Did Carroll get outcoached at the end?

[TwistedHusky]

Clearly outcoached.

This will also permanently put Carroll behind Bill no matter what Carroll does.

That is sad by itself.

 

[NFSeahawks]

I don't think PC was outcoached.....the guy jumped the route and the execution was not there.

They interviewed the guy who picked it off. He said they saw this play on tape and knew it was a tendency. So yeah...outcoached.

Burn.

 

[Hyak]

If you assume you run the same play, I think if you run it with either Willson or Matthews instead of Kearse, it probably works.

Just because they knew it was coming doesn't mean it's being outcoached. The Seahawks impose their will on teams all of the time. The key to that play is effectively running the pick element of it. Browner stonewalled Kearse enabling Butler to jump the route.

I will say this after watching the replay a few times. It sure looks like Browner could have been called for defensive holding on that play.

 

[timmat]

So many times I've heard the talking point from our players and coaches that it's not really about the other team - it's about us trusting our strengths and executing. In a split second, they took Bellicheck's bait, and went away from that. Tough to swallow that we got out-foxed by not following one of our own mantras, and not going down swinging with our strength.

 

[Hyak]

Bottom line is that if that play is executed properly, Kearse's rub route slows down Butler enough to where Lockette catches it clean for a TD.

Again it's not the personnel grouping or call that I would have done but that play works if executed properly even if NE knows it's coming.

 

[jachba]

The Hawks got out coached as a whole the entire game. The Patriots scored 28 points by doing the same thing for 4 quarters, and our offense went bizarro when we needed it to be called like it has been for the past 3 years. The Pats got yards over and over with the same concepts, and managed to get Simon on an island over and over instead of Maxwell. We stayed the course and got burned repeatedly.

When you get 14 points scored on you in the 4th, it's because you got figured out.

The Pats followed the Chargers' blueprint.

Dink and dunk with chunks of yards. Get 5 or 6 yards every play and move the chains. Then attack with the TE.

It was the exact same plan, and the Hawks were beaten by it all over again.

It's the only strategy that can beat this Defense, and it needs to be fixed.

It's funny you mentioned that. I had the same thought late in the first quarter, except that in this case I was hoping your defense would put a stop to it. In the case of the Chargers, teams adjusted to the strategy by clogging up the short passing lanes and forcing the offense to go more vertical, knowing that their OL, depleted as it was by injuries and lack of depth couldn't protect Rivers long enough for anything to develop. Forcing Brady to have to attempt to go deep might have made the difference.

 

[capncrunch]

If the play goes incomplete then Carroll/Bevell then have enough time to run two more plays of anything they want - including two run plays. If they don't run a pass play then if it gets stopped they will likely only get one more run play and that's it.

A quick slant is a low risk play. RW could have thrown the ball better (threw it at Lockette's body rather than leading him as much as he did, and/or threw it lower) but ultimately Butler made a great play...he did his homework and made an outstanding read, reaction and willed it his way.

A quick slant to the end zone against a rookie CB...I think you take that match up most of the time if you can. Its a bread and butter play that we make 7/10 times, with incompletions almost every other time. Not a horrible call...just bad luck, slightly poor execution and a great play.

Yeah. It's not the take I'm hearing all over the airwaves today, but I agree with this post. The pass at the end of the first half was risky and it paid off. The touchdown to Baldwin could have been a running play too. We don't always run when close to the goal line. We likely run two with Lynch and pass two if it had come to that many attempts in that series after the circus catch. That was also a pretty risky toss downfield that payed off, barely.

 

[NFSeahawks]

The Hawks got out coached as a whole the entire game. The Patriots scored 28 points by doing the same thing for 4 quarters, and our offense went bizarro when we needed it to be called like it has been for the past 3 years. The Pats got yards over and over with the same concepts, and managed to get Simon on an island over and over instead of Maxwell. We stayed the course and got burned repeatedly.

When you get 14 points scored on you in the 4th, it's because you got figured out.

This. +1

 

[jake206]

Honestly...I believe Carroll when he says it was the "right" pass call against the coverage... Right being routine call that Seahawks would typically call on that down and distance. The DB Butler made a great break on the ball, that wasn't his normal assignment.

 

[hawk45]

Honestly...I believe Carroll when he says it was the "right" pass call against the coverage... Right being routine call that Seahawks would typically call on that down and distance. The DB Butler made a great break on the ball, that wasn't his normal assignment.

And if you ignore the fact that we telegraphed the play with the formation as indicated by multiple Patriots including the game-winning DB himself, as well as the fact that you depend on Kearse to roll right up through Browner, that sounds like a legitimate defense of the playcall.

 

[timmat]

I also seem to recall it was pointed out the Pats had the worst short yardage interior run D in the NFL this year. They knew the only chance was to bait us into a passing situation, hope we went with a familiar formation, and make a play. Separation is in the Preparation - and it seems they were prepared for this sort of scenario more than we were.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Well as 90% of fans on here blame Bevel an not Wilson or Carroll. I would say he didn't get out coached. He just simply decided not to coach at all. He just stood there an watched the Super Bowl go down the drain.

 

[brimsalabim]

There are some who think Belichick outcoached Carroll at the end. He put in his goal-line package against the Seahawks' trips personnel -- almost goading them to throw (which they did). By not calling a time-out, he put Carroll in a position to make a decision with only one timeout left and the clock ticking down. If they called a run, and didn't get in, they would likely have called a timeout, and would also have forced Seattle to try at least one pass play on 3rd/4th down.

I'm not 100% sure if I'm sold on that theory, but it's reasonable.

What the hel! other package would you expect Belichick to put in on his goal lime besides his goal line package? Of course he out coached Pete. It's not even debatable. He freaking pants Pete! That TO sure did us a lot of good holding on to it like that too.

 

[brimsalabim]

Well as 90% of fans on here blame Bevel an not Wilson or Carroll. I would say he didn't get out coached. He just simply decided not to coach at all. He just stood there an watched the Super Bowl go down the drain.

Actually this sounds about right.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Well as 90% of fans on here blame Bevel an not Wilson or Carroll. I would say he didn't get out coached. He just simply decided not to coach at all. He just stood there an watched the Super Bowl go down the drain.

Football is not different than any team game, when you lose it's not all one person's fault.

Could Carroll have switched up some coverage schemes and maybe blitzed more when he saw his D line not getting to Brady anymore in the 4th after Avril went out?

Could Wilson have done better on the last four drives of the 4th quarter which resulted in punt, punt, punt, interception?

Yes, and yes. But changing schemes and doing things differently doesn't equate to success. So in the end we still had a chance to win, and that chance was blown by an O-coordinator that tried to get cute instead of just doing what he should have.

If we had it to Marshawn three times and the Pats stopped us? Then you tip your hat to the Patriots for a fantastic goal line stop, and maybe there's a little should have, could have. But this was a screw up of biblical proportion, and 90% of it DOES lay at the feet of Bevell.

 

[furi0usbee]

Carroll 100% got out-coached at the end. The buck stops with him. With the Patriots defense on the INT play, there is NO WAY on earth that play should have ever been run. You call TO. You audible, you throw the ball away, you do anything but that play. Patriots had the PERFECT defense for that play. Hoping Browner and Butler get caught up in a pick play, and Butler can't make a play on the ball? Was that the plan?

And I blame Wilson almost as much as Carroll. Go watch that play. Wilson had his eyes on the receiver the entire time. His head/eyes were locked on from the snap. Butler had a line on that pass before it was even released. If you want the arm movement of Wilson in slow-mo, when his arm is cock halfway, Butler starts his break. If you are going to run that play, at least maybe give a quick head fake to Lynch to maybe get Butler's eyes off yours. But Wilson just telegraphed that pass the whole way, and the only surprise there would have been if Butler didn't intercept it.

So Carroll gets the most blame, but Wilson should have called TO or threw the ball away. Carroll may have been mad, but he may have saved them a SB title.

 

[Popeyejones]

I think he largely out-coached P.C. UNTIL the last 30 seconds of the game.

This meme that the Pats had called the right defense for a rub slant is ridiculous. Goal line man coverage is exactly the coverage you DON'T want to be in for a rub slant (you'd want to be in a 3-4 Cover 2 zone).

The Pats should have called a timeout and didn't. The Hawks called the perfect play for the defense and were also correctly using the clock in the situation (26 seconds and 1 timeout).

The Pats got outcoached on the play, but an amazing play was made.

 

[Mike 4G]

I think he largely out-coached P.C. UNTIL the last 30 seconds of the game.

This meme that the Pats had called the right defense for a rub slant is ridiculous. Goal line man coverage is exactly the coverage you DON'T want to be in for a rub slant (you'd want to be in a 3-4 Cover 2 zone).

The Pats should have called a timeout and didn't. The Hawks called the perfect play for the defense and were also correctly using the clock in the situation (26 seconds and 1 timeout).

The Pats got outcoached on the play, but an amazing play was made.

One thing is for sure, if we make it in, it isn't Pete that was outcoached. The fact the Pats didn't call a timeout could have been their doom. I will never understand why they didn't call one. There is no way they knew they would get the INT. Huge gamble on both ends.

 

[50yrpatsfan]

Nah, we overthunk it.

Went for the ideal scenario of clock management rather than focusing on just securing the points with the best matchup.

I think we just lost the forest for the trees and out thought ourselves.

We also were playing for fourth down when probably 2 tries would have been sufficient.

Except the last five times Lynch carried from the 1 he only scored once. 1/5.

What about from the 2? How about the 3? I seem to recall punching one in earlier in the same game and getting a 4 yard run on the previous play.

The 1/5 is not as relevant as you would like because they were different teams in different situations. Patriots were the worst team in the league in power situations. This was the fourth quarter and the defensive line was tired.

I think what's more relevant is that in both the 1st and 3rd quarter, on 3rd and 1 situations, the Patriots stuffed Lynch for no gain. That combined with the 1 for 5 stat quoted above was enough to cast doubt on the success of a Lynch run at that point.

The Pats run D in the rz is excellent, especially the jumbo goal line package. They can line up Wilfork, Siliga, and Branch - all about 340 lbs and pretty quick. Chris Jones and Chandler Jones are extremely quick, and Ninkovich is always blowing up plays. I think Lynch had a 1 in 4 chance of scoring from the 1, at best. Maybe Wilson running would have had a better shot at it.

 

[marko358]

I think what's more relevant is that in both the 1st and 3rd quarter, on 3rd and 1 situations, the Patriots stuffed Lynch for no gain.

It was a 3rd and 2 in the 1st quarter.

3rd and 2 at SEA 24 (10:14) (Shotgun) M.Lynch up the middle to SEA 24 for no gain (J.Collins).