JS - "The best drafting GM in the past 20 years!"

[Sgt. Largent]

I think it's obviously still arrow up for him and he's got PLENTY of time to further refine and develop, but given the package of picks the Hawks gave up for him, so far, as a WR at least, he's gotta be a bit of disappointment. That ABSOLUTELY doesn't mean it has to stay that way though.

Not sure how you can come to this conclusion when all the stats you referenced don't take into account Lockett's special teams contributions, which are pro bowl level.........that bumps his success into FAR above "disappointment" level, and squarely into successful to very successful draft pick.

That's why it's never wise to look at stats in a vacuum when it comes to evaluating NFL talent, because so many other factors should be taken into consideration.

 

[jammerhawk]

I think we got spoiled with Pete and John's first couple of drafts, but the last 2-3 is average to above average for most teams competing for SB's, especially one's like this that have rosters very hard to crack. Starters, depth and in the case of guys like Lockett and Clark, elite talent.

This is true and a very valid point but its what we have to go on for the last 4 drafts. I just think that some of the things JS does in the draft is very unconventional and doesnt make much sense. I know people will say that its a Seahawk thing but I dont buy into that. Passing over higher ranked talent for reaches on a constant basis is infuriating sometimes. Why not pick some of the higher graded players when your in the position to do so? We restocked our defensive backfield, but I think we could have done so with some better players. Oh well. Wait and see is all we can do.

Did you see the post endzorn contributed today about this draft tool called Slaytics? Quite interesting. Uses the Sparq tool that we all know our FO has followed, but then it's combined with this freak quotient. The post link spells it out thoroughly. Most of our draft picks are in the upper tier of this formula.

Sioux would you be kind enough to post a link to this endzornpost? Sure sounds like it is well worht reading.

 

[Popeyejones]

Chris -- if I was saying that "he will be a failure" as you claim I wouldn't have said repeatedly that the arrow is still pointing up for him, he still has plenty of developmental time, the book isn't yet written on him, etc., etc., etc.

Jville-- when talking WR production receptions, yards, and TDs are "cherry picked" stats? No, they're the three first stats that anyone trying to be remotely objective about WR production would look at it every time. If I had left off TDs cuz for WRs they're pretty random (case in point Lockett going from six to one) I could kinda understand a an argument for cherry picking but I didn't because people tend to include them when talking WR production. If you have other stats you'd like to draw up that aren't receptions, yards, and TDs and aren't "cherry picked" nobody is stopping you, and on a messageboard bringing more info to a conversation is always a good thing, IMO.

Largent -- absolutely he provides value in the return game and was electric in 2015. Our conversation however was about if the Hawks had room for young guys to contribute among the Seahawks 22 offensive and defensive starters, and why I like Lockett as a player but didn't mention him with Frank Clark as a player that was stuck behind someone. If you wanna talk about something else now that's fine, but that I wasn't talking about things that our conversation wasn't about isn't all that surprising.

In any case, tempers seem to be running pretty hot in here so I'll respectfully bow out of the thread.

Later.

 

[Jville]

Anybody curious about how well 49er drafts matched up with the Seahawks 8) .... Anyone? >>> [urltargetblank]https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/sports/nfl-draft-values/?utm_term=.749423416fa6[/urltargetblank]

Overall, the Seahawks drafted players who were 14% better than expected. That beats the 49ers, whose players were 5% worse than expected. (1996 thru 2016)

No reason to dismiss well earned recognition of Seahawk achievements.

 

[sc85sis]

When he knocks a draft out of the park without Scot McCloughan's insight, i'll jump on board. So far, he hasent even come close.

Unfazed by data or detailed analysis, the quoted poster continues to push a wildly cynical narrative with only weak rhetoric to lean on in his 129th thread of the week.

Anyway, I don't buy the "Scot McCloughan built the team" crap. He's an amazing talent evaluator, but you seem to think Pete and John just took his big board and drafted who he said to draft.

It isn't a realistic view. It's overly simplistic and although it fits your little shtick, it simply doesn't hold up when you take more than 5 seconds to ponder it.

Sorry, I cant jump on your wagon that every pick and action our FO does is some form of genius. Lets take that 5 seconds and elaborate on the last 4 drafts. Very mediocre and vanilla with very few hits. Better drafts with McCloughan or without him? Coincidence? I think not. Like I said, JS has some work to do before he gets the credit some bestow upon him around here. Will this draft be the turning point? Guess we'll wait and see.

Better drafts when Pete was fresh from actively recruiting players to USC or not? That is the advantage we no longer have, and as good an evaluator Scot M. can be, losing Pete's firsthand knowledge of college players has been a far bigger loss the last few years. He was directly responsible for Sherman, Browner, Doug Baldwin, Malcolm Smith and Mike Morgan, Tate, Irvin and trading for MarShawn. Also, Anthony McCoy, Lawyer Milloy (whom he'd coached in NE), Big Mike Williams, and I am probably missing some.

One last edit, and this one isn't for typos: there is a potential glimmer of hope on the horizon in terms of getting better intel in college players. Even though Pete personally doesn't have that recruiting knowledge, he is well positioned to pick the brains of guys who do. Sarkisian is at Alabama. Eddie O. is at LSU. Some of his former players are coaching in college and high school. He has strong ties still at USC, the Trojans are once again in the national picture and off sanctions, and they are recruiting top talent. UW is also in the national picture and in the Hawks backyard. All of that helps with both the draft and signing UFDAs.

 

[hawkfan68]

When he knocks a draft out of the park without Scot McCloughan's insight, i'll jump on board. So far, he hasent even come close.

Unfazed by data or detailed analysis, the quoted poster continues to push a wildly cynical narrative with only weak rhetoric to lean on in his 129th thread of the week.

Anyway, I don't buy the "Scot McCloughan built the team" crap. He's an amazing talent evaluator, but you seem to think Pete and John just took his big board and drafted who he said to draft.

It isn't a realistic view. It's overly simplistic and although it fits your little shtick, it simply doesn't hold up when you take more than 5 seconds to ponder it.

Sorry, I cant jump on your wagon that every pick and action our FO does is some form of genius. Lets take that 5 seconds and elaborate on the last 4 drafts. Very mediocre and vanilla with very few hits. Better drafts with McCloughan or without him? Coincidence? I think not. Like I said, JS has some work to do before he gets the credit some bestow upon him around here. Will this draft be the turning point? Guess we'll wait and see.

Better drafts when Pete was fresh from actively recruiting players to USC or not? That is the advantage we no longer have, and as good an evaluator Scot M. can be, losing Pete's firsthand knowledge of college players has been a far bigger loss the last few years. He was directly responsible for Sherman, Browner, Doug Baldwin, Malcolm Smith and Mike Morgan, Tate, Irvin and trading for MarShawn. Also, Anthony McCoy, Lawyer Milloy (whom he'd coached in NE), Big Mike Williams, and I am probably missing some.

One last edit, and this one isn't for typos: there is a potential glimmer of hope on the horizon in terms of getting better intel in college players. Even though Pete personally doesn't have that recruiting knowledge, he is well positioned to pick the brains of guys who do. Sarkisian is at Alabama. Eddie O. is at LSU. Some of his former players are coaching in college and high school. He has strong ties still at USC, the Trojans are once again in the national picture and off sanctions, and they are recruiting top talent. UW is also in the national picture and in the Hawks backyard. All of that helps with both the draft and signing UFDAs.

Good post sc85sis. Thanks for sharing the insight regarding Pete. One update, if I may, Sarkisian is no longer at Alabama. He's now the OC for the Atlanta Falcons. http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...n-named-offensive-coordinator-atlanta-falcons

 

[sc85sis]

Better drafts when Pete was fresh from actively recruiting players to USC or not? That is the advantage we no longer have, and as good an evaluator Scot M. can be, losing Pete's firsthand knowledge of college players has been a far bigger loss the last few years. He was directly responsible for Sherman, Browner, Doug Baldwin, Malcolm Smith and Mike Morgan, Tate, Irvin and trading for MarShawn. Also, Anthony McCoy, Lawyer Milloy (whom he'd coached in NE), Big Mike Williams, and I am probably missing some.

One last edit, and this one isn't for typos: there is a potential glimmer of hope on the horizon in terms of getting better intel in college players. Even though Pete personally doesn't have that recruiting knowledge, he is well positioned to pick the brains of guys who do. Sarkisian is at Alabama. Eddie O. is at LSU. Some of his former players are coaching in college and high school. He has strong ties still at USC, the Trojans are once again in the national picture and off sanctions, and they are recruiting top talent. UW is also in the national picture and in the Hawks backyard. All of that helps with both the draft and signing UFDAs.

Good post sc85sis. Thanks for sharing the insight regarding Pete. One update, if I may, Sarkisian is no longer at Alabama. He's now the OC for the Atlanta Falcons. http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...n-named-offensive-coordinator-atlanta-falcons

That's right, I forgot about that. It happened so quickly.

I need more sleep...

 

[TwistedHusky]

There is a weird narrative being promoted that ty he team is simply so deep that good players cannot break through. And supposedly that accounts for the low # of starters coming from some of these drafts.

The truth is that the team has a lot of average to below average contributors up and down the roster. Holes abound, so that argument is not supported by reality.

This is offset by a tremendous group of elite top level players but surrounding them is some very average talent.

 

[Josea16]

I concur! 8)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fan ... 765ef3398a

He's correct about the no reward thing. I sense jealousy and something wrong in Denmark. Dude pretty much nails what everyone considers off years like 2016 let alone a great year like 2015. Then you get years like 2012 which are rare and game changers and what I think 2017 will rival.

 

[cheese22]

For years I've wanted to record the draft, either in writing or on XVD, to track the draft gurus and their opinions immediately after the draft. Guys like Kuyper love to quote themselves on previous drafts but rarely point out their mistakes. How nice would it be to make a very nice living on covering a draft all year?

 

[Josea16]

For years I've wanted to record the draft, either in writing or on XVD, to track the draft gurus and their opinions immediately after the draft. Guys like Kuyper love to quote themselves on previous drafts but rarely point out their mistakes. How nice would it be to make a very nice living on covering a draft all year?

Never happen. !I's lito keep us interested. Understand the 2016 Seahawks issue wasn't the OL? It really is about the defense aw we totally nailed and own it.

 

[NINEster]

Carroll I think could be called the best GM style HC in the past 20 years along with Belichick. Schneider I see as a facilitator of a vision.

Chancellor, Sherman, Browner on average teams would have been good but probably not star players -- you can't hit 3 homeruns at the 5th rounder and lower. Earl Thomas was probably a no miss talent, and there wasn't a trade up needed to get to him (to my knowledge).

Bennett and Avril are free agency. Mebane and Bryant are pre-Schneider to my knowledge.

Lynch was a trade.

OL picks haven't been special.

TE picks are decent.....Miller, Wiilson, Moeaki (sp?). Graham, if he counts is a push based on what it cost to get him and his overall production.

WRs.....Baldwin turned out pretty good. Lockett is very good. Kearse is ok.

RBs have been ok, but nothing of Lynch caliber or even Carlos Hyde.

So you have to look at defense really:

LB picks are good.......Wagner great, KJ Wright very good, Malcolm Smith good.

CBs have been system guys as most here will admit after the fact. Thurmond, Maxwell have gone on to less than impressive careers post SEA.

So who is really on Schneider draft wise?

Wilson? Wagner? Clark?

Some big names, but not a ton. He's only been drafting for 7 years now, so hard to call him best of last 20.

That the Seahawks became a great team real fast was really on their HC/GM combo, not GM.

Monitor how good these Falcons and 49ers defenses get with a similar scheme...

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Carroll I think could be called the best GM style HC in the past 20 years along with Belichick. Schneider I see as a facilitator of a vision. ..

IMO Schneider's strong suit as a drafting GM is exactly what we saw this year, the savvy to drop down what 5 picks and pick up 4 more picks...............and still get one of their guys?

Most GM's don't have the vision, creativity or balls to wheel and deal like that.

Pete's strengths are more on the scouting and development side. He's been around so long he knows exactly the type of players he wants, physically and personality makeup wise to fit into his schemes and positions.

 

[Sun Tzu]

Carroll I think could be called the best GM style HC in the past 20 years along with Belichick. Schneider I see as a facilitator of a vision. ..

IMO Schneider's strong suit as a drafting GM is exactly what we saw this year, the savvy to drop down what 5 picks and pick up 4 more picks...............and still get one of their guys?

Most GM's don't have the vision, creativity or balls to wheel and deal like that.

Pete's strengths are more on the scouting and development side. He's been around so long he knows exactly the type of players he wants, physically and personality makeup wise to fit into his schemes and positions.

^^^ Agree 100% with this.

 

[chris98251]

Carroll I think could be called the best GM style HC in the past 20 years along with Belichick. Schneider I see as a facilitator of a vision.

Chancellor, Sherman, Browner on average teams would have been good but probably not star players -- you can't hit 3 homeruns at the 5th rounder and lower. Earl Thomas was probably a no miss talent, and there wasn't a trade up needed to get to him (to my knowledge).

Bennett and Avril are free agency. Mebane and Bryant are pre-Schneider to my knowledge.

Lynch was a trade.

OL picks haven't been special.

TE picks are decent.....Miller, Wiilson, Moeaki (sp?). Graham, if he counts is a push based on what it cost to get him and his overall production.

WRs.....Baldwin turned out pretty good. Lockett is very good. Kearse is ok.

RBs have been ok, but nothing of Lynch caliber or even Carlos Hyde.

So you have to look at defense really:

LB picks are good.......Wagner great, KJ Wright very good, Malcolm Smith good.

CBs have been system guys as most here will admit after the fact. Thurmond, Maxwell have gone on to less than impressive careers post SEA.

So who is really on Schneider draft wise?

Wilson? Wagner? Clark?

Some big names, but not a ton. He's only been drafting for 7 years now, so hard to call him best of last 20.

That the Seahawks became a great team real fast was really on their HC/GM combo, not GM.

Monitor how good these Falcons and 49ers defenses get with a similar scheme...

Well everyone you seen it in writing the 49ers can't beat them so they will join them and adopt our schemes and systems probably with a few tweaks, Falcons are from our tree so they get a pass on the system stealing

 

[hawkfan68]

Carroll I think could be called the best GM style HC in the past 20 years along with Belichick. Schneider I see as a facilitator of a vision.

Chancellor, Sherman, Browner on average teams would have been good but probably not star players -- you can't hit 3 homeruns at the 5th rounder and lower. Earl Thomas was probably a no miss talent, and there wasn't a trade up needed to get to him (to my knowledge).

Bennett and Avril are free agency. Mebane and Bryant are pre-Schneider to my knowledge.

Lynch was a trade.

OL picks haven't been special.

TE picks are decent.....Miller, Wiilson, Moeaki (sp?). Graham, if he counts is a push based on what it cost to get him and his overall production.

WRs.....Baldwin turned out pretty good. Lockett is very good. Kearse is ok.

RBs have been ok, but nothing of Lynch caliber or even Carlos Hyde.

So you have to look at defense really:

LB picks are good.......Wagner great, KJ Wright very good, Malcolm Smith good.

CBs have been system guys as most here will admit after the fact. Thurmond, Maxwell have gone on to less than impressive careers post SEA.

So who is really on Schneider draft wise?

Wilson? Wagner? Clark?

Some big names, but not a ton. He's only been drafting for 7 years now, so hard to call him best of last 20.

That the Seahawks became a great team real fast was really on their HC/GM combo, not GM.

Monitor how good these Falcons and 49ers defenses get with a similar scheme...

First of all, my condolences that your favorite team had one of the worst ever GMs...Trent Baalke. We as Seahawk fans know how an incompetent GM (er...Tim Ruskell anyone) can set back a franchise. Now Baalke is gone...your favorite team has hope. More competition in the division is good so hope that 49ers turn things around quickly.

With that said, I think I understand the point you are making, please correct me if I'm wrong, you're stating that while JS seems to have great success with mid-to late draftees and UDFAs, he struggles in the earlier rounds. I agree with that, if that is the case. For whatever reason, he hasn't done well with the higher picks. Therefore, it doesn't bother me when he trades down because his success is generally from 2nd and on. Earl Thomas is his glowing first round draft gem...Earl was a no-brainer at #14 in 2010 draft too. Thomas was a top-10 pick by all accounts and the Seahawks got lucky he was there (I believe that was the Broncos pick they got in a trade). I could be wrong on that. Earl Thomas has turned out to be a "superstar" but none of his other high picks (1st round) have reached that level.

 

[NINEster]

Carroll I think could be called the best GM style HC in the past 20 years along with Belichick. Schneider I see as a facilitator of a vision.

Chancellor, Sherman, Browner on average teams would have been good but probably not star players -- you can't hit 3 homeruns at the 5th rounder and lower. Earl Thomas was probably a no miss talent, and there wasn't a trade up needed to get to him (to my knowledge).

Bennett and Avril are free agency. Mebane and Bryant are pre-Schneider to my knowledge.

Lynch was a trade.

OL picks haven't been special.

TE picks are decent.....Miller, Wiilson, Moeaki (sp?). Graham, if he counts is a push based on what it cost to get him and his overall production.

WRs.....Baldwin turned out pretty good. Lockett is very good. Kearse is ok.

RBs have been ok, but nothing of Lynch caliber or even Carlos Hyde.

So you have to look at defense really:

LB picks are good.......Wagner great, KJ Wright very good, Malcolm Smith good.

CBs have been system guys as most here will admit after the fact. Thurmond, Maxwell have gone on to less than impressive careers post SEA.

So who is really on Schneider draft wise?

Wilson? Wagner? Clark?

Some big names, but not a ton. He's only been drafting for 7 years now, so hard to call him best of last 20.

That the Seahawks became a great team real fast was really on their HC/GM combo, not GM.

Monitor how good these Falcons and 49ers defenses get with a similar scheme...

Well everyone you seen it in writing the 49ers can't beat them so they will join them and adopt our schemes and systems probably with a few tweaks, Falcons are from our tree so they get a pass on the system stealing

Ask Pete about his time tweaking George Seifert's "Elephant" (now called LEO) position back in '95-'96. :2thumbs: :irishdrinkers: :mrgreen: