Mariners OFF-season thread

[Hasselbeck]

No one thinks 10 year contracts are a good idea, but when you're the Seattle Mariners and you've stunk the past 10-12 years, it's the only way a player of Cano's skill is going to sign with you.

So I get it, and I was OK with the signing, still am. Cano just needs a manager that knows how to motivate him.......cause Lloyd obviously wasn't doing it.

I agree that a team like the Mariners has to overpay for talent, but a past your prime 2B that feasted in a hitter friendly park? To lock him up until age 42?

Honestly trading him back to NY wouldn't be a bad thing.. they're the one team that could eat that contract. Only problem is they would want you to take back an equally s**t contract in Ellsbury.

Look at the contenders right now though in MLB.. KC was largely built from within with a few key players acquired via FA and trade. Houston is entirely from prospects and a dusting of FA/trade acquired talent. The Mets are primarily prospects. The Cubs. And on and on. Then the flip side you have the Dodgers, Red Sox, Yankees, Angels .. all the teams that have depleted farms and high payrolls. None of them have really won anything lately, save for a fluky title run by the Red Sox.. ironically fueled in large part due to a massive salary dump.

The M's continue to be in baseball no mans land with some really horrendous contracts to aging vets and a very very iffy farm. They are almost better off bottoming out for a few years just to rack up high draft picks and sell off whatever decent veteran talent they have for prospects. It's kind of a terrible way to present it to your fans though.. the notion that "hey we're probably going to lose 100 games for the next couple of years, but keep on coming out!" .. but over the long haul I think it's the only way the M's ever become relevant.

 

[Hawk-Lock]

Not that anyone really cares about the Mariners but they traded Trumbo to the Orioles for a catcher today.

 

[Uncle Si]

No one thinks 10 year contracts are a good idea, but when you're the Seattle Mariners and you've stunk the past 10-12 years, it's the only way a player of Cano's skill is going to sign with you.

So I get it, and I was OK with the signing, still am. Cano just needs a manager that knows how to motivate him.......cause Lloyd obviously wasn't doing it.

I agree that a team like the Mariners has to overpay for talent, but a past your prime 2B that feasted in a hitter friendly park? To lock him up until age 42?

Honestly trading him back to NY wouldn't be a bad thing.. they're the one team that could eat that contract. Only problem is they would want you to take back an equally s**t contract in Ellsbury.

Look at the contenders right now though in MLB.. KC was largely built from within with a few key players acquired via FA and trade. Houston is entirely from prospects and a dusting of FA/trade acquired talent. The Mets are primarily prospects. The Cubs. And on and on. Then the flip side you have the Dodgers, Red Sox, Yankees, Angels .. all the teams that have depleted farms and high payrolls. None of them have really won anything lately, save for a fluky title run by the Red Sox.. ironically fueled in large part due to a massive salary dump.

The M's continue to be in baseball no mans land with some really horrendous contracts to aging vets and a very very iffy farm. They are almost better off bottoming out for a few years just to rack up high draft picks and sell off whatever decent veteran talent they have for prospects. It's kind of a terrible way to present it to your fans though.. the notion that "hey we're probably going to lose 100 games for the next couple of years, but keep on coming out!" .. but over the long haul I think it's the only way the M's ever become relevant.

You can't look at the recent contenders and their model and ignore that decades of baseball were virtually dominated by big spending franchises who created all star line ups.

It's cyclical and the measure with which a team is put together only matters in terms of its players and their abilities. Teams like the Royals, Astros and Pirates waited decades to compete. Other teams bought their successes. Both ended up with results.

The truth is that their is a whole lot of money in the sport. And because their is no hard cap many teams can spend their way to success. Others have to be far more frugal...and lucky. The landscape is ever evolving but their is no "right way" to do it.

 

[Tical21]

I dunno Si. When the Yanks were winning really big, it wasn't primarily because of their payroll. When they were dominating, it was when they had Bernie, Jeter, Posada, Mariano, El Duque and middling vets. All guys that came up with them. It wasn't until after that success that they decided to throw money at their problems to try to keep winning, and they couldn't do it. When the Red Sox were contending every year, it was guys that had come up with them. They added Papi and Manny, but the rest of their core and pitchers were homegrown. Papi basically came up in their system too. Cardinals and Giants were the same way. Braves. You name it.

It helps to have the money, of course, if you use it right. Once you have that good core, then having money gets you the luxury of going out to get that stud Ace or stud Closer that would put you over the top, or that big power bat in the middle of the lineup. Name a team that has had a good run that was built primarily by bringing in free-agents. I don't think you can find one. If you spend that money and burn your prospects too soon, haven't developed that young core, and you don't end up getting good enough, you're done. You are dead in the water, and your only choices are to throw more money at the futile situation or sell off whatever isn't nailed down to gather as many prospects as you can. Failing to sell off your vets when their window was closed was one of the biggest reasons the past 15 years in M's baseball happened. When you're bad, you've got to have the patience to build that young core. We completely whiffed when we tried doing this recently, and now have no choice but to try again. It is a really hard thing to do because there is pressure on managers and GM's and they need to win to keep their jobs. Fans are sick of losing. However, if we spend more money now, flip prospects for vets now, we're only getting deeper in the quicksand. In baseball, there isn't any other way to do it.

 

[massari]

Like others are saying, the window with Felix, Cano, Cruz ect is closing so a couple bold moves are hopefully made.

Trade a young SP like Paxton+ for Puig or Elias+ for Ozuna. Since there are rumors of the Red Sox wanting to get rid of Hanley, trade a couple mid level prospects for him if Boston pays around 1/3 of the money left on his contract. Mike Napoli or Justin Morneau are probably the top two 1B free agent options if they don't trade for Hanley. Sign Nori Aoki for some added OF depth too.


CF-Martin
RF-Puig
2B-Cano
DH-Cruz
3B-Seager
1B-Ramirez
C-Ianetta+Zunino
LF-Aoki+Guti+Smith
SS-Marte

Felix
Kuma
Walker
Karns
Elias

 

[Uncle Si]

I dunno Si. When the Yanks were winning really big, it wasn't primarily because of their payroll. When they were dominating, it was when they had Bernie, Jeter, Posada, Mariano, El Duque and middling vets. All guys that came up with them. It wasn't until after that success that they decided to throw money at their problems to try to keep winning, and they couldn't do it. When the Red Sox were contending every year, it was guys that had come up with them. They added Papi and Manny, but the rest of their core and pitchers were homegrown. Papi basically came up in their system too. Cardinals and Giants were the same way. Braves. You name it.

It helps to have the money, of course, if you use it right. Once you have that good core, then having money gets you the luxury of going out to get that stud Ace or stud Closer that would put you over the top, or that big power bat in the middle of the lineup. Name a team that has had a good run that was built primarily by bringing in free-agents. I don't think you can find one. If you spend that money and burn your prospects too soon, haven't developed that young core, and you don't end up getting good enough, you're done. You are dead in the water, and your only choices are to throw more money at the futile situation or sell off whatever isn't nailed down to gather as many prospects as you can. Failing to sell off your vets when their window was closed was one of the biggest reasons the past 15 years in M's baseball happened. When you're bad, you've got to have the patience to build that young core. We completely whiffed when we tried doing this recently, and now have no choice but to try again. It is a really hard thing to do because there is pressure on managers and GM's and they need to win to keep their jobs. Fans are sick of losing. However, if we spend more money now, flip prospects for vets now, we're only getting deeper in the quicksand. In baseball, there isn't any other way to do it.

I agree, to a point. But the Yankees were more than just prospects that came good:

World Series Champs by Yankees:
1996- #1 in MLB payroll
1998- #2
1999- #1
2000- #1
2009- #1

Even with a good core, the Yankees were paying a very high price for their success. The Mariners tried the prospect route and failed, epically. They have brought in some bigger free agents to mix with a young core and some solid vets. On paper, you'd hope it would work. I hope adding some defense and a better manager is enough.

The thing with using prospects as a building block of your franchise is you have to get lucky, really lucky, and be very patient, as the Astros/Royals/Pirates have been.... or, you do what the Yankees did and spend big around great prospects. And once those prospects come good, will those teams hang on to them? If they do, they will be at or near the top of MLB payrolls...

Point is, their is no "right way"... and I don't fear the Mariners are that far away. They could use a bit of luck though.

To that, the Trumbo trade is interesting. It obviously saves alot of money, but leaves a big hole (two, really, three if you want another SP)...

 

[chris98251]

I dunno Si. When the Yanks were winning really big, it wasn't primarily because of their payroll. When they were dominating, it was when they had Bernie, Jeter, Posada, Mariano, El Duque and middling vets. All guys that came up with them. It wasn't until after that success that they decided to throw money at their problems to try to keep winning, and they couldn't do it. When the Red Sox were contending every year, it was guys that had come up with them. They added Papi and Manny, but the rest of their core and pitchers were homegrown. Papi basically came up in their system too. Cardinals and Giants were the same way. Braves. You name it.

It helps to have the money, of course, if you use it right. Once you have that good core, then having money gets you the luxury of going out to get that stud Ace or stud Closer that would put you over the top, or that big power bat in the middle of the lineup. Name a team that has had a good run that was built primarily by bringing in free-agents. I don't think you can find one. If you spend that money and burn your prospects too soon, haven't developed that young core, and you don't end up getting good enough, you're done. You are dead in the water, and your only choices are to throw more money at the futile situation or sell off whatever isn't nailed down to gather as many prospects as you can. Failing to sell off your vets when their window was closed was one of the biggest reasons the past 15 years in M's baseball happened. When you're bad, you've got to have the patience to build that young core. We completely whiffed when we tried doing this recently, and now have no choice but to try again. It is a really hard thing to do because there is pressure on managers and GM's and they need to win to keep their jobs. Fans are sick of losing. However, if we spend more money now, flip prospects for vets now, we're only getting deeper in the quicksand. In baseball, there isn't any other way to do it.

I agree, to a point. But the Yankees were more than just prospects that came good:

World Series Champs by Yankees:
1996- #1 in MLB payroll
1998- #2
1999- #1
2000- #1
2009- #1

Even with a good core, the Yankees were paying a very high price for their success. The Mariners tried the prospect route and failed, epically. They have brought in some bigger free agents to mix with a young core and some solid vets. On paper, you'd hope it would work. I hope adding some defense and a better manager is enough.

The thing with using prospects as a building block of your franchise is you have to get lucky, really lucky, and be very patient, as the Astros/Royals/Pirates have been.... or, you do what the Yankees did and spend big around great prospects. And once those prospects come good, will those teams hang on to them? If they do, they will be at or near the top of MLB payrolls...

Point is, their is no "right way"... and I don't fear the Mariners are that far away. They could use a bit of luck though.

To that, the Trumbo trade is interesting. It obviously saves alot of money, but leaves a big hole (two, really, three if you want another SP)...

Disagree with this, you have to have good scouting and evaluators, some teams can crank out prospects, others shop for them. We have had nothing since maybe the 80's here in any volume. Yanks have always spent money for vets going back to their first world series, they have also spent good money on their scouting departments and have really good talent evaluators. There is a reason they have won for a 100 yrs.

 

[Trenchbroom]

We signed Aoki as well:

http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/...-outfielder-nori-aoki-on-a-one-year-contract/

 

[Subzero717]

Love this pick up. Was hoping for it last year.

 

[IndyHawk]

Should we sign Cliff Lee?He has been cleared to pitch again by doctors ect.I know he did well his last time in Seattle.I think he would be a low risk/high reward pickup as he is a FA

 

[Uncle Si]

Iwa is a Dodger.

Team needs a SP.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

Iwa is a Dodger.

Team needs a SP.

Read it this morning. Bummer.

 

[Uncle Si]

Iwa is a Dodger.

Team needs a SP.

Read it this morning. Bummer.

Yeah.. what now?

 

[CPHawk]

Should have traded him last summer, when we could have gotten something for him. Another stupid forced non move, by our ownership.

 

[CurryStopstheRuns]

Should have traded him last summer, when we could have gotten something for him. Another stupid forced non move, by our ownership.

Not necessarily. We should get an extra first round pick for him.

 

[Uncle Si]

Should have traded him last summer, when we could have gotten something for him. Another stupid forced non move, by our ownership.

Not necessarily. We should get an extra first round pick for him.

Right...

so what's the FA market look like at this point?

 

[Hawk-Lock]

Is it me or does this seem like a very underwhelming off season so far?

 

[Glasgow Seahawk]

Elias and smith traded for Wade Miley from Boston. I like Elias and Smith

 

[bigtrain21]

Elias and smith traded for Wade Miley from Boston. I like Elias and Smith

What a stupid trade. Elias is equal to Miley but Elias is younger so he has the potentional to be better and Smith was fantastic out of the bullpen.

 

[dumbrabbit]

People are worked up over young pitchers getting traded. Smith and Elias are still prospects in my opinion. With Iwakuma gone they needed a decent pitcher and Miley is one.

I must be the only one around that is fine with this trade. I mean what other decent quality starting pitchers could we get for Elias and Smith?