Did Carroll get outcoached at the end?

[Popeyejones]

I think he largely out-coached P.C. UNTIL the last 30 seconds of the game.

This meme that the Pats had called the right defense for a rub slant is ridiculous. Goal line man coverage is exactly the coverage you DON'T want to be in for a rub slant (you'd want to be in a 3-4 Cover 2 zone).

The Pats should have called a timeout and didn't. The Hawks called the perfect play for the defense and were also correctly using the clock in the situation (26 seconds and 1 timeout).

The Pats got outcoached on the play, but an amazing play was made.

One thing is for sure, if we make it in, it isn't Pete that was outcoached. The fact the Pats didn't call a timeout could have been their doom. I will never understand why they didn't call one. There is no way they knew they would get the INT. Huge gamble on both ends.

Yep. Which is why I think we need to be really careful about considering the OUTCOME (which happens after all the coaching decisions are made) when talking about who had out-coached whom (which happened before anyone could know the outcome).

The Patriots had called the wrong defense for the Hawks play that was called, and didn't take a time out when they should have. Meanwhile, the Hawks made a play call (pass) that was very smart situational football and on top of that it was the RIGHT pass play against the defense the Patriots went out there with.

Purely from a strategy and coaching perspective the Hawks absolutely, unequivocally won that play.

Then the play itself actually happened. :lol: :lol:

 

[50yrpatsfan]

I think he largely out-coached P.C. UNTIL the last 30 seconds of the game.

This meme that the Pats had called the right defense for a rub slant is ridiculous. Goal line man coverage is exactly the coverage you DON'T want to be in for a rub slant (you'd want to be in a 3-4 Cover 2 zone).

The Pats should have called a timeout and didn't. The Hawks called the perfect play for the defense and were also correctly using the clock in the situation (26 seconds and 1 timeout).

The Pats got outcoached on the play, but an amazing play was made.

One thing is for sure, if we make it in, it isn't Pete that was outcoached. The fact the Pats didn't call a timeout could have been their doom. I will never understand why they didn't call one. There is no way they knew they would get the INT. Huge gamble on both ends.

The Hawks did a poor job with the play clock and TO's in that entire drive, using up 2 TO's cause they couldn't line up in time. I think BB sensed they were out of sync and put the pressure on them by letting the clock run and not letting them re-group. Carroll and Bevell seemed to be thinking to bleed the clock to give Brady less time instead of figuring out how to get a TD. Then all of a sudden they realized there wasn't enough time to run it on 2nd down.

 

[idahawks]

if we stuck to ground and pound on the last play like we have relied on for the last 3 years...we all would be sporting back to back shirts right now...

Lynch was 1/5 in his last five attempts from the one.

I keep hearing this stat. Sorry but it has no bearing on this play. Lynch also didn't get 1 yard on only 2 of the 17 previous carries in this game.

Pats also gave up touchdowns 4/5 plays this year from the 1. These are meaningless situational stats that rank right up there with uniform color and win% during a full moon.


If our O-line gave lynch just a tiny chance he would have got it in. In 2 or 3 tries I don't think there's any doubt.

 

[Popeyejones]

if we stuck to ground and pound on the last play like we have relied on for the last 3 years...we all would be sporting back to back shirts right now...

Lynch was 1/5 in his last five attempts from the one.

I keep hearing this stat. Sorry but it has no bearing on this play. Lynch also didn't get 1 yard on only 2 of the 17 previous carries in this game.

Pats also gave up touchdowns 4/5 plays this year from the 1. These are meaningless situational stats that rank right up there with uniform color and win% during a full moon.


If our O-line gave lynch just a tiny chance he would have got it in. In 2 or 3 tries I don't think there's any doubt.

I'm right with you up until the very end at which point you decide the stats aren't meaningless and Lynch would have gotten it in.

I mean, on two or three tries that's likely, but they didn't have time for three tries, and the strategy was the right one against the right defense, which would have preserved enough time (and enough uncertainty) to still allow for two tries.

 

[scutterhawk]

There are some who think Belichick outcoached Carroll at the end. He put in his goal-line package against the Seahawks' trips personnel -- almost goading them to throw (which they did). By not calling a time-out, he put Carroll in a position to make a decision with only one timeout left and the clock ticking down. If they called a run, and didn't get in, they would likely have called a timeout, and would also have forced Seattle to try at least one pass play on 3rd/4th down.

I'm not 100% sure if I'm sold on that theory, but it's reasonable.

IF Pete Carroll was "Outcoached", it wasn't by Belichick, it was by his own OC.
Bevell gave Belicheat a really easy play to Defend against, and the interception was just an exclamation point.

 

[brimsalabim]

If you believe Revis the BB had them practice defeating this same play. It also must have helped to have Browner out there to recognize the look. I'd say yes defiantly Bellichick out coached our staff. Our guys should have known better than to try that on Browner.

 

[Norn Iron man]

Much as I love Pete as coach there have been a few times wehere we've been up in games and tried to sit on the lead and let the defense see it out. Usually it works but the Patriots offense is too good and our defense was too banged up to do that on Sunday.
When we were 10 points up in the 4th quarter I couldn't understand why they didn't have some designed runs by Wilson. They just got so predictable - multiple runs up the middle by Lynch. The Patriots were actually blitzing run defenders because they knew it was coming. One more scoring drive in the 4th and the game was over. Wilson could have killed off that tired defense with his feet. We basically did what Green Bay did in the NFCC game.

 

[Ambrose83]

Much as I love Pete as coach there have been a few times wehere we've been up in games and tried to sit on the lead and let the defense see it out. Usually it works but the Patriots offense is too good and our defense was too banged up to do that on Sunday.
When we were 10 points up in the 4th quarter I couldn't understand why they didn't have some designed runs by Wilson. They just got so predictable - multiple runs up the middle by Lynch. The Patriots were actually blitzing run defenders because they knew it was coming. One more scoring drive in the 4th and the game was over. Wilson could have killed off that tired defense with his feet. We basically did what Green Bay did in the NFCC game.

Exactly.. bevell never goes for the jugular. . We see this event god damn time.. we get a 2 score lead... run run pass 3 and out... rinse repeat. Why not keep the pressure on and score?

 

[m0ng0]

yes

 

[Armchair Bronco]

Both Carroll and Bevell were seriously out-coached in this game by Belichick.

Instead of trying to score a touchdown by hook or by crook, Carroll and Bevell tried to finesse the clock and leave Brady & Company with no time on the clock to drive for a game-tying field goal.

In other words, Carroll and Bevell were already thinking beyond just scoring the go-ahead TD. Needing less than a yard ON THE NEXT PLAY, these guys decided to get 1 yard OVER THE NEXT THREE PLAYS!

Go back and look at what Bill Walsh told Joe Montana right before the pass to Dwight Clark (the pass that started the 49'ers Dynasty). He said if the guy's not open, just throw it away. Montana was specifically told NOT to risk an interception at all costs. Something tells me that neither Bevell nor Carroll said anything about interceptions to Wilson as they both assumed that their "tricky" play would shortly show everyone how smart they were.

 

[bjornanderson21]

Did we get outcoached at the end? Absolutely.

Carroll was still trying to be REACTIVE despite us having the ball at the 1 and the outcome of the game in our hands.

At that point you CANNOT be reactive and hoping/expecting for the OTHER TEAM to call a time out even if you think the other team should/will call a time out. You cannot be hoping the other team is stupid enough to NOT line up in a goalline stance on the frickin 1 yard line. What kind of defense was Pete expecting? Of course the Pats were gonna go goalline, that is the OBVIOUS move for them. Considering how much of an advantage we had over them in the run game it should not have mattered that the Pats were playing goalline.

The Hawks were in the driver's seat and needed to focus on what WE needed to do to get in the endzone, not:
a) whether the Pats were going to call a TO
b) what defense the Pats were going to run
c) what plays to run AFTER we throw the game away

The hawks needed to act, and the patriots should have been the ones REacting. We did not have the lead yet, so taking the lead required us to take charge and make it happen.

Instead, Pete wanted the pats to help us out, and he didn't consider the soul-crushing agony of throwing an INT. Him and bevell were (stupidly) afraid to run against the Pat's weak goalline stance (once again, being reactive) so they went with a risky play with less chance of success than just running up the gut.

There is absolutely no question we got outcoached. The sad part is that between Carroll, Bevell, and Wilson, not one of them used their head and said, "no way we run this BS play."

One of those 3 guys needed to say, "we need to run the damn ball." None of them did, and we suffered the most heart-breaking loss in Super Bowl history.

 

[bjornanderson21]

Both Carroll and Bevell were seriously out-coached in this game by Belichick.

Instead of trying to score a touchdown by hook or by crook, Carroll and Bevell tried to finesse the clock and leave Brady & Company with no time on the clock to drive for a game-tying field goal.

In other words, Carroll and Bevell were already thinking beyond just scoring the go-ahead TD. Needing less than a yard ON THE NEXT PLAY, these guys decided to get 1 yard OVER THE NEXT THREE PLAYS!

Go back and look at what Bill Walsh told Joe Montana right before the pass to Dwight Clark (the pass that started the 49'ers Dynasty). He said if the guy's not open, just throw it away. Montana was specifically told NOT to risk an interception at all costs. Something tells me that neither Bevell nor Carroll said anything about interceptions to Wilson as they both assumed that their "tricky" play would shortly show everyone how smart they were.

Agree completely.

Carroll has already said that he doesnt "coach against mistakes". He said he doesnt worry about INTs or Fumbles (which is odd because Carroll is known to preach protecting the ball).

So Carroll said he wasnt afraid of throwing an INT. He said it didnt even cross his mind.

To me that is a problem. If carroll had thought about the possibility of an INT he probably would have reached the same conclusion as most people: just give the ball to Lynch.

Not only was carroll outcoached, but he did it to himself. It wasnt that The Great Belichick outcoached Pete, it's that even Jim Mora would've outcoached Pete. The worst coaches in the NFL would have outcoached Pete.

For a minute, Carroll was the worst coach in the NFL, and it was the most important minute in our team's history.

Epic failure by Pete and Bevell