Love the win. Tired of the OL.

Cartire

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Sgt. Largent":172vlsgv said:
Hawks46":172vlsgv said:
I also knew I'd see the second comment a lot. Here's the thing, Giacommini is a crap ton better than Britt is.

They're ready to run Breno out of town in NY, and people are predicting he's going to be cut. So not so sure about your statement.

At least with Britt, his upside validates him playing because he's only a rookie and should continue to improve. Breno was as good as he's ever going to get, and seeing him play this year says his best years are behind him.

I'm OK with Britt, as he's a REALLY good run blocker already, so pass pro should only get better and better.

Ive seen him play in NY, and he looks just the same. Powerful and mean. We could use that on the line right now. They are only complaining in NY because they are a 2 win team and their QB's makes so many mistakes that its impossible to tell if its the Oline or the QB's causing problems.
 

Kixkahn

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There were a few times that Wilson had a lot of time. Then the very next play they disappeared again. They need work so bad I can't even come up with a word to describe it.
 

brettb3

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Cartire":2mijsqkr said:
Sgt. Largent":2mijsqkr said:
Hawks46":2mijsqkr said:
I also knew I'd see the second comment a lot. Here's the thing, Giacommini is a crap ton better than Britt is.

They're ready to run Breno out of town in NY, and people are predicting he's going to be cut. So not so sure about your statement.

At least with Britt, his upside validates him playing because he's only a rookie and should continue to improve. Breno was as good as he's ever going to get, and seeing him play this year says his best years are behind him.

I'm OK with Britt, as he's a REALLY good run blocker already, so pass pro should only get better and better.

Ive seen him play in NY, and he looks just the same. Powerful and mean. We could use that on the line right now. They are only complaining in NY because they are a 2 win team and their QB's makes so many mistakes that its impossible to tell if its the Oline or the QB's causing problems.
I guarantee that people would be complaining about Breno if he were still here, like they were before he left.
 

bigskydoc

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It is tough to evaluate a zone blocking O-line play without the 22 view, but I will say this.

I felt the line play was about what I expected it to be this week. That is to say, they are gelling as a unit, they are slightly improved over the course of the season, but yes, of course they still have a ton of room for improvement.

Wilson actually had some really nice pockets to work with yesterday. He didn't always take advantage of them, and who can blame him. His mental clock is calibrated for poor protection.

Run blocking was good, though it wasn't our best effort to date. As usual, it appeared that we got off to a slow start, but things opened up in the second half as we wore the defense down.

The pre-snap penalties are just awful. We lead the league with 25 false starts compared to a league average of 16.31. Okung is our worst offender with 6 false starts for second worst in the league. For those of you pining for Giacomini, he never disappoints defensive coordinators who are counting on him not holding his water. He is tied for 3rd worst in the NFL with 5 false starts and he fits in nicely with his teammate Colon who leads the league with 7.

Sweezy has 4, Carpenter 2, Britt 3.

We are pretty much middle of the pack in holding penalties with 18 compared to a league average of 17.19. Guess which line leads the league in holding? That vaunted line down in Arlington. Maybe we aren't holding enough.
:sarcasm_off:


We are now in the toughest stretch for our O-line as we take on our division opponents who know us better than anyone else, are built and coached to maul O-lines, and who have almost a full season of tape to watch to pick out our weak spots. For example, Britt can be, and was, fooled with a delayed outside rush because he will get impatient and pinch in early to help out Sweezy and leave the flank uncovered. He doesn't have the speed or wingspan to make up for the "gap" he leaves and we haven't been helping him out with a tight end over there the last few games.

LJP's play has been solid at center, but he isn't the leader that we need at that position. We probably won't realize just how bad the effect of having him in at center is until Unger steps back in and we see what we have been missing. I suspect that a lot of the completely blown blocks by others (i.e. Carp last night, and to some degree Britt) are really on LJP not calling the right protection.

Carp has been the biggest disappointment. After a stellar first half of the season, he has reverted to his prior self. Lots of mental errors and poor judgement. He has been an absolute beast at times, but I think he suffers the most from not having Unger in there. If I am the Hawks this offseason, I would seriously consider moving Britt to Left Guard (Or Sweezy and move Britt in to the right guard spot) and drafting a right tackle who isn't weak on the flank.

Okung is Okung. He is solid when he is on, and his mental mistakes are worth the cost when you consider how solid his protection is on that side of the line when he is on. He may be overpaid next year, but unless we pull off some miracle, he needs to stay at left tackle. The falloff behind him is huge.

Sweezy continues to be a solid, if not particularly impressive Right Guard. He just does his thing. He needs to work on his communication with Britt so that Britt isn't unnecessarily pinching in to "help out."

Britt looks like a rookie, and it looks like defensive coordinators have figured out some of his weaknesses. We really need to give him some support on the edge when we go up against Arizona next week. He really looks like he would be better and more comfortable at Guard.

I have heard some people pumping up Bailey when he has come in relief. Yes, he has looked good and that is why he is a great backup. He can step in for a game or two and do a good job at most of the positions. Leave him in there for more than a game though, and defensive coaches will start planning for him. Then, he won't look as good as the guy he replaced.

- bsd
 

bigskydoc

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I almost forgot the biggest take away from this game is that Bevel isn't doing our offensive line any favors with his playcalling. When the defense knows what you are going to do three plays before you do it they have a pretty good chance of scheming a plan to defeat it and getting players onto the field to execute that plan.

-bsd
 

pmedic920

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Here is a serious question for our football spurts.

We have a QB that probably will never be a "pocket passer". I know that some plays are designed to roll out to one side or the other, and those have a specific protection. But how do you coach or teach an o line to pass protect, when you have a mobile/ scrambling QB?

I think a lot of the perception that our line stinks, relates directly to the fact that our guy is almost aways on the move. I think it's just his style, some of it because he needs to move to have a clear view of his lanes. I don't fault him, I actually enjoy that style. I remember the short Viking well, loved watching him.

Any way, how do you protect a guy that doesn't stand still?
 

Sgt. Largent

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pmedic920":8ye69o1k said:
Here is a serious question for our football spurts.

We have a QB that probably will never be a "pocket passer". I know that some plays are designed to roll out to one side or the other, and those have a specific protection. But how do you coach or teach an o line to pass protect, when you have a mobile/ scrambling QB?

I think a lot of the perception that our line stinks, relates directly to the fact that our guy is almost aways on the move. I think it's just his style, some of it because he needs to move to have a clear view of his lanes. I don't fault him, I actually enjoy that style. I remember the short Viking well, loved watching him.

Any way, how do you protect a guy that doesn't stand still?

I think this is part of it, I also think Russell creates some of the false start problems when he hesitates snapping the ball as the clock is running out.

Which is why I said I'd like the offense to run more tempo series so the line can get into a little rhythm. Not all the time, but maybe 2-3 in the first half. I think it would greatly help with the penalties, as well as blocking.
 

hawkfan68

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Once again the OL was horrid. They were pretty bad last week but not as bad as they were yesterday. Gave 5 sacks and it could have easily been 5 more had RW not had any mobility. Joe Flacco, Matt Stafford, Alex Smith, Philip Rivers, Tony Romo, Nick Foles and Tannehill would be all in the hospital behind a line like this. Absolutely should be a priority for upgrade. That includes assessing the coaches. Cable shouldn't be getting a pass because his line does well in run support...a lot of that success is also because of Lynch is able to run through tackles, etc.
 

sc85sis

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What's the max number of consecutive games we've actually had the same lineup on the line in the last 2-3 years? I agree they need to improve, but I also can't help thinking they'd be a lot better if they had more personnel consistency. Communication is key on the line.
 

Scottemojo

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I have a really hard time just saying suck offensive line without knowing more. Now, clearly I can recall Britt whiffing a couple times and Sweezy once, and Bailey too. But were they blitzes? Were there coverage sacks? Were there sacks where Russ held the ball a while?
 

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I love this whole thread, it's what I've been telling (yelling) people for the last two years.
They just look at me and go, "M'kay?". If it weren't for Houdini and the Beast, we'd be bottom feeders.
With a good O line, dare I say dynasty?
 

MontanaHawk05

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This is the same thread that pops up every time the Seahawks play a division opponent without Max Unger. The NFC West is the best pass-rushing division in the league and know exactly how to scheme for Russell Wilson. Without their starting center the line calls are bound to struggle, and with a rookie right tackle who has been far more responsible for pressure on Wilson than anyone else, well, it's not a surprise that you saw what you saw yesterday. It doesn't mean blow our first-round pick on yet another James Carpenter when we are severely lacking in the WR and TE corps.

As far as the penalties, well, the Seahawks haven't had a game like that for weeks. Don't act like it's been happening all this time. One-off, forget about it.
 

hawksfansinceday1

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MontanaHawk05":3j3j1qiq said:
This is the same thread that pops up every time the Seahawks play a division opponent without Max Unger. The NFC West is the best pass-rushing division in the league and know exactly how to scheme for Russell Wilson. Without their starting center the line calls are bound to struggle..............
Unfortunately I get the feeling from Pete's presser today (as reported faithfully by kidhawk) I don't think he's going to be back this week either. :(
 

kearly

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HawkerD":k1940bzw said:
You always pull out this BS stat. We are #6 because we have a beast at RB. There are Rarely holes where you get to the second level. It's on 24 t o break a tackle. Then there are DL players in the backfield hitting 24 about the same time he gets the ball.

Your like the wife of a alcoholic who thinks her husband drinks because he is under a lot stress

Lynch isn't the only RB on our team who's putting up good numbers, and their metric accounts for the performance of the RB to an extent. If you think it's all about Lynch, maybe you should look at Marshawn's numbers here in 2010.

Protection has had some rough games, SF included. It's a cost of doing business. You want to run the ball better than anyone while having a QB who holds the ball longer than anyone, while picking late in the draft every year, and this is what you get. Notice how you never hear Pete complaining about protection? He knows what he wants to do and knows what level of expectations are realistic.
 

kearly

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Aros":zrkhrynz said:
Natethegreat":zrkhrynz said:
I'm not sure how they determine their ratings but I have watched 4 or 5 Dallas games and their pass blocking is far far superior to ours.

AGREED.

Well Dallas' pass protection has been bad in their four losses. 14 sacks in four games. Overall, their sacks allowed per play is 16th in the league; FO's version (adjusted) is 19th.

Not saying they're pass pro is as bad as Seattle, but Dallas is the lower end of average. And this doesn't account for the benefits that Dez Bryant affords them when Romo is under pressure. The Bengals, Ravens, and Patriots are all vastly superior in terms of pass pro.

Where Dallas is awesome is their run blocking. Elite run blocking, mediocre pass pro. Close to Seattle on both rankings.
 

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Leee-roy":2mllanzs said:
I love this whole thread, it's what I've been telling (yelling) people for the last two years.
They just look at me and go, "M'kay?". If it weren't for Houdini and the Beast, we'd be bottom feeders.
With a good O line, dare I say dynasty?

Yep.
And when I see the Romos/Bradys/Mannings just chilling, eating sloppy Joes and sipping Cristal in the pocket it always makes me feel like we're the guy with the shiny new GTR that's parked 200 ft away from his apartment and the other guys have a nice sedan and SUV parked in a garage...with EXTRA room for a work bench.
OUR GTR NEEDS A GOTDAMN GARAGE, DAMMIT!
 

SomersetHawk

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Russell Wilson gets sacked an average of once every 10.4 passing attempts. The only teams worse than that are the Jaguars (8), Redskins (9.1), 49ers (8.9), Jets (10.1). That's pretty horrible whichever way you look at it.

I look at it this way. Russell Wilson is the best scrambling QB in the NFL, and whilst him holding onto the ball longer than any other QB has led to a fair amount of these sacks, his ability to evade them balances that out.

Clearly we compromise a lot of our passing game for a stout running game, so let's have a look at how some other teams with a top rushing game rank (I recognize that our rushing game is by some way the best, that's the benefit of having your QB run for over 750 yards).

The Jets rank next to us, and they have a similar sack rate (per 10.1 attempts). Wilson > Vick > Smith.

The Dallas Cowboys are everyone's favourite example of a good O-line, and I think it's justified. They've stunk it up in a few games where they were clearly outcoached, but for the most part, they look a really good unit. They're ranked third in rushing ypg, and their QB gets sacked once every 14.5 attempts (credit where it's due, Romo is one of the more evasive QBs in the league even with a bad back, but that's still a good line).

Houston Texans rank next in the run game. Their QB only gets sacked once every 17.7 attempts. Russell Wilson would lead them to Super Bowls.

Fifth are the Ravens, who IMO have the best line in football. I love seeing J-Force carving it up there, but it's hard to think Lynch wouldn't be doing even better behind that line, and Wilson might have himself 29 (29.3) attempts before getting sacked - that's what Flacco's getting.

Now this information is just based on sacks. It would be interesting/uncomfortable reading to include hits in the breakdown.

I don't want to come to the hasty conclusion that Cable and our O-line flat out suck (I've already said I'm not convinced I trust Cable to protect the future of this franchise - Russell Wilson), there's other things to consider here.

In our best year - Russell's first year, he was being afforded the best part of 12 attempts before taking a sack (11.9), however, he had Sidney Rice, Golden Tate, Doug Baldwin and Zach Miller to throw to, all of whom combined to miss only 3 games!

Russell's taken more coverage sacks this year than I can remember. Still, a healthy combination of those 2012 targets only afforded him an extra 1.5 attempts per game. Granted, it was his Rookie year, put third year Russell in that situation and it's feasible to think we'd probably have something more reminiscent of Dallas' 2014 stats. We'll never know, all I remember of that year was our O-line looking really solid down the stretch, and we had a 7th round DT playing RG for the first time.

Our passing game has undoubtedly got weaker since then, and in (negative) correlation with the rising sacks. Last year Russ was only afforded 9.25 attempts before being sacked, and if it's a surprise how it's got slightly better this year despite Russ looking worse, it shouldn't be. "Ladies and Gentlemen, introducing your starting left tackle... PAUL - MC - QUISTAN!!!"

71448889 display image

Anyway, my point is that the loss of WRs IS an acceptable argument for the Russell taking more punishment, not sure I had to make that point, but I'm pretty sure I'd seen people suggest otherwise/refuse to acknowledge it.

However, it's only a contributing factor. The sack rate's never been anything to write home about and we appear to have regressed since 2012. Whilst injuries have hurt our chances at progression, they're nothing new to contend with. Outside of Sweezy the guys Cable has bought in have left much to be desired, out of five starters three can't be trusted to stay healthy and our depth is ugly to say the least.

So much of our effectiveness appears to hinge on Unger, which is acceptable, but the amount of unforced mistakes we make without him is not. Zach Miller is a better pass protector than our second round draft pick.

I just don't think this is an acceptable state of things when we're about to make Russell Wilson the highest paid Seahawk in history and one of the highest in the NFL. Whilst this formula has led to success, it appears it's only a matter of time before it really hurts Russell, and subsequently us. Can we afford to keep taking that risk?

We've spent a lot of money trying to hit on offensive weapons like Rice and Harvin, but I'd rather we focused it on our O-line, I think that's ultimately going to be more beneficial to Russ and whoever we replace Lynch with.

Also, if Russ is serious about wanting to be the best in history, then taking some discount on the trust that we'll try and improve the offense will not hinder that ambition.
 
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