOO SHORT for that playcall, and it cost us the Lombardi. (Personally, I blame Bevell more for the retarded playcall that had Wilson using a below-NFL-average area of his skills instead of taking advantage of a playcall that DID use Wilson's true gifts, mobility and decision-making)

The despised Niners made it to a Super Bowl with Colin Kaepernick as their QB, and would have won were it not for Jacoby Jones' 108 yard kickoff return. The Ravens of 2000-ish won a Super Bowl with Trent-freaking-Dilfer as their QB, with an all-time elite defense, which is pretty much the setup the Hawks are in position to prove they have.

I'm fine with letting Russell play out the final year of his rookie contract and taking our chances with that.
How do we know that Belichick and the Patriots didn't expose enough fatal flaws in Wilson's game in SB XLIX that other teams will now use this year to stymie and ultimately beat the Hawks?

Do we really know that Wilson can carry the team himself with $20M less of talent on Defense and Offense?
How many times has Wilson carried the team with the +$20M advantage we have now? I'd like to say GB NFCCG, but really, Wilson dug that hole, and the D shut down Rogers just enough, the Special Teams made big plays, so it's hard to credit Wilson fully with carrying the team out of it. I could go with Wilson carrying the team in several games in 2012, including Chicago, and in the Atlanta loss in the playoffs, and in 2013, maybe the NFCCG vs Niners, but again it was Wilson's screwups that helped set up the dire circumstances to begin with, and it was the D that sealed the game.

If Wilson's agent wants to roll the dice, fine, but the sky is NOT falling for the Seahawks. Would Seattle be a better team by tying up $25M/Year in the QB position? I'm not convinced the answer is yes. Could PC/JS strike gold again in the draft at QB, or by a retread who discovers new life when they have an elite defense and a great running game? Let Wilson and his agent do what they will, but the Seattle FO should not cave to team-crippling demands.

Great post completely one sided missing a lot of information, but great, I like they way you under score what very very few positives about Wilson you make and over score if not exaggerate the things that take away form Wilson. All and all a great post worthy of any anti Wilson person.

You really like to go around labeling other posters, don't you? Rather than engage in reasonable discussion, let's just slap a label on them.

Your impact on what eventually happens with the Russell Wilson signing is precisely ZERO. Same as mine. I don't think either one of us is going to be on a short list for front office jobs anytime soon. It's just a discussion board.

So how about relax and let the FO do their thing, and have fun with the discussion, instead of getting overly attached to any particular outcome and labeling anyone who doesn't see it the same as you? Maybe actually respond to some of the points made,

My opinion is that Wilson's agent is not handling this in a smart way, but the truth is, it's all posturing at this point, and nobody really knows what's happening except the direct participants, JS, probably PC, then RW and his agent, and the Seahawks FO inner circle.

So, Would everyone rather have one more SB win, with a $20M salary cap advantage and then lose Russell after a year or two of franchise tagging... Or have Russell and contend for the next 5 years straight but lose in the playoffs each time (less overall team talent) under the salary cap and not reach the SB? Not saying those are the only outcomes, but I think it's how PC and JS might be looking at it. Overpaying at one position can be crippling to important depth at other positions.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Ok, guys let's just not focus on other posters motives.

:thcoffee:

 

[olyfan63]

Funny how folks like Tical presume Wilson was made a good qb by PC and Bevell. Both coaches have not schemed plays for a scrambling playmaker before nor have they ever had one like Wilson at the qb position.

On the other hand Wilson have been making these plays since high school. He was an excellent scrambling passer at NC State often passing 30 times in a 5 wide set. He brought his game to Wisconsin where his playmaking made him an instant sensation among a legion of football fanatics who viewed the running game and defense as key to success and that quarterbacks could be mere game managers. A town where Darell Bevell was One of those game managers who at one time became a hero for running for a touchdown. Russell Wilson changed the offensive philosophy in Wisconsin for a brief time just as he's done in Seattle.

So who made who? This question and an existing attitude to discredit Wilson might be partly to blame for Wilson's tweets.

Bevell and Carroll adapted the offense to add the Read-Option for Russell, after seeing RG3 be successful with it.

Wilson's game has strengths and weaknesses, like any mortal. John Schneider, Carroll, and Bevell saw the strengths in his game and chose to draft him and mold the offense around his skills set.

There are things Russell doesn't do as well and the last offensive play of SB XLIX showed one of them. That one, in my mind, is 95% on Bevell for asking Wilson to use a non-strength instead of his strengths of mobility and decision-making. Sometimes the RW adoration gets so strong that people give him magical powers he in truth does not possess. His human powers already do verge on magical, and those are good enough most of the time. Just not on that play. Among other things, he was too short to see Butler lurking back there. That is an experience thing, and I'm sure RW is unlikely to ever make that mistake again.That was a play where his height worked against him. And because he had no clue Butler was there, RW put the ball in a very poor place that allowed the pick to occur. Listen to RW on video, right after the pick, "where did he come from??!!" in absolute disbelief, because he couldn't see Butler.

I don't think there is a pure case to be made either way that RW is self-made or was made by Bevell and Carroll. However, it's possible he doesn't even get on the field, especially as a rookie, on another team. If nothing else, give Carroll credit for betting the farm on RW and standing by him.

 

[jlwaters1]

^^^^ I don't know if you're deliberately misreading what I wrote or doing so accidentally, so I don't really know how to respond.

Sorry.

Sorry but, your comparison is ridiculous, everything else you posted was pretty good. But Alex Smith and Russell WIlson are nothing alike.

Smith is a check-down-Charlie- His career YPA is 6.6, He's had just 1 season over 7.2- 2012 =8.0 YPA

Wilson's worst year- 2014 = 7.7 YPA, In 2013 =8.2, 2012 =7.9, with a career 7.9 mark.

This suggest that Wilson takes more shots downfield, and completes longer passes, Whereas Smith is content to check it down for modest gains. Infact that a longstanding criticism of SMith is that he's gunshy and doesn't take many chances.

Furthermore, Wilson has been much more accurate than Smith has throughout their career. Lastly, Wilson makes big plays in big games. Go back to the last 2 NFC title games 2013- Wilson completes a 30+ TD pass on 4th down to take the lead, 2014- Wilson completes a 40+ yard pass in OT to win the game against the Packers. Would Smith have made those plays? I highly doubt it, he wouldn't have taken the chance IMO. I mean what signature game winning plays has Smith done? I can't think of anything remarkable, he's a good system QB, but provide any flash or brilliance in the clutch IMO.

 

[NINEster]

^^^^ I don't know if you're deliberately misreading what I wrote or doing so accidentally, so I don't really know how to respond.

Sorry.

Sorry but, your comparison is ridiculous, everything else you posted was pretty good. But Alex Smith and Russell WIlson are nothing alike.

Smith is a check-down-Charlie- His career YPA is 6.6, He's had just 1 season over 7.2- 2012 =8.0 YPA

Wilson's worst year- 2014 = 7.7 YPA, In 2013 =8.2, 2012 =7.9, with a career 7.9 mark.

This suggest that Wilson takes more shots downfield, and completes longer passes, Whereas Smith is content to check it down for modest gains. Infact that a longstanding criticism of SMith is that he's gunshy and doesn't take many chances.

Furthermore, Wilson has been much more accurate than Smith has throughout their career. Lastly, Wilson makes big plays in big games. Go back to the last 2 NFC title games 2013- Wilson completes a 30+ TD pass on 4th down to take the lead, 2014- Wilson completes a 40+ yard pass in OT to win the game against the Packers. Would Smith have made those plays? I highly doubt it, he wouldn't have taken the chance IMO. I mean what signature game winning plays has Smith done? I can't think of anything remarkable, he's a good system QB, but provide any flash or brilliance in the clutch IMO.

Smith I argue is more accurate than Wilson (and other QBs) under 15 yards. Wilson moves the ball better in chunks yes, but as far as spreading the ball around Alex is underrated. Look at that pats blowout last year. If Smith didn't have that ability he would be unable to start for any team in the league, just think about it. Wilson doesn't cut up defenses with that finesse, because if he did he'd be the undeniable best QB in the league.

Smith is gun shy yes but has been able to throw the long ball well when needed. Unfortunately Rocky Bernard crushed his shoulder and spirit in Seattle in '07. Before that Smith was anything but a check down Charlie.

He had that famous Saints playoff game, and put up 44 without Jamaal Charles on that Colts playoff game, only to have his defense surrender 45 to Luck.

His last game at Century Link was impressive. A fourth down conversion to Vernon. A bomb to Crabtree on 3rd down to get a winning FG.

When was the last time Smith lost to Seattle? Pete's first game ? Haha.

Wilson is better than Alex but not by a lot. If ppl here think Alex is better than the QB who replaced him, how bad can he be?

 

[rideaducati]

^^^^ I don't know if you're deliberately misreading what I wrote or doing so accidentally, so I don't really know how to respond.

Sorry.

Sorry but, your comparison is ridiculous, everything else you posted was pretty good. But Alex Smith and Russell WIlson are nothing alike.

Smith is a check-down-Charlie- His career YPA is 6.6, He's had just 1 season over 7.2- 2012 =8.0 YPA

Wilson's worst year- 2014 = 7.7 YPA, In 2013 =8.2, 2012 =7.9, with a career 7.9 mark.

This suggest that Wilson takes more shots downfield, and completes longer passes, Whereas Smith is content to check it down for modest gains. Infact that a longstanding criticism of SMith is that he's gunshy and doesn't take many chances.

Furthermore, Wilson has been much more accurate than Smith has throughout their career. Lastly, Wilson makes big plays in big games. Go back to the last 2 NFC title games 2013- Wilson completes a 30+ TD pass on 4th down to take the lead, 2014- Wilson completes a 40+ yard pass in OT to win the game against the Packers. Would Smith have made those plays? I highly doubt it, he wouldn't have taken the chance IMO. I mean what signature game winning plays has Smith done? I can't think of anything remarkable, he's a good system QB, but provide any flash or brilliance in the clutch IMO.

Smith I argue is more accurate than Wilson (and other QBs) under 15 yards. Wilson moves the ball better in chunks yes, but as far as spreading the ball around Alex is underrated. Look at that pats blowout last year. If Smith didn't have that ability he would be unable to start for any team in the league, just think about it. Wilson doesn't cut up defenses with that finesse, because if he did he'd be the undeniable best QB in the league.

Smith is gun shy yes but has been able to throw the long ball well when needed. Unfortunately Rocky Bernard crushed his shoulder and spirit in Seattle in '07. Before that Smith was anything but a check down Charlie.

He had that famous Saints playoff game, and put up 44 without Jamaal Charles on that Colts playoff game, only to have his defense surrender 45 to Luck.

His last game at Century Link was impressive. A fourth down conversion to Vernon. A bomb to Crabtree on 3rd down to get a winning FG.

When was the last time Smith lost to Seattle? Pete's first game ? Haha.

Wilson is better than Alex but not by a lot. If ppl here think Alex is better than the QB who replaced him, how bad can he be?

The Alex Smith comparison is just plain dumb. Let me guess, you niner fans are also comparing Keeporpick to Brady, Brees, Rodgers and Manning...oh wait...http://www.ninersnation.com/2015/6/25/8 ... ent-greats

What a bunch of complete and utter garbage.

As far as Alex being better than Kaepernick? They both suck, so that is like saying colon cancer is better than liver cancer...they can both be pretty bad.

 

[Popeyejones]

The Alex Smith comparison is just plain dumb.

Just as a reminder, what I actually said was that if Wilson starts slowing down with age and doesn't progress at all his absolute floor is Alex Smith.

That's not an Alex Smith comparison. It's saying that if everything with Wilson goes wrong he will never end up being worse than Alex Smith.

Likewise I said that if Kaepernick starts slowing down with age and doesn't progress at all his absolute floor is still lower than Alex Smith.

It's not really the insult or unreasonable statement you're making it out to be.

 

[hawknation2015]

The Alex Smith comparison is just plain dumb.

Just as a reminder, what I actually said was that if Wilson starts slowing down with age and doesn't progress at all his absolute floor is Alex Smith.

That's not an Alex Smith comparison. It's saying that if everything with Wilson goes wrong he will never end up being worse than Alex Smith.

Likewise I said that if Kaepernick starts slowing down with age and doesn't progress at all his absolute floor is still lower than Alex Smith.

It's not really the insult or unreasonable statement you're making it out to be.

Kaepernick is already worse than Alex Smith.

 

[Rocket]

I axe ya, when is Clayton not "baffled"?
That is the real question.

 

[NINEster]

^^^^ I don't know if you're deliberately misreading what I wrote or doing so accidentally, so I don't really know how to respond.

Sorry.

Sorry but, your comparison is ridiculous, everything else you posted was pretty good. But Alex Smith and Russell WIlson are nothing alike.

Smith is a check-down-Charlie- His career YPA is 6.6, He's had just 1 season over 7.2- 2012 =8.0 YPA

Wilson's worst year- 2014 = 7.7 YPA, In 2013 =8.2, 2012 =7.9, with a career 7.9 mark.

This suggest that Wilson takes more shots downfield, and completes longer passes, Whereas Smith is content to check it down for modest gains. Infact that a longstanding criticism of SMith is that he's gunshy and doesn't take many chances.

Furthermore, Wilson has been much more accurate than Smith has throughout their career. Lastly, Wilson makes big plays in big games. Go back to the last 2 NFC title games 2013- Wilson completes a 30+ TD pass on 4th down to take the lead, 2014- Wilson completes a 40+ yard pass in OT to win the game against the Packers. Would Smith have made those plays? I highly doubt it, he wouldn't have taken the chance IMO. I mean what signature game winning plays has Smith done? I can't think of anything remarkable, he's a good system QB, but provide any flash or brilliance in the clutch IMO.

Smith I argue is more accurate than Wilson (and other QBs) under 15 yards. Wilson moves the ball better in chunks yes, but as far as spreading the ball around Alex is underrated. Look at that pats blowout last year. If Smith didn't have that ability he would be unable to start for any team in the league, just think about it. Wilson doesn't cut up defenses with that finesse, because if he did he'd be the undeniable best QB in the league.

Smith is gun shy yes but has been able to throw the long ball well when needed. Unfortunately Rocky Bernard crushed his shoulder and spirit in Seattle in '07. Before that Smith was anything but a check down Charlie.

He had that famous Saints playoff game, and put up 44 without Jamaal Charles on that Colts playoff game, only to have his defense surrender 45 to Luck.

His last game at Century Link was impressive. A fourth down conversion to Vernon. A bomb to Crabtree on 3rd down to get a winning FG.

When was the last time Smith lost to Seattle? Pete's first game ? Haha.

Wilson is better than Alex but not by a lot. If ppl here think Alex is better than the QB who replaced him, how bad can he be?

The Alex Smith comparison is just plain dumb. Let me guess, you niner fans are also comparing Keeporpick to Brady, Brees, Rodgers and Manning...oh wait...http://www.ninersnation.com/2015/6/25/8 ... ent-greats

What a bunch of complete and utter garbage.

As far as Alex being better than Kaepernick? They both suck, so that is like saying colon cancer is better than liver cancer...they can both be pretty bad.

I think this season will show how good these 3 QBs really are. Once Wilson becomes a high teen/low 20 millionaire , the comparisons will be fair.

IMHO, Wilson is closer in talent to Kaepernick than you think. Def closer to him than a Rodgers, Brady, etc.

People forget 2012 and the 2013 NFCC so quickly.

Answer this:

Who had a better defense the last two years? SEA or SF?
Who was better RB? Lynch or Gore.
Which QB and RB ran more?
Which QB threw more?

If Wilson really is super elite, 20-25 APY is essentially the same. They wouldn't deny Rodgers, Peyton, Roethlisberger, etc that money if that's what it took.

But if he's perceived to be a rung below, that money will hurt the team.

Schneider and Allen will speak the unbiased truth. We're all just loudmouth spectators, but they cut the checks and take the heat for the team.

Niner fans were a bit stunned at how hard Baalke was with Smith in 2011-2012 offseason and Kap with his contract.

Most GMs are pretty damn neutral when it comes down to it.

 

[Seahawkfan80]

I axe ya, when is Clayton not "baffled"?
That is the real question.

/thread winnah.....he he he

 

[rideaducati]

The Alex Smith comparison is just plain dumb. Let me guess, you niner fans are also comparing Keeporpick to Brady, Brees, Rodgers and Manning...oh wait...http://www.ninersnation.com/2015/6/25/8 ... ent-greats

What a bunch of complete and utter garbage.

As far as Alex being better than Kaepernick? They both suck, so that is like saying colon cancer is better than liver cancer...they can both be pretty bad.

I think this season will show how good these 3 QBs really are. Once Wilson becomes a high teen/low 20 millionaire , the comparisons will be fair.

IMHO, Wilson is closer in talent to Kaepernick than you think. Def closer to him than a Rodgers, Brady, etc.

People forget 2012 and the 2013 NFCC so quickly.

Answer this:

Who had a better defense the last two years? SEA or SF?
Who was better RB? Lynch or Gore.
Which QB and RB ran more?
Which QB threw more?

If Wilson really is super elite, 20-25 APY is essentially the same. They wouldn't deny Rodgers, Peyton, Roethlisberger, etc that money if that's what it took.

But if he's perceived to be a rung below, that money will hurt the team.

Schneider and Allen will speak the unbiased truth. We're all just loudmouth spectators, but they cut the checks and take the heat for the team.

Niner fans were a bit stunned at how hard Baalke was with Smith in 2011-2012 offseason and Kap with his contract.

Most GMs are pretty damn neutral when it comes down to it.

Paying a QB only hurts a team that doesn't draft well or is paying money to a bad QB. $25 million/year for Russell is better use of money than Kaepernick at $17 million/year. Russell has already been offered over $21 million/year which would rank him THIRD highest paid QB in the league, so there is the perception of Russell from the Seahawk front office.

People seem to believe that the Seahawks are low balling Russell which is not true. Russell's agent seems to think he can change the way the NFL does contracts and wants the entire contract guaranteed.

 

[Popeyejones]

Kaepernick is already worse than Alex Smith.

As a passer? I think they're close despite playing incredibly different games.*

I know it's an INCREDIBLY unpopular thing to point out, but as passers last year these three guys were pretty indistinguishable.

They all completed 61-65% of their passes, all passed for within 200 yards of each other, all had between 18 and 20 TD passes, and all threw between 6 and 10 INTS.

Smtih leads in two of those categories (highest comp % and lowest ints) and Wilson leads in two of those categories (passing yards and passing TDs) , but again, it's really splitting hairs.

I know how unpopular pointing this out is and I expect to take my lumps for it, but this is PRECISELY the types of comparisons the Hawks are thinking about when balking at giving Wilson 20 million + per year, let alone 25.


*For my money, Kaepernick >>> Smith because 1) he adds value as a runner that Smith doesn't, 2) he's still young enough to be potentially developing as a QB whereas Smith is fully formed as who he is at this point, 3) Kaepernick doesn't inhibit the types of throws you can draw up in offensive game planning nearly as much as Smith does; Smith can be a totally proficient passer in one very particular offensive scheme, but that's it.

 

[hawknation2015]

Kaepernick is already worse than Alex Smith.

As a passer? I think they're close despite playing incredibly different games.*

I know it's an INCREDIBLY unpopular thing to point out, but as passers last year these three guys were pretty indistinguishable.

They all completed 61-65% of their passes, all passed for within 200 yards of each other, all had between 18 and 20 TD passes, and all threw between 6 and 10 INTS.

Smtih leads in two of those categories (highest comp % and lowest ints) and Wilson leads in two of those categories (passing yards and passing TDs) , but again, it's really splitting hairs.

I know how unpopular pointing this out is and I expect to take my lumps for it, but this is PRECISELY the types of comparisons the Hawks are thinking about when balking at giving Wilson 20 million + per year, let alone 25.


*For my money, Kaepernick >>> Smith because 1) he adds value as a runner that Smith doesn't, 2) he's still young enough to be potentially developing as a QB whereas Smith is fully formed as who he is at this point, 3) Kaepernick doesn't inhibit the types of throws you can draw up in offensive game planning nearly as much as Smith does; Smith can be a totally proficient passer in one very particular offensive scheme, but that's it.

No, you're 100% correct.

Kaepernick = Wilson.

:sarcasm_off:

 

[brimsalabim]

The title of this thread makes me chuckle a bit because there are just so many things that baffle Clayton... Take hair conditioner for instance..