Kasen Williams not making the team

[KiwiHawk]

I like how a fan who only sees pre-season games in which there were mostly 2nd- and 3rd-stringers playing can make the call better than the coaches who saw him every single practice of every single training camp over two pre-seasons and during the 2016 season when he was on the practice squad.

Kasen didn't tear it up in the pre-season, first of all because nobody tears it up in the pre-season because IT'S PRE-SEASON. Second of all, he had 4 receptions in one pre-season game, which is almost as important as Al Bundy's 4 TDs in a single game for Polk High School, which is an apt comparison because that was the last time either of them did anything even remotely noteworthy.

 

[AgentDib]

That point was that PC has ignored his own mantra in terms of competitiveness and the OP believed the Kasen Williams was an early example.

How competitive Kasen has been since then is entirely on topic to the subject of how competitive he was at the time.

We saw him make three? good plays in the preseason, and I personally saw him catch like one 15 yard pass at a training camp day in August. He also did some other things poorly. More importantly, there is a very, very, long list of actions that he took over the entire off-season that we did not see.

The fan narrative from UW homers (and I am one too) that we went with a worse player for some completely unexplained reason was silly at the time, and it looks even sillier today when we have further information about Kasen's contributions behind closed doors in other areas. Reaching for this fake narrative in order to justify an argument that Pete is going back on his philosophy just makes that new argument look tarnished and wrong.

 

[modernman]

Regardless whether Kasen was 'good' or not (I believe his biggest issues were ST contribution).....

The Seahawks were a better team 'scheme-wise' when he was on the field, why that is compared to the 53 we kept, can't say really, but I do know the offense opened up and had a different rhythm (up tempo?)..... god forbid we had cut tanner or other random Cable OL guy we signed off the street.....but no matter we cut him, and here we are.

 

[chris98251]

He is not here can't even understand why this thread got so much traction.

 

[LickMyNuts]

I'm positive now that the tipping point of the season was cutting Kasen Williams.

 

[Chapow]

IMO set this entire season up for failure. Do I think that Kasen Williams is any good? Not really. But it deviated from Pete Caroll's "always compete" mantra.

Here's the problem with this, you have no idea if Williams won the competition or not. Therefore, you have no idea if cutting him deviated from Pete's mantra or not. It sounds like you are assuming that he did win and for some unknown reason they decided to cut him anyway. It seems a lot more likely to me that he didn't win the competition.

Maybe there's more to "always compete" than what you think. We aren't privy to the vast majority of what goes on in practices, training camp, meetings, film study, conditioning, strength training, etc. The coaching staff has so much more information than we do.

It sounds like some of you guys think "always compete" means whoever makes some plays in preseason games makes the team. I don't think that's what it means. I also don't think it means whoever competes the hardest makes the team. Sometimes guys just aren't good enough no matter how hard they try.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Except the players called this one out.

They likely know what 'competing' is. And they seemed to believe or imply they believed, that Kasen was doing well there.

I have to assume the players know how production is valued & graded?

(It should also be mentioned that McEvoy was given a slot, and he sucks. As a WR. I was excited to get him because he did play some bone jarring hits out as a safety and I was hoping we would use him as a safety. But clearly, instead of competing - we had to run with measurables since McEvoy is pretty damn average to below average when it comes to actually doing the WR thing, catching the ball.

So how do you reconcile giving a slot to McEvoy or Darboh, who produced less than Kasen.

Whether Kasen is good enough is immaterial, we are not following the mantra that makes us attractive to FAs in the first place. And how many other great players are we missing because the FO is more interested in measureables or draft cost than results?

Always compete is BS, we do that same thing every other team does. Overvalue guys we paid more for, undervalue production vs potential, etc.

 

[chris98251]

Using that logic, why was Sherman playing with a Achilles' that was injured and bone spurs in the other leg when we just drafted a bunch of DB's and had Lane and some others on the roster and let him heal or have surgery. He could not break on the ball well and his run support and leg drive on tackles was not there.

 

[Chapow]

Except the players called this one out.

They likely know what 'competing' is. And they seemed to believe or imply they believed, that Kasen was doing well there.

I have to assume the players know how production is valued & graded?

OK, so you are saying that you think Kasen won the competition yet they cut him anyway? And you think that is more likely than he simply just did not win the competition? We're talking about a guy that has been a fringe roster/practice squad guy his entire time here.

And just because a couple players were surprised that he was cut, doesn't mean he won the competition. Kasen has been around awhile, maybe they were friends and they were bummed their friend didn't make it, I don't know. There are lots of possible reasons why guys wouldn't be happy about a teammate or friend not making it.

 

[OrangeGravy]

Except the players called this one out.

They likely know what 'competing' is. And they seemed to believe or imply they believed, that Kasen was doing well there.

I have to assume the players know how production is valued & graded?

OK, so you are saying that you think Kasen won the competition yet they cut him anyway? And you think that is more likely than he simply just did not win the competition? We're talking about a guy that has been a fringe roster/practice squad guy his entire time here.

And just because a couple players were surprised that he was cut, doesn't mean he won the competition. Kasen has been around awhile, maybe they were friends and they were bummed their friend didn't make it, I don't know. There are lots of possible reasons why guys wouldn't be happy about a teammate or friend not making it.

I agree. Players aren't always the best judges of roster moves. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. Without knowing individual motivations you can never tell. Now if there was a player walk out, I would say hell yeah they got it wrong. But a couple tweets and you never hear of it again doesn't convince me.

 

[chris98251]

If they really thought they made a mistake they could have resigned him also. Telling in itself.

 

[Steve2222]

lol people are still upset about Kasen? I wonder what team is going to pick up the future Hall of Famer?

What a dumb topic

Not the point being made though.

Although it’s hard to argue in hindsight he should’ve been kept

He could have been kept seeing as he’s currently a free agent. So no an argument can’t really be made....

Also I see the point he’s trying to make. And it’s not a good one seeing as no team in the NFL wants him. He’s just supposed to take up a precious roster spot because he made a few good plays in the preseason because of a “Always Compete” motto? Give me a break.

His point wasnt about what Kasen is now, but what he was in the preseason.

As I said, hindsight.

You think maybe the coaches knew then that he wasn’t a top 6 WR on their roster despite his few TDs in preseason? I’m pretty sure they did. There’s no hindsight needed.

Am I missing something? Did you guys have access to practice and the film study to see how he preformed there? You guys realize preseason performances usually hold little merit.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Except this is the same coaching staff that kept Lacy but cut Davis.

So the argument using 'appeal to authority' doesn't work well.

They make dumbass decisions on personnel almost regularly.

The only reason they aren't doing worse is they can still milk the fruits of Scott's work for a while longer, but those diamond in the rough lower round draft picks turning into star players story is pretty much over.

Again, nobody cares that Kasen was cut (well maybe Kasen), but it is the how/why and how it doesn't match up with the BS they spread about how everyone competes that matters. Because the reason UDFAs came here was because they got a fair shot, we know we won't get 1st choice of the UDFAs much longer though.

Ultimately Kasen is an offensive player, and I have no confidence in Bevel being able to use an offensive player well anyway. You could probably give him Steve Largent and Barry Sanders in their primes and he would still be doing Duck and Chuck calls he so loves. So I don't think Kasen would have changed much because we have Jimmy Graham and our idiot OC cannot use him right either (or at least takes 3 years to figure it out).

Still we are still talking about this action flying in the face of what they purport to be doing.

 

[JGreen79]

I think the biggest flaw is using preseason games as the sole purpose of competition. Maybe he didn't practice hard, focus in meetings, or study the playbook well enough. There's more to competing than just balling out in a preseason game.

 

[AgentDib]

So the argument using 'appeal to authority' doesn't work well.

I'm all for fans having their own opinions but the ridiculous part about this argument is that it is not about whether the move was correct with the benefit of hindsight. It's about whether the FO themselves believed that Kasen was the most competitive option in the preseason and then cut him anyway. Unless you know how to use Tarot cards or have inside sources deep within the front office then this is really an 'appeal to made up nonsense' argument.

 

[olyfan63]

Kasen Williams got outcompeted in the pre-season, in the total body of work the coaches were evaluating. Routes, blocking, catching, position meetings and understanding of the roles on particular plays.

Kasen Williams seems like a poor man's Christine Michael. Can do one thing well, but shaky at the rest.
Sure, Williams can win a few jump balls, but that role is already taken by Jimmy Graham.
Darboh, McEvoy, and the others do more for the team than Williams ever would, including actually block downfield. Williams doesn't get good separation so Wilson would never throw him the ball in games that count.

Williams has glaring flaws in his game and his strengths aren't enough to land him on any NFL team's 53 man roster.
It's amusing that some posters are convinced the Williams case is a counterexample to Pete's "always compete" mantra. Face it, Williams got out-competed. The other 31 NFL teams have since validated the Seahawks decision.

The Eddie Lacy/Alex Collins fiasco would be a much better poster child for a discussion of Pete & Co having a FAIL on the always compete mantra.

 

[themunn]

Except this is the same coaching staff that kept Lacy but cut Davis.

No coach on the planet is cutting a guy with a $5m+ cap hit for a guy who in his previous 2 seasons had compiled 54 carries for 108 yards at 2YPC, no matter how great he looked in practice or in preseason.

But they did keep the 7th round pick and put that guy on the practice squad, and in the end both of them won the starting job despite the fact that $5m+ guy was still on the roster.

That is EXACTLY what the philosophy is all about. It would have been easy enough for Carroll to stick with Rawls or Lacy given their experience, length of tenure on the team and cap hit. But both of them were eventually overtaken by guys who outcompeted and proved themselves.

 

[Seanhawk]

I think the biggest flaw is using preseason games as the sole purpose of competition. Maybe he didn't practice hard, focus in meetings, or study the playbook well enough. There's more to competing than just balling out in a preseason game.

And there's more to balling out in a preseason game than just catching a couple jump balls.

 

[Uncle Si]

You think maybe the coaches knew then that he wasn’t a top 6 WR on their roster despite his few TDs in preseason? I’m pretty sure they did. There’s no hindsight needed.

Am I missing something? Did you guys have access to practice and the film study to see how he preformed there? You guys realize preseason performances usually hold little merit.

Yes, I think you are missing something. But it doesn't seem like explaining it is going to make a difference.

The point the OP was making was that he believed the decision to let a player go who seemingly outperformed others who were kept was another in a line of contradictions to the philosophy outlined by the coach.

He made this point in hindsight (which I said numerous times).

you seem hell bent focusing on the decision itself, which was not really the question.

I didn't care about Kasen Wililiams then and I don't now. I did think the "has PC lost his way" was an interesting discussion to have

 

[gowazzu02]

Except this is the same coaching staff that kept Lacy but cut Davis.

No coach on the planet is cutting a guy with a $5m+ cap hit for a guy who in his previous 2 seasons had compiled 54 carries for 108 yards at 2YPC, no matter how great he looked in practice or in preseason.

But they did keep the 7th round pick and put that guy on the practice squad, and in the end both of them won the starting job despite the fact that $5m+ guy was still on the roster.

That is EXACTLY what the philosophy is all about. It would have been easy enough for Carroll to stick with Rawls or Lacy given their experience, length of tenure on the team and cap hit. But both of them were eventually overtaken by guys who outcompeted and proved themselves.

This X1000. But unfortunately you can't talk facts and sense with a number of people on this board, this thread being the gold star example of that.