Mike Holmgren wants to coach the 49ers, per source

[AbsolutNET]

A QB who has problems pulling the trigger when he needs to doesn't exactly fit Holmgren's style. And by that I mean it would be a disaster.

 

[Marvin49]

I'm really not a fan of retread coaches regardless of how successful they have been in other NFL stops.

Can Holmgren turn Kap around? Maybe, maybe not. I do see the issues it presents in terms of Kaps skillset and what Holmgren asks his QBs to do.

The only thing I'd say to that is that Kap will work his a$$ off to make it work...and if it doesn't, then you have your answer on whether he can be the QB of the future for the 49ers and because of the contract the Niners can get out of it. The 49ers will never truly know if Kap can be "the guy" at QB until he's out of that Harbaugh/Roman scheme that uses so little post-snap reads and tries to make almost all reads pre-snap.

Kap has issues for sure, but a lot of his probs IMO and some of the criticisms of him being a one read QB stem from the scheme itself mandating that he stick to that pre-snap read. The idea there is to make playing QB easier. An example...Niners don't use Hot-Reads. Almost everything determined pre-snap which is why they have so much motion, so many personnel packages, and sop much trouble with the play-clock.

Problem is, NFL defenses have figured all that out and change coverage's almost right at the snap.

This isn't to absolve Kap of his issues. He's got plenty. He abandons plays too early looking for the sandlot big play. He takes a sack when he should throw the ball. His accuracy seems to have declined. At times he almost looks parailized because he's trying to play from the pocket and his instincts are telling him to run. Kap has a HUGE part to play...

...but I don't think the 49ers will ever know what they really have until they get him with another HC/OC who really know how to play QB in the traditional sense and not somewhat of an offense designed to make it easier but in effect has now made it harder because defenses have caught up.

...and in advance, to anyone who thinks I'm making excuses, I'm not. What I'm really doing is slamming Harbaugh, Roman AND Kap all at the same time.

As for Holmgren...it would be interesting, but I've always though guys like him who've had success in the past just don't have the same drive the second and especially the third time around.

Not sure I'd be a fan of that move.

 

[endzorn]

The Niners are a pre-snap determined, one-read passing offense? Bullshit. Even if that were true, and it isn't, that doesn't excuse Kaepernick from staring at one guy the entire time until he bails. This one read crap sounds like fans making an excuse for a glaring deficiency.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

As much as I love Holmgren for making the Hawks an actual relevant and competitive NFL franchise, IMO the game's passed him by and I think he'd fail in SF.

All you have to do is listen to him on his radio segments to see that he's still set in his ways of evaluating talent and not changing his football philosophies to evolve with the game, and this was proved out in Cleveland with numerous poor drafts and mismanaged coaching decisions.

 

[Marvin49]

The Niners are a pre-snap determined, one-read passing offense? Bullshit. Even if that were true, and it isn't, that doesn't excuse Kaepernick from staring at one guy the entire time until he bails. This one read crap sounds like fans making an excuse for a glaring deficiency.

Jeez.

Seriously? Didn't I just say I was holding them ALL responsible?

You can not believe it all you want, but that don't make it any less true. There are OF COURSE some post-snap reads, but most of the offense is based on the premise that your decision can be made much simpler with a ton of motion, multiple formations, a strong running game and waiting till the end of the play-clock to snap to force the defense to declare.

Don't believe me? Go look up interviews with Todd Mortensen, Harbaughs first college QB.

How did Harbaugh turn Todd Mortensen, Josh Johnson, Andrew Luck, Alex Smith and Colin Kaepernick into very successful QBs VERY quickly after they took the reigns? Simplicity.

He did it by making the position simpler to play. He took away a lot of the post-snap decisions. He took away hot reads. On many plays there is ONE receiver while all the others are effectively blockers.

This isn't new. This was a part of the entire reason he was hired...he could get them a QB and wouldn't necessarily need to use a high 1st round pick to do it.

Again, I'm not absolving Kap of blame. Even within that structure he has played poorly and made bad decisions. The scheme though IS a big part of the problem. The 49ers won't ever really know what they have until Kap is asked to do things conventional QBs are asked to do. He could fail dramatically or he could succeed. Dunno. But we won't know till he's asked to do those things.

EDIT: oops. TODD, not Craig. fixed.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

How did Harbaugh turn Todd Mortensen, Josh Johnson, Andrew Luck, Alex Smith and Colin Kaepernick into very successful QBs VERY quickly after they took the reigns? Simplicity..

The difference is all these QB's other than Kaep are pocket passing high completion percentage and accurate QB's. Kaep never was, and never will be an accurate pocket passer that can go through progressions properly and then complete passes into tight windows.

Harbaugh did a great job of figuring out what Kaep could do well when he decided he was the starter. Then defenses figured out how to scheme that, so Harbaugh DID TRY to make Kaep more of of a traditional pocket passer this year............the result is a massive failure.

Bottom line, the Niners could dig up the ghost of Walsh, hire Mike Holmgren, and have Kaepernick live with Young and Montana 24/7 Real World style............but none of it matters, because in the end you can't coach accuracy.

Whatever coach comes to SF, if they keep Kaep then they need to go back to the pistol offense that everyone knows can score 21 pts a game, and focus on rebuilding the defense and finding another RB. THAT can work. But trying to make Kaep into something he'll never be? That my friend is failure before you even begin.

 

[Marvin49]

How did Harbaugh turn Todd Mortensen, Josh Johnson, Andrew Luck, Alex Smith and Colin Kaepernick into very successful QBs VERY quickly after they took the reigns? Simplicity..

The difference is all these QB's other than Kaep are pocket passing high completion percentage and accurate QB's. Kaep never was, and never will be an accurate pocket passer that can go through progressions properly and then complete passes into tight windows.

Harbaugh did a great job of figuring out what Kaep could do well when he decided he was the starter. Then defenses figured out how to scheme that, so Harbaugh DID TRY to make Kaep more of of a traditional pocket passer this year............the result is a massive failure.

Bottom line, the Niners could dig up the ghost of Walsh, hire Mike Holmgren, and have Kaepernick live with Young and Montana 24/7 Real World style............but none of it matters, because in the end you can't coach accuracy.

Whatever coach comes to SF, if they keep Kaep then they need to go back to the pistol offense that everyone knows can score 21 pts a game, and focus on rebuilding the defense and finding another RB. THAT can work. But trying to make Kaep into something he'll never be? That my friend is failure before you even begin.

You could very well be right, but Niners will never be sure what they do or don't have in Kap till he is asked to do things other QBs are asked to do. He's a smart kid and he works hard...but perhaps he doesn't have the mindset to be a classic QB. Perhaps the long throwing motion will be part of that undoing. No idea.

I'm not advocating Holmgren BTW. I'd probably rather have Shanahan if they are looking at the big name HC heap. Shanahan would probably restore that run game and he's got some experience with big armed mobile QBs...even if it ended poorly in Washington.

Pep Hamilton might be nice though because he's taken Harbaughs offense and made more of it in Indy that it was initially.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

You could very well be right, but Niners will never be sure what they do or don't have in Kap till he is asked to do things other QBs are asked to do.

He was this year wasn't he? You're closer to the Niners than me, but all I've heard over the past 10 games is "there was a concerted effort this year by Harbaugh and his staff to make Kaepernick into a more traditional QB, which is why his running stats are way down."

Becoming an accurate progression QB is not something you learn over an off season. It's ingrained into a QB by literally throwing thousands and thousand of balls within that style of offense for entire high school, college and pro seasons.

This is why I don't think Mariota will be a good pro QB. He's like Kaep, all he's ever done is a one read pistol style offense where if he's throwing the ball it's because someone's WIDE open. Just doesn't happen in the pros.

IMO Kaep is a very talented athlete, and you gotta play to his strengths..........run the pistol and run like the F'ing wind. End of story.

 

[Marvin49]

You could very well be right, but Niners will never be sure what they do or don't have in Kap till he is asked to do things other QBs are asked to do.

He was this year wasn't he? You're closer to the Niners than me, but all I've heard over the past 10 games is "there was a concerted effort this year by Harbaugh and his staff to make Kaepernick into a more traditional QB, which is why his running stats are way down."

Becoming an accurate progression QB is not something you learn over an off season. It's ingrained into a QB by literally throwing thousands and thousand of balls within that style of offense for entire high school, college and pro seasons.

This is why I don't think Mariota will be a good pro QB. He's like Kaep, all he's ever done is a one read pistol style offense where if he's throwing the ball it's because someone's WIDE open. Just doesn't happen in the pros.

IMO Kaep is a very talented athlete, and you gotta play to his strengths..........run the pistol and run like the F'ing wind. End of story.

Well...

....they tried to pass more and tried to keep him in the pocket more, but it was essentially the same scheme running different plays. They were unable to run the ball,

As for him running, he's running about the same number of times, he's just less effective on those runs. Teams are adjusting to him.

Running a lot more read/option from Pistol formations would probably really take advantage of his skillset, but I think he still needs to learn to play QB in a conventional manner from the pocket.

Steve Young is kinda a good example. He was a running QB who had to break his tendencies and learn to play QB from the pocket. I think its the only way to enjoy long term success.

I think Kaepernick can get there with a more conventional QB coach, but I have to fairly admit that is really an unknown.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Steve Young is kinda a good example. He was a running QB who had to break his tendencies and learn to play QB from the pocket. I think its the only way to enjoy long term success.

I think Kaepernick can get there with a more conventional QB coach, but I have to fairly admit that is really an unknown.

I was on your side Marvin, til you brought up Young.

Young graduated BYU completing 70% of his balls with an ungodly 168 passer rating, and continued that into the pros. In fact I think he's either the all time passer rating leader, or 2nd.

Kaep ain't even in the same accuracy universe as that, let alone neighborhood to compare the two.

 

[Hasselbeck]

The Niners need their version of Chip Kelly. A breath of fresh air with an offensive prowess

That's not Mike Holmgren. Not even close.

I think they should seriously consider making a run at Gus Malzahn.

 

[rideaducati]

This is just asking for another rift between HC and GM. Wouldn't last more than a year. The drama would never end.

 

[Marvin49]

Steve Young is kinda a good example. He was a running QB who had to break his tendencies and learn to play QB from the pocket. I think its the only way to enjoy long term success.

I think Kaepernick can get there with a more conventional QB coach, but I have to fairly admit that is really an unknown.

I was on your side Marvin, til you brought up Young.

Young graduated BYU completing 70% of his balls with an ungodly 168 passer rating, and continued that into the pros. In fact I think he's either the all time passer rating leader, or 2nd.

Kaep ain't even in the same accuracy universe as that, let alone neighborhood to compare the two.

Don't get me wrong.

I'm not saying Kap=Young. That wasn't my intent.

What I'm talking about is Steve having to change the way he played the game and fight his instinct to run. As he put it, he had to learn that everyone was better off if the play ended and he didn't have the ball.

This is something Steve himself has talked about. He's on the air out here quite a bit.

From a physical standpoint, Steve and Kap are completely different guys. The only think they really have in common is mobility.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

From a physical standpoint, Steve and Kap are completely different guys. The only think they really have in common is mobility.

I get ya, but Young had the college accuracy and system foundation to make the transition to the west coast offense. He also had what 3-4 years on the bench learning under the greatest QB of all time.

Just think you're wishful thinking here. Take the Carroll approach to Kaep. Don't focus on trying to fix the negative, figure out what he does well and create an offense around it.

 

[Marvin49]

From a physical standpoint, Steve and Kap are completely different guys. The only think they really have in common is mobility.

I get ya, but Young had the college accuracy and system foundation to make the transition to the west coast offense. He also had what 3-4 years on the bench learning under the greatest QB of all time.

Just think you're wishful thinking here. Take the Carroll approach to Kaep. Don't focus on trying to fix the negative, figure out what he does well and create an offense around it.

I think Chris Ault is available.

I hear ya. Will be interesting to see what they do moving forward.

 

[Lords of Scythia]

http://www.bayareasportsguy.com/san-francisco-49ers-head-coach-mike-holmgren-interested/

Former San Francisco 49ers offensive coordinator Mike Holmgren is highly interested in becoming the 49ers’ next head coach, according to a source who spoke with Holmgren.

http://www.ninersnation.com/2014/12/15/ ... lly-season


What would you Seahawk fans think of that? Holmgren back in the Bay area?



If this happens, expect Kaepernick to become a real NFL QB, 66 years old or no. Holmgren has already turned Steve Young, Brett Favre (19 TDs to 24 INTs before Holmgren got through to him; 33 TDs to 14 INTs the next season) and Matt Hasselbeck into legitimate NFL QBs. He even made Trent Dilfer look good for half a season. Of course, knowing Jed York and Trent Baalke, they'll want a yes man after the Harbaugh fiasco. I can't imagine them bringing him in. Particularly considering that Baalke is a Parcell's disciple.

But on the other hand, such a move would greatly mollify the masses, which would make it rather prudent, if Holmgren were to accept only coaching.


How would you guys feel if Mike Holmgren became the next 49er coach? Nostalgic? Angry? Humored?

You forgot (shame on you) Joe Montana, who won two MVPs under Holmgren's direct tutilage. Coach Holmes is the greatest qb coach that ever lived. As a head coach, he doesn't scare me, but as an OC with Kaep he sure as hell would.

 

[drdiags]

It would be a nice finish for his NFL career instead of how it ended in Cleveland. Maybe he has mellowed after Green Bay/Seattle and Cleveland? I care about the Big Show and I would bet getting the HC in his old neck of the woods would be a crowning achievement.

As long as the 9ers can keep their DC, he cannot hurt you there. With the stable of WRs that the 9ers have as well as TE, I suspect he could put up an offense that would be able to score in the 20's. The QB question is a big one, but the 9ers could give Kaep another year to see if he can make any leeway with Mike and company. That would give Mike time to find his QB long term. But with his age and past health issues, he would be more a short term solution so I am not sure the 9ers benefit from going this route.

It would be full-circle for Mike. As a Seahawks fan, my time with Mike is stored away in a memory vault. This stage of his life is open to those that want to take a chance with him and wouldn't make me think less of him. A man needs to do what he feels makes sense for him and his family. There is only so much talk radio or doing missionary work with his wife. His passion is football. Best of luck to him if he can get back to that coveted HC position.

 

[kearly]

Even if Baalke and Holmgren got together famously and Holmgren got his QB, I think the team they'd build would be the West Coast version of the Atlanta Falcons with a better running game. And this team would probably take 4 years to materialize.

The irony of Holmgren's Cleveland tenure is that the Browns drafted well particularly on defense, but were undone by his hand picked QBs. Holmgren, one of the most respected QB gurus of all time, failing because he went all in for Colt McCoy and Brandon Weeden.

 

[pehawk]

Even if Baalke and Holmgren got together famously and Holmgren got his QB, I think the team they'd build would be the West Coast version of the Atlanta Falcons with a better running game. And this team would probably take 4 years to materialize.

The irony of Holmgren's Cleveland tenure is that the Browns drafted well particularly on defense, but were undone by his hand picked QBs. Holmgren, one of the most respected QB gurus of all time, failing because he went all in for Colt McCoy and Brandon Weeden.

Aint that the truth. Holmgren's still pissed at Fisher for not trading with him too, I bet.

 

[Largent80]

9ers are not gluten free, so they are out.