Is our QB giving us $20 million a season's worth?

[Anthony!]

Wilson is such an interesting QB.

He clearly, as stats are showing, does so much for the team.

But he also infuriates the crap out of you with some mind numbing decisions. He's great, but also flawed. the great thing about RW is he gives the impression he's both self aware and self motivated to continue to develop.

So.. is he worth $20 million? Absolutely, not just because of what he is but what he can be

I mostly agree with one exception. I will not call them "mind numbing decisions" when I think about them for 10 seconds to a minute and he has to make them often in under 1 second. Best I can do is "irritating decisions".

The b=problem is you can say that about every QB including Brady they all make some choices they make you say huh, In Russells case, it is trying to do too much because he has no choice.

 

[Anthony!]

That post about tiers is crazy. Which QB outside of Brady regularly wins his division? Can't think of a single one. Steelers maybe? Which QB has won divisional games consistently outside of Brady? Maybe Ben again? Brees, Rodgers, Rivers, Ryan, etc. all fail to meet your criteria.

Sounds like the only guy worth 25M is Brady and guess what he earns way less than that. Feels like another niners fan post framed as objective yet "subtly" denigrating our QB.

This is one of those college classes were there is no curve.

If everyone is supposed to fail, that's what will happen.

However, the way the market rates are set, if you don't pay someone else will. So you pay.

Because ultimately winning regular season games and having a shot at the playoffs is better than trying to piece together a team with a game manager, great OL/RB, great defense. That latter combination wins SB so infrequently that it's hard to consistently pull off. Right now, looking at Jacksonville on this one.

Wilson appears in two consecutive SBs and then next two (three?) years doesn't get past the divisional round.

Coincidentally he got paid right in between those last two SBs and last two playoff appearances.

Many of his similarly paid peers are in a similar boat without any SB appearances. Matt Stafford, Joe Flacco, Andy Dalton, Romo was....etc.

Shouldn't take it so personally.

Wilson worth $20M+ to get good numbers and Seahawks into post season -- yes.
Wilson worth $20M+ to advance Seattle deep into postseason with team built around him -- right now, no.

Cam Newton technically broke this rule by going to the SB on his first season of the contract extension.

But then last year the team stunk.

So is he worth it?

He was absolutely the first year. Last year no. This year, don't know.

On a year by year basis, this question can be answered just by looking at Cam Newton.

once again you make crap up and say nothing, Its not that we take is personally we just don't like people making lies up to su9ite themselves, Fact he is making up over 80% of our offensive yards and over 96% of our offensive TDs a higher % than any other QB in the game or in the SB era that proves he is worth the money period

 

[SoulfishHawk]

He's one of the best QB's in football and flat out carries the team, all the time. Hell yes he's worth the $.

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

He's a great franchise QB. Name one QB drafted since RW that you would rather pay 20mil a year to?

 

[OrangeGravy]

So you start out by saying you were watching Oakland with a great oline and rb... then you ask if Wilson is worth 20 million... You are aware that Derek Carr is paid 25 million a year, right?

Yep, Carr starts costing $25 million/year next year against the cap. And the Raiders already have a losing season with that OL and running game OP is touting.

Wilson is "worth" $20 million a year because of what the market dictates. Some people were clamoring to get rid of him because of the cost, but few teams have quarterbacks that are even decent from year to year, much less good or great. Russell Wilson is "worth $20 million a year because:

Drew Stanton (and really, Carson Palmer)
Tyrod Taylor
Mitchell Trubisky
Brock Osweiler
Blake Bortles
Jay Cutler
Bryce Petty
T.J. Yates
Brett Hundley
Jacoby Brissett
DeShone Kizer (maybe his fortunes will look up, but man)

These guys suck. They suck. That's eight teams without even serviceable QBs, because they can't find anyone or their guy is injured.


Then we have this batch:

Kirk Cousins
Eli Manning
Philip Rivers
Derek Carr
Alex Smith
Andy Dalton
Joe Flacco
Matt Stafford

These guys are somewhere on the spectrum from meh to really good depending on the guy and year. But none are reasonably consistently good, and these guys are almost all making Wilson money or better.

There's some younger guys (Winston, Mariotta, Goff, Wentz) that it will take a little while longer to gauge. And there are your really good to great quarterbacks.

Wilson is worth it because the probability of finding someone to replace him that will be anywhere near as good as him is really low. When was the last time a non-Patriots team in the AFC East had a really good quarterback from year to year? How about the NFC West? How about the AFC South?

Sure, you might get that occasional 2000 Ravens run, but if you don't have at least a good quarterback you're not going to do well from year to year and a have a good shot at winning a Super Bowl. And good quarterbacks or better are hard to come by. Which is why they get paid so much.

The AFC East outside the pats has to have had the worst run in the history of the NFL of Starting QBs since brady has been there..I know an article written in the offseason said Cutler was the 43rd QB to start in the AFC East in the Brady era, which itself is freaking INSANE...

Dolphins
John Beck, Daunte Culpepper, A.J. Feeley, Jay Fiedler, Gus Frerotte, Trent Green, Brian Griese, Joey Harrington, Chad Henne, Cleo Lemon, Ray Lucas, Matt Moore, Chad Pennington, Sage Rosenfels, Ryan Tannehill and Tyler Thigpen.

BILLS
Drew Bledsoe, Brian Brohm, Matt Cassel, Trent Edwards, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Kelly Holcomb, Rob Johnson, Thaddeus Lewis, J.P. Losman, EJ Manuel, Kyle Orton, Tyrod Taylor, Jeff Tuel and Alex Van Pelt

JETS
Brooks Bollinger, Quincy Carter, Kellen Clemens, Brett Favre, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Greg McElroy, Chad Pennington, Bryce Petty, Mark Sanchez, Geno Smith, Vinny Testaverde and Mike Vick.

If you were to make a top 5...I dont even know where you would start.

Pennington is prob the best QB out of all those when he was playing but was derailed by injury. Favre was pretty old and played ok. Sanchez had an ok run.

This list above is the reason the Patriots have so many playoff appearances and superbowls because their division is so god awful that they are almost guaranteed a bye just because Brady is inf better than any other QB that has played in the AFC LEast

^^^TRUTH

 

[vin.couve12]

Skimmed through this and saw what I thought I would. The percentage of the offense stuff doesn't really hold water. If he was the QB that crazies think he is or can be then he would be threatening yardage and touchdown records a la some of the guys who direct an offense to something like 45 to 55 passing TDs. He's certainly not lacking in targets that have put up enormous numbers and the OL pass blocking isn't near as bad as it's made out to be if the QB could stay in the pocket, show real pocket presense, and generally see, while also conducting the offense to a much larger degree.

Everyone wants their QB to be that guy, but you really only have about 3 of them all time maybe. That's just the way it is and RW isn't that guy. He's different.

He's a playmaking game manager.

I don't really think any QB outside of a few is worth 20 mil and I don't think RW is. Maybe 15 to 16 mil would probably be about right.

Either way, the percentage of the offense argument is pretty meaningless when it comes to payscale though. It only highlights ineptitude in the run game, which also reflects on the front office personnel decisions, head coach, and OC, all for multiple, multiple reasons.

 

[vin.couve12]

That said, I know there's the whole yearly inflation rate too. It's disgusting what teams are paying for QBs these days. Almost all of them aren't even worth a top tier RB, which is a hell of a lot cheaper and makes it even worse.

 

[Anthony!]

Skimmed through this and saw what I thought I would. The percentage of the offense stuff doesn't really hold water. If he was the QB that crazies think he is or can be then he would be threatening yardage and touchdown records a la some of the guys who direct an offense to something like 45 to 55 passing TDs. He's certainly not lacking in targets that have put up enormous numbers and the OL pass blocking isn't near as bad as it's made out to be if the QB could stay in the pocket, show real pocket presense, and generally see, while also conducting the offense to a much larger degree.

Everyone wants their QB to be that guy, but you really only have about 3 of them all time maybe. That's just the way it is and RW isn't that guy. He's different.

He's a playmaking game manager.

I don't really think any QB outside of a few is worth 20 mil and I don't think RW is. Maybe 15 to 16 mil would probably be about right.

Either way, the percentage of the offense argument is pretty meaningless when it comes to payscale though. It only highlights ineptitude in the run game, which also reflects on the front office personnel decisions, head coach, and OC, all for multiple, multiple reasons.

You know I foed you but figured I would see if you actually had something worth reading other than your hateraid, But nope FYI He is the first NFL QB in the SB era to account for over 80% of his teams offensive yards, and over 95% of his teams offensive so there is your records. As to your whole the oline is not that bad well sorry he is the most hit, hurried and sacked Qb in the NFL that means it is bad, and the rest well basically every expert disagrees with you so, that kind of makes your post moot. So thanks for playing.

 

[hawknation2017]

Skimmed through this and saw what I thought I would. The percentage of the offense stuff doesn't really hold water. If he was the QB that crazies think he is or can be then he would be threatening yardage and touchdown records a la some of the guys who direct an offense to something like 45 to 55 passing TDs. He's certainly not lacking in targets that have put up enormous numbers and the OL pass blocking isn't near as bad as it's made out to be if the QB could stay in the pocket, show real pocket presense, and generally see, while also conducting the offense to a much larger degree.

Everyone wants their QB to be that guy, but you really only have about 3 of them all time maybe. That's just the way it is and RW isn't that guy. He's different.

He's a playmaking game manager.

I don't really think any QB outside of a few is worth 20 mil and I don't think RW is. Maybe 15 to 16 mil would probably be about right.

Either way, the percentage of the offense argument is pretty meaningless when it comes to payscale though. It only highlights ineptitude in the run game, which also reflects on the front office personnel decisions, head coach, and OC, all for multiple, multiple reasons.

The percentage offense stat can be misleading (unless it is being used to demonstrate "value" to a particular offense that is great). However, Wilson is #1 in the NFL in total TDs and #3 in total yards. He is certainly deserving of his salary and is (luckily for us) underpaid in comparison to at least 10 other QBs.

Wilson has succeeded at being prolific in face of numerous obstacles: an incompetent play caller, a porous offensive line lacking in talent, injuries (both to himself and teammates), etc.

 

[IndyHawk]

Skimmed through this and saw what I thought I would. The percentage of the offense stuff doesn't really hold water. If he was the QB that crazies think he is or can be then he would be threatening yardage and touchdown records a la some of the guys who direct an offense to something like 45 to 55 passing TDs. He's certainly not lacking in targets that have put up enormous numbers and the OL pass blocking isn't near as bad as it's made out to be if the QB could stay in the pocket, show real pocket presense, and generally see, while also conducting the offense to a much larger degree.

Everyone wants their QB to be that guy, but you really only have about 3 of them all time maybe. That's just the way it is and RW isn't that guy. He's different.

He's a playmaking game manager.

I don't really think any QB outside of a few is worth 20 mil and I don't think RW is. Maybe 15 to 16 mil would probably be about right.

Either way, the percentage of the offense argument is pretty meaningless when it comes to payscale though. It only highlights ineptitude in the run game, which also reflects on the front office personnel decisions, head coach, and OC, all for multiple, multiple reasons.

I like this take..A very good answer :2thumbs:

 

[vin.couve12]

Skimmed through this and saw what I thought I would. The percentage of the offense stuff doesn't really hold water. If he was the QB that crazies think he is or can be then he would be threatening yardage and touchdown records a la some of the guys who direct an offense to something like 45 to 55 passing TDs. He's certainly not lacking in targets that have put up enormous numbers and the OL pass blocking isn't near as bad as it's made out to be if the QB could stay in the pocket, show real pocket presense, and generally see, while also conducting the offense to a much larger degree.

Everyone wants their QB to be that guy, but you really only have about 3 of them all time maybe. That's just the way it is and RW isn't that guy. He's different.

He's a playmaking game manager.

I don't really think any QB outside of a few is worth 20 mil and I don't think RW is. Maybe 15 to 16 mil would probably be about right.

Either way, the percentage of the offense argument is pretty meaningless when it comes to payscale though. It only highlights ineptitude in the run game, which also reflects on the front office personnel decisions, head coach, and OC, all for multiple, multiple reasons.

The percentage offense stat can be misleading (unless it is being used to demonstrate "value" to a particular offense that is great). However, Wilson is #1 in the NFL in total TDs and #3 in total yards. He is certainly deserving of his salary and is (luckily for us) underpaid in comparison to at least 10 other QBs.

Wilson has succeeded at being prolific in face of numerous obstacles: an incompetent play caller, a porous offensive line lacking in talent, injuries (both to himself and teammates), etc.

My argument about his pay isn't really relative to other QBs. Joe Flacco sure as hell isn't worth over 20 mil, for instance. And again, I'd rather have a Gurley, Elliot, etc. type back at 10 mil than pay a QB twice that much.

You literally don't need that guy. It's a myth and a lie.

 

[vin.couve12]

Speaking of which, does Gurley get 12 mil next sign? What do y'all think?

 

[adeltaY]

The market sets the value so saying a player earning X dollars isn't worth it doesn't work. The dollar value is meaningless unless you consider it relative to the market value. Every legitimate franchise QB will reset the market. That's why Carr became the highest paid then Stafford did right after. The next good QB to sign will reset it again.

 

[hgwellz12]

I'm half tempted to flood the thread with RWs EXTENSIVE catalog of highlight reel plays since he got here in 2012. But I will just post this one:

[youtube]sjAlCHmc9As[/youtube]

He's had more INCREDIBLE, "HOW IN THE ENTIRE WORLD DID HE DO THAT.?" moments in 5 short years than ALL of our previous QBs combined. For that alone, I am extremely happy. Some of the most awesome football the NFL fans will ever see in their life is courtesy of Mr. Wilson.

No one, being COMPLETELY HONEST with themselves, should even be able to question if he deserves what he's paid. He's must watch TV. EVERYONE HERE has been waiting for him since before Hasselbeck, or at the very least since Hass left.

 

[hgwellz12]

The market sets the value so saying a player earning X dollars isn't worth it doesn't work. The dollar value is meaningless unless you consider it relative to the market value. Every legitimate franchise QB will reset the market. That's why Carr became the highest paid then Stafford did right after. The next good QB to sign will reset it again.

Its a shame that even needs to be posted so often. But great post.

 

[Anthony!]

Skimmed through this and saw what I thought I would. The percentage of the offense stuff doesn't really hold water. If he was the QB that crazies think he is or can be then he would be threatening yardage and touchdown records a la some of the guys who direct an offense to something like 45 to 55 passing TDs. He's certainly not lacking in targets that have put up enormous numbers and the OL pass blocking isn't near as bad as it's made out to be if the QB could stay in the pocket, show real pocket presense, and generally see, while also conducting the offense to a much larger degree.

Everyone wants their QB to be that guy, but you really only have about 3 of them all time maybe. That's just the way it is and RW isn't that guy. He's different.

He's a playmaking game manager.

I don't really think any QB outside of a few is worth 20 mil and I don't think RW is. Maybe 15 to 16 mil would probably be about right.

Either way, the percentage of the offense argument is pretty meaningless when it comes to payscale though. It only highlights ineptitude in the run game, which also reflects on the front office personnel decisions, head coach, and OC, all for multiple, multiple reasons.

I like this take..A very good answer :2thumbs:

Of course you would you the same person

 

[Anthony!]

The market sets the value so saying a player earning X dollars isn't worth it doesn't work. The dollar value is meaningless unless you consider it relative to the market value. Every legitimate franchise QB will reset the market. That's why Carr became the highest paid then Stafford did right after. The next good QB to sign will reset it again.

Its a shame that even needs to be posted so often. But great post.

Agreed great post, but the Domers will be the Domers

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Not only is it the market for top QB's, if you can't see how much he is worth the $, not sure you ever will.
He literally carries the team. Before, people would claim it was because of the Running game and D that he was successful. Um.....he has NO running game, a weak O Line and the D has been very up and down due to incredible injuries. Yet, here he is on the doorstep of 10 or more wins for the 6th straight season.

 

[adeltaY]

Speaking of which, does Gurley get 12 mil next sign? What do y'all think?

He shouldn't and probably won't get that much. There are very compelling arguments some Seahawks twitter guys have been making about RBs being replaceable. Something feels off about that, but I can't really prove it. I think it doesn't apply to Marshawn because he still leads the league in broken tackles since 2012 or something like that, even though he missed a year. I can't think of another RB that could've run at an elite level behind our OL.

Nonetheless, with Gurley you can see that he was good in 2015, crap in 2016, and fantastic this year. I think that coincides more with the improved OL and McVay's scheme.

As for Zeke, the stats have shown that the Cowboys' rushing attack is as productive with him as without him, as long as Tyron Smith is playing. I was talking to my buddy who's a Cowboys fan when I was in Dallas for the game and we agreed they should just run Zeke into the ground through his fifth year and draft a new RB. Especially given his character concerns.

The numbers for the Jags with and without Fournette are essentially the same too.

 

[vin.couve12]

Wouldn't necessarily disagree regarding Gurley (altgough I wouldn't say he was "crap" in 2016), but you'll probably have the same absurd inflation rate with QBs.

I also don't necessarily disagree with the OL affecting RBs. Rawls in latter 2015 and Collins in Baltimore reflect that. Neither RB is all that talented relative to a top tier RB that can offset some pretty bad OL play. Bad OL play, however, is more common than really talented RBs though. There's probably a formula there that isn't all that hard on paper, but hard to get the right pieces in cohesion.