Mina Kimes ranks Pete Carroll at #10 among coaches

[pittpnthrs]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAA!! So Russ was Pete's Quarterback through that "Abysmal" dry spell "Since 2015", and right up until 2022, that's SEVEN years of SHIT PLAY from Russ = F-A-C-T.
NOW, Russ goes to Denver WITH A CRAPLOAD OF CONTROL, and get's his a$$ SACKED to a record HIGH there, and though Pete's Backup QB Geno, takes a bunch of sacks, the number is still nowhere near the same numbers of his predecessor...striking difference between the two,...way more sacks = Wilsons FAULT, & NOT on Pete. = F-A-C-T

More like Pete was Russ's coach during those abysmal post season years. Wilsons numbers and stats destroy your argument. = F-A-C-T-S

Smith had 9 less sacks last season totaling 46. Enough to be tied for the third most sacked QB in the NFL. Not such a striking difference between him, Wilson, or even TJack (2nd most sacked QB in the league during his starting time in Seattle) before them. Common denominator,,,,,Pete Carroll. = F-A-C-T-S

 

[pittpnthrs]

Once More Pitt, WILSON C-O-N-S-T-A-N-T-L-Y RAN HIS ASS AWAY FROM PASS PROTECTION, No O-Line can cover for a guy who scrambles on damned near EVERY PLAY...His failure in Denver PROVED that.

What is the reason for the other QB's that got sacked a ton under Carroll Scutt? Its not just about Wilson.

A lot of back and forth here just because I said a better job could have been done protecting the QB.

 

[scutterhawk]

What is the reason for the other QB's that got sacked a ton under Carroll Scutt? Its not just about Wilson.

A lot of back and forth here just because I said a better job could have been done protecting the QB.

BUT YOU want to credit Wilson for keeping Pete's win % over .500, AND BLAME Wilsons shit plays on Pete, and that doesn't wash.
Let me reiterate, NO Offensive Line can give ANY willy-nilly run-around & out of protection quarterback the time to knit a gotdamned sweater, and Wilson PROVED me right by going to Denver, GAINING THE CONTROL that he absolutely insisted on having, and then getting his butt SACKED to record highs there...THAT'S ON >>RUSSELL WILSON<< F-A-C-T
You want to OMIT Russell Wilson for any of the blame, Your not wanting this whole argument to be about mistakes made by anyone other than Pete Carroll, BUT, Russell Wilson was Pete's Quarterback for over TEN YEARS.
All the good was due to Wilson, & all the bad is on Pete. LOLOLOLOL That is some bazar & messed up thinking/reasoning.

 

[pittpnthrs]

BUT YOU want to credit Wilson for keeping Pete's win % over .500, AND BLAME Wilsons shit plays on Pete, and that doesn't wash.
Let me reiterate, NO Offensive Line can give ANY willy-nilly run-around & out of protection quarterback the time to knit a gotdamned sweater, and Wilson PROVED me right by going to Denver, GAINING THE CONTROL that he absolutely insisted on having, and then getting his butt SACKED to record highs there...THAT'S ON >>RUSSELL WILSON<< F-A-C-T
You want to OMIT Russell Wilson for any of the blame, Your not wanting this whole argument to be about mistakes made by anyone other than Pete Carroll, BUT, Russell Wilson was Pete's Quarterback for over TEN YEARS.
All the good was due to Wilson, & all the bad is on Pete. LOLOLOLOL That is some bazar & messed up thinking/reasoning.

Do you honestly think Carrolls win percentage would have been that good without Wilson? Seriously? There was an entire season in which Wilson was accountable for every single touchdown except ONE. An entire season. He was a good enough QB that at least 10 wins were almost automatic.

Evidently NO Offensive line on a Pete Carroll coached Seahawk team can protect even QBs that arent willy-nilly, run-arounds either.

I'm not omitting blame for Russell Wilson. He had flaws. He was short and had a hard time seeing the field. He held onto the ball to long because of his athleticism and thinking he could escape all the time. He loved the home run ball to much. Etc,,,. And yet with all his flaws, he still won. It remains to be seen if Pete Carroll can win without him (vice versa I guess, but a Wilson in his prime would definitely put that theory to rest).

Speaking of omitting blame, Pete doesnt walk on water as you like to think.

 

[scutterhawk]

Do you honestly think Carrolls win percentage would have been that good without Wilson? Seriously? There was an entire season in which Wilson was accountable for every single touchdown except ONE. An entire season. He was a good enough QB that at least 10 wins were almost automatic.

Evidently NO Offensive line on a Pete Carroll coached Seahawk team can protect even QBs that arent willy-nilly, run-arounds either.

I'm not omitting blame for Russell Wilson. He had flaws. He was short and had a hard time seeing the field. He held onto the ball to long because of his athleticism and thinking he could escape all the time. He loved the home run ball to much. Etc,,,. And yet with all his flaws, he still won. It remains to be seen if Pete Carroll can win without him (vice versa I guess, but a Wilson in his prime would definitely put that theory to rest).

Speaking of omitting blame, Pete doesnt walk on water as you like to think.

Do I HONESTLY???^^^ Man, that's some really rich shit Pitts, the unequivocal answer is ABSOLUTELY YES!!!, Wilson doesn't even SNIFF a Super Bowl Ring WITHOUT Marshawn Lynch and Pete's Super Defense including the >> "Legion Of Boom", P-E-R-I-O-D!!! END OF DISCUSSION---FULL STOP!! And you KNOW that what I'm saying is the absolute truth, AND, AND, Wilson HAS NOT enjoyed the same success WITHOUT Pete's mega-talented Defense, and you damned well know it!

 

[keasley45]

Lol, Wilson only has one season away from the Seahawks and you want to make that as a point? Same with Walsh, you want to use two QB's in that example and concentrate on his first two seasons when the Niners were hopeless.

Pete has a much larger sample size. From a losing record in New York, to a Patriots team that got worse all three years he was the coach, to .500 ball without Wilson in Seattle with a 9-8 record last season with the great Geno Smith.

Seriously compete again is pure speculation. I dont feel Seattle will with the remaining years of Pete Carroll. Pretenders is the ceiling in my book.

Pure speculation to anyone not able to see the truth.

Yes. I absolutley can take one season of Russ away from Seattle and by simply observing what he is and isn't capable of (reading defense) and pretty easily draw a conclusion about how much of what he did here was him carrying the team, and how much was a very specific system that was tailored to limit his weaknesses (covering for not being able to effectively read defenses and see the field completely I not a small tweak to the playbook).

Anyone can see a sample size of one season, and when his former teammates come out and basically say 'I told you so' , and, if you arent biased, see that the dude was good, but not Pete's savior and certainly not THE key piece of the teams that for us, saw the most success.

As to you constantly beating the ' he sucked before wilson' drum and referencing his tenure in NE and NY... here - a quote from Drew Bledsoe on the pretty much consensus belief among MOST IN NE THAT HE WAS SETUP TO FAIL.

"Yeah, definitely I think he got a raw deal in New England," Bledsoe said of Carroll. "And I'm so happy for Pete that he's been able to go on to such great success at USC and now with the Seahawks to really prove what guys that played for him back then believed. The guy's a heck of a football coach and probably deserves to be mentioned in that top echelon of coaches."

More :

"We had an atmosphere that was conducive to the players," Milloy said. "Pete was still the guy smiling, throwing the ball around, but the competition was real. He came back in the league on his own terms with an organization and a city that ultimately had the patience to see it all pan out."

And another

...'Carroll did not have control over assembling the 53-man roster. That power was split among Bobby Grier, the vice president of player personnel; Andy Wasynczuk, the contract negotiator; and Carroll. But there was a clear divide between the head coach and the front office.

Each year was a step backward in the win column.

It didn't matter that the Patriots' front office had misfired on multiple draft picks or that their first-round pick in 1998, running back Robert Edwards, suffered a devastating knee injury during a sand football game at the Pro Bowl. It didn't matter that the roster had aged and started to rot. It didn't matter that wide receiver Terry Glenn was a divisive presence in the locker room, two former assistants said.

Expectations in New England were higher than .500. Kraft fired Carroll and hired Parcells disciple Bill Belichick.'

Here's the entire article.

Fox: Carroll was set up to fail as Patriots coach

Expectations set by Bill Parcells and a laid-back image that didn't fly in New England doomed Pete Carroll's tenure with the Patriots, Ashley Fox writes.

www.espn.com

Pete was handed a Bill Parcells roster and give no real authority to change it. He was stuck with another coach's players and his style was the antithesis of that of his predecessor. This has all been well documented and is old news. And yet you still keep grasping at it to tarnish Pete.

As to his stint with the Jets - he was coach for one season after Bruce Coslet who's Jets teams were 20-28. That's what Pete inherited for one season, with a team he again had zero control over.

Anyone who's been paying attention understands that great coaches BUILD their teams either by force of character, or by crafting a roster in the vision they have for the team.

Pete came back to the NFL on TE condition that he'd have control of the roster and culture. He was given that control for the first time ever in Seattle and proceeded to build some a team that put up some of the most successful DVOA seasons of all time.

Only 3 coaches in the history of football of won championship in college and the pros. Pete is one of them.

Great coaches can get the best out of players. Walsh did it with Montana who had few remarkable meaureables. He then did it with Young who was an afterthought in Tampa.

Pete did it with Wilson. Sorry of that's tough to take, but it's now beyond dispute. A qb who can't read defense or struggles to literally see the field, cannot be THE major reason a team or coach was successful. Without a PC or SP (maybe) Wilson is closer to who he was last year than the debated HOF worthy player he was thought to be.

Anyway. Hanging an argument that Pete's success is buoyed by the qb HE positioned to succeed, is laughable.

He's top 5, in 2023.

Grab your popcorn and watch us kick ass again.

 

[Hawkmode]

Yes, and i've even mentioned the correlation between the sacks and Petes philosophy of maybe being better off taking sacks than forcing the ball. With that being the case, my observation was that better protection should have been a bigger priority which would have alleviated some of the excessive sacks in that type of philosophy but I got crucified as usual because something was mentioned that opposed a positive light in Seahawk land. Russell Wilson mentioned it too, but he's the devil.

As for 2016, my biggest memory that season was Wilson being in his leg brace and Carroll and Bevell still ran the zone option offense when defenses knew Wilson wasnt capable of taking it himself and running. It was brilliant I tell you.

Your reasoning is sound...I offer RW isn't comfortable as a pure pocket passer...there is a reason your non-prototype QB has to exhibit abnormal athleticism and take good care of their body while making full use of the QB slide when they "escape" the pocket whether forced or by design...once you leave the pocket the QB loses some of the refs protection...now the QB becomes a "runner" and can get "ko'd" (just not flagrantly so...)

From : andscape.com
By William C. Rhoden January 7, 2020

Under current NFL rules, there are five basic protections for quarterbacks formulated with traditional pocket passers in mind.

• The one-step rule. After the quarterback releases the ball, the defender has to hit the quarterback before his second step hits the ground. After the second foot hits the ground, the defender cannot hit the quarterback.
• Quarterbacks are protected against low hits in the pocket.
• Quarterbacks are protected against intimidating and punishing acts: stuffing them into the ground, driving them down after they have thrown the ball and landing on them with all or most of a defender’s weight.
• The quarterback is protected against hits to the head or hits by a defender’s helmet against the quarterback’s body.
• After quarterbacks release the ball, they are protected. They cannot be hit late. If there is a turnover, a defender may not hit the quarterback until he assumes a distinctly defensive posture.

This is all well and good, but the current rules penalize the quarterback who leaves the pocket.


“When the quarterback goes outside the pocket and either continues moving with the ball without attempting to advance the ball as a runner, or throws while on the run, the quarterback loses the protection of the one-step rule and he loses the protection against the low hit,” Bussert said.


If quarterbacks stop behind the line of scrimmage and assume a passing posture, they retain the protection of the one-step rule and the protection against the low hit.


“This next generation of quarterbacks, it’s going to be just as true if not more true. I think the rules will have to be adjusted to protect those guys in terms of how they’re playing the game, and that will be the next step.” — Baltimore Ravens coach John Harbaugh

“But when the quarterback breaks from the pocket and is rolling out, looking downfield for a receiver and preparing to throw, he loses the one-step protection because he is on the run,” Bussert said. “And the defender is on the run after him. The quarterback also loses protection against the low hit because the defender is going to lunge or dive after the passer who has now becomes an elusive target.”


Under current NFL rules, when quarterbacks give up on the pass and move forward they become “a pure runner.”


“Then you’ve got to permit the tackler the chance to bring him down,” Bussert said. “At that point, the passing protections come off.”


This complicated narrative is the source of the NFL’s dilemma in protecting the game’s most valuable assets. A style of play that for many years was devalued, frowned upon and dismissed as “alley-ball” has become must-see TV.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Do I HONESTLY???^^^ Man, that's some really rich shit Pitts, the unequivocal answer is ABSOLUTELY YES!!!, Wilson doesn't even SNIFF a Super Bowl Ring WITHOUT Marshawn Lynch and Pete's Super Defense including the >> "Legion Of Boom", P-E-R-I-O-D!!! END OF DISCUSSION---FULL STOP!! And you KNOW that what I'm saying is the absolute truth, AND, AND, Wilson HAS NOT enjoyed the same success WITHOUT Pete's mega-talented Defense, and you damned well know it!

I'm not talking about the Super Bowl or that defense. I'm talking about 2015 and on. Without Wilson, those teams are lucky to be .500 at best. He did a lot of load carrying for awhile in Seattle that people tend to forget.

 

[keasley45]

Do you honestly think Carrolls win percentage would have been that good without Wilson? Seriously? There was an entire season in which Wilson was accountable for every single touchdown except ONE. An entire season. He was a good enough QB that at least 10 wins were almost automatic.

Evidently NO Offensive line on a Pete Carroll coached Seahawk team can protect even QBs that arent willy-nilly, run-arounds either.

I'm not omitting blame for Russell Wilson. He had flaws. He was short and had a hard time seeing the field. He held onto the ball to long because of his athleticism and thinking he could escape all the time. He loved the home run ball to much. Etc,,,. And yet with all his flaws, he still won. It remains to be seen if Pete Carroll can win without him (vice versa I guess, but a Wilson in his prime would definitely put that theory to rest).

Speaking of omitting blame, Pete doesnt walk on water as you like to think.

Yeah. He could have been as successful with a qb he put in place and actually SELECTED to start, like Geno Smith.

What about this do you not get? Pete inherited an aging qb in Hass. He wasn't the solution. He was just the guy he kept in place for a year.

He brought over TJack because he and Bevell both came from Minnesota. TJack wasn't the guy Pete had envisioned as HIS guy to run HIS system. He was the guy they started while they built everything else.

Pete CHOSE Russ to start. It was he who saw enough skill to be able to keep the boat afloat and make some magic while his defense and RB did the rest. He saw Russ's talent and flair for the unorthodox. But he was smart enough to know Russ had his limitations. And that was ok, because he didn't need him to be Tom Brady.

THAT was the formula that won.

And NOW , despite being a laughing stock here and around the league for CHOOSING Geno, he's building his team again.

You're confusing highlight plays that were made highlights by virtue of the fact that EVERY OTHER PLAY, was going to be an improvised, hold your breath and close your eyes, moment, whether it NEEDED TO BE or not with a style that was necessary to win.

To quote K Warner in reviewing Russ play 'it doesn't have to be that hard...'

So could we have achieved as much with a guy like Geno who can see the field, read defenses, make checks, line calls, adjust protections, and throw with anticipation... could the LOB and Lynch have won with him? ABSOLUTELY.

Could the teams that were in the bottom third of the league on passing 3rd down success for most of Russ's career faired as well under the hand of a qb who could maximize the playbook? You're saying No??

Or put another way, you're saying a qb who literally can't do the stuff I listed above, should be seen as THE reason a team succeeds?

Looneytoons. Straight looneytoons.

Russ's season in 16 or 17 when he was the offense was remarkable.

Michael Vick had some remarkable seasons as well when he accounted for a significant portion of his teams offense.

Lamar Jackson was so completely responsible for Baltimore's offensive success he won an MVP.

Could a better qb have brought Baltimore more success? Absolutely. Hands down, yes.

You think Baltimire brass wanted to pay him? Nope. I spend a good amount of time in Baltimore. I know. They see his limitations. They know what they'll be with him and what they will never be. And now they've hitched their cart to his horse the same way we did Russ because without a doubt, he an incredible player. But if you put Geno in Baltimore, could he do better? Yup. If you put Brock Purdy there, could they be better? Yup. Garapolo? Possibly.

Qbs with the limitations both Russ and Lamar have arent irreplaceable. They are unique and win their own way. But in NO way, is THAT way necessarily better than solid, all around, traditional qb play.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Pure speculation to anyone not able to see the truth.

Yes. I absolutley can take one season of Russ away from Seattle and by simply observing what he is and isn't capable of (reading defense) and pretty easily draw a conclusion about how much of what he did here was him carrying the team, and how much was a very specific system that was tailored to limit his weaknesses (covering for not being able to effectively read defenses and see the field completely I not a small tweak to the playbook).

Anyone can see a sample size of one game, and when his former teammates come out and basically say 'I told you so' , and, if you arent biased, see that the dude was good, but not Pete's savior and certainly not THE key piece of the teams that for us, saw the most success.

As to you constantly beating the ' he sucked before wilson' drum and referencing his tenure in NE and NY... here - a quote from Drew Bledsoe on the pretty much consensus belief among MOST IN NE THAT HE WAS SETUP TO FAIL.

"Yeah, definitely I think he got a raw deal in New England," Bledsoe said of Carroll. "And I'm so happy for Pete that he's been able to go on to such great success at USC and now with the Seahawks to really prove what guys that played for him back then believed. The guy's a heck of a football coach and probably deserves to be mentioned in that top echelon of coaches."

More :

"We had an atmosphere that was conducive to the players," Milloy said. "Pete was still the guy smiling, throwing the ball around, but the competition was real. He came back in the league on his own terms with an organization and a city that ultimately had the patience to see it all pan out."

And another

...'Carroll did not have control over assembling the 53-man roster. That power was split among Bobby Grier, the vice president of player personnel; Andy Wasynczuk, the contract negotiator; and Carroll. But there was a clear divide between the head coach and the front office.

Each year was a step backward in the win column.

It didn't matter that the Patriots' front office had misfired on multiple draft picks or that their first-round pick in 1998, running back Robert Edwards, suffered a devastating knee injury during a sand football game at the Pro Bowl. It didn't matter that the roster had aged and started to rot. It didn't matter that wide receiver Terry Glenn was a divisive presence in the locker room, two former assistants said.

Expectations in New England were higher than .500. Kraft fired Carroll and hired Parcells disciple Bill Belichick.'

Here's the entire article.

Fox: Carroll was set up to fail as Patriots coach

Expectations set by Bill Parcells and a laid-back image that didn't fly in New England doomed Pete Carroll's tenure with the Patriots, Ashley Fox writes.

www.espn.com

Pete was handed a Bill Parcells roster and give no real authority to change it. He was stuck with another coach's players and his style was the antithesis of that of his predecessor. This has all been well documented and is old news. And yet you still keep grasping at it to tarnish Pete.

As to his stint with the Jets - he was coach for one season after Bruce Coslet who's Jets teams were 20-28. That's what Pete inherited for one season, with a team he again had zero control over.

Anyone who's been paying attention understands that great coaches BUILD their teams either by force of character, or by crafting a roster in the vision they have for the team.

Pete came back to the NFL on TE condition that he'd have control of the roster and culture. He was given that control for the first time ever in Seattle and proceeded to build some a team that put up some of the most successful DVOA seasons of all time.

Only 3 coaches in the history of football of won championship in college and the pros. Pete is one of them.

Great coaches can get the best out of players. Walsh did it with Montana who had few remarkable meaureables. He then did it with Young who was an afterthought in Tampa.

Pete did it with Wilson. Sorry of that's tough to take, but it's now beyond dispute. A qb who can't read defense or struggles to literally see the field, cannot be THE major reason a team or coach was successful. Without a PC or SP (maybe) Wilson is closer to who he was last year than the debated HOF worthy player he was thought to be.

Anyway. Hanging an argument that Pete's success is buoyed by the qb HE positioned to succeed, is laughable.

He's top 5, in 2023.

Grab your popcorn and watch us kick ass again.

Nice post Keasley. There's a lot to take and talk about, but i'm honestly to tired right now.

I'll just state this and move on. To judge Wilson's performance now is a bit harsh. He's older and has lost the elusiveness that used to be his strength. I admit I was wrong when he started his slide in Seattle. I thought he was beat up and had a bad season and that he would rebound. Now, I dont know if he can. His prime maybe too far behind him.

KJ is convinced he'll rebound with his statement "I have the receipts". Me, i'm not so sure. He'll improve on his dismal season last year, but I dont know if he'll ever be great again.

 

[Hawkmode]

The sack "argument" is not stable ground for discerning "blame". Are sacks being accumulated due to good coverage? What is a reasonable time frame for an O-Line to sustain their blocks?...and how does that vary with QB style?...ability for QB to recognize and adjust pass pro called/ "hot" reads?...coverage sacks?...sacks attributed to coaches expectations/demands?...QB composure under duress?...the list is endless..."reading" into stats is speculation at best...and normally the Offensive Coordinator is tasked with "helping" the QB with rollouts/screens/quick reads (uptempo) so just admit sacks suck wherever blame might fall.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Yeah. He could have been as successful with a qb he put in place and actually SELECTED to start, like Geno Smith.

What about this do you not get? Pete inherited an aging qb in Hass. He wasn't the solution. He was just the guy he kept in place for a year.

He brought over TJack because he and Bevell both came from Minnesota. TJack wasn't the guy Pete had envisioned as HIS guy to run HIS system. He was the guy they started while they built everything else.

Pete CHOSE Russ to start. It was he who saw enough skill to be able to keep the boat afloat and make some magic while his defense and RB did the rest. He saw Russ's talent and flair for the unorthodox. But he was smart enough to know Russ had his limitations. And that was ok, because he didn't need him to be Tom Brady.

THAT was the formula that won.

And NOW , despite being a laughing stock here and around the league for CHOOSING Geno, he's building his team again.

You're confusing highlight plays that were made highlights by virtue of the fact that EVERY OTHER PLAY, was going to be an improvised, hold your breath and close your eyes, moment, whether it NEEDED TO BE or not with a style that was necessary to win.

To quote K Warner in reviewing Russ play 'it doesn't have to be that hard...'

So could we have achieved as much with a guy like Geno who can see the field, read defenses, make checks, line calls, adjust protections, and throw with anticipation... could the LOB and Lynch have won with him? ABSOLUTELY.

Could the teams that were in the bottom third of the league on passing 3rd down success for most of Russ's career faired as well under the hand of a qb who could maximize the playbook? You're saying No??

Or put another way, you're saying a qb who literally can't do the stuff I listed above, should be seen as THE reason a team succeeds?

Looneytoons. Straight looneytoons.

Russ's season in 16 or 17 when he was the offense was remarkable.

Michael Vick had some remarkable seasons as well when he accounted for a significant portion of his teams offense.

Lamar Jackson was so completely responsible for Baltimore's offensive success he won an MVP.

Could a better qb have brought Baltimore more success? Absolutely. Hands down, yes.

You think Baltimire brass wanted to pay him? Nope. I spend a good amount of time in Baltimore. I know. They see his limitations. They know what they'll be with him and what they will never be. And now they've hitched their cart to his horse the same way we did Russ because without a doubt, he an incredible player. But if you put Geno in Baltimore, could he do better? Yup. If you put Brock Purdy there, could they be better? Yup. Garapolo? Possibly.

Qbs with the limitations both Russ and Lamar have arent irreplaceable. They are unique and win their own way. But in NO way, is THAT way necessarily better than solid, all around, traditional qb play.

Well we differ in our opinions. Couple of things. If the team is using Geno as a stopgap until the other areas are sorted out, I can get onboard with that. In no known universe do I think he can be a Super Bowl caliper QB. Bottom line is I dont think he has the mentality for the big stage. In another words,,,,he chokes. He has a lot to prove to me this season before I can change my mind.

Another thing is will Pete Carroll have enough time to complete this rebuild and if so, will it even be successful? Let's face it. The guy is a million. Time is running out. I have zero confidence he will ever sniff another Super Bowl in his lifetime, but the majority of fans still believes he can. We will find out.

 

[Hawkmode]

Well we differ in our opinions. Couple of things. If the team is using Geno as a stopgap until the other areas are sorted out, I can get onboard with that. In no known universe do I think he can be a Super Bowl caliper QB. Bottom line is I dont think he has the mentality for the big stage. In another words,,,,he chokes. He has a lot to prove to me this season before I can change my mind.

Another thing is will Pete Carroll have enough time to complete this rebuild and if so, will it even be successful? Let's face it. The guy is a million. Time is running out. I have zero confidence he will ever sniff another Super Bowl in his lifetime, but the majority of fans still believes he can. We will find out.

Your take is familiar territory for many in our diverse fan base. I feel there are many variables at play throughout the length of a season with overcoming adversity just beginning to scratch the surface as one of many expectations. A great composed QB able to make "all the throws" is like trading a normal die for one that is "weighted" to give good results...you still will have a hard time beating the "house" (rest of the NFL). Enjoy the journey with "steady" expectations and the rest can be attributed to "making a dream" come true.

 

[scutterhawk]

Yeah. He could have been as successful with a qb he put in place and actually SELECTED to start, like Geno Smith.

What about this do you not get? Pete inherited an aging qb in Hass. He wasn't the solution. He was just the guy he kept in place for a year.

He brought over TJack because he and Bevell both came from Minnesota. TJack wasn't the guy Pete had envisioned as HIS guy to run HIS system. He was the guy they started while they built everything else.

Pete CHOSE Russ to start. It was he who saw enough skill to be able to keep the boat afloat and make some magic while his defense and RB did the rest. He saw Russ's talent and flair for the unorthodox. But he was smart enough to know Russ had his limitations. And that was ok, because he didn't need him to be Tom Brady.

THAT was the formula that won.

And NOW , despite being a laughing stock here and around the league for CHOOSING Geno, he's building his team again.

You're confusing highlight plays that were made highlights by virtue of the fact that EVERY OTHER PLAY, was going to be an improvised, hold your breath and close your eyes, moment, whether it NEEDED TO BE or not with a style that was necessary to win.

To quote K Warner in reviewing Russ play 'it doesn't have to be that hard...'

So could we have achieved as much with a guy like Geno who can see the field, read defenses, make checks, line calls, adjust protections, and throw with anticipation... could the LOB and Lynch have won with him? ABSOLUTELY.

Could the teams that were in the bottom third of the league on passing 3rd down success for most of Russ's career faired as well under the hand of a qb who could maximize the playbook? You're saying No??

Or put another way, you're saying a qb who literally can't do the stuff I listed above, should be seen as THE reason a team succeeds?

Looneytoons. Straight looneytoons.

Russ's season in 16 or 17 when he was the offense was remarkable.

Michael Vick had some remarkable seasons as well when he accounted for a significant portion of his teams offense.

Lamar Jackson was so completely responsible for Baltimore's offensive success he won an MVP.

Could a better qb have brought Baltimore more success? Absolutely. Hands down, yes.

You think Baltimire brass wanted to pay him? Nope. I spend a good amount of time in Baltimore. I know. They see his limitations. They know what they'll be with him and what they will never be. And now they've hitched their cart to his horse the same way we did Russ because without a doubt, he an incredible player. But if you put Geno in Baltimore, could he do better? Yup. If you put Brock Purdy there, could they be better? Yup. Garapolo? Possibly.

Qbs with the limitations both Russ and Lamar have arent irreplaceable. They are unique and win their own way. But in NO way, is THAT way necessarily better than solid, all around, traditional qb play.

And I would like to add to your great post keasley: Right after Wilson departs from Seattle, Pete IMMEDIATELY begins restructuring his O-Line to best fit the more NORMAL/CONVENTIONAL style of play that Geno Smith and or Drew Lock brings to the more opened playbook.
I was a Huge fan, & it WAS easy to get wrapped up in Wilson's ability to rip into Defenses early on, but once he started slowing down, younger & faster Defenses were gearing up & adjusting to take away his Juke magic, the writing was on the wall.
Denver's upper crust hired Sean Payton to fix what was broken in Mile High, I guarantee he will not allow Russ to continue with doing things his own way.

 

[keasley45]

Well we differ in our opinions. Couple of things. If the team is using Geno as a stopgap until the other areas are sorted out, I can get onboard with that. In no known universe do I think he can be a Super Bowl caliper QB. Bottom line is I dont think he has the mentality for the big stage. In another words,,,,he chokes. He has a lot to prove to me this season before I can change my mind.

Another thing is will Pete Carroll have enough time to complete this rebuild and if so, will it even be successful? Let's face it. The guy is a million. Time is running out. I have zero confidence he will ever sniff another Super Bowl in his lifetime, but the majority of fans still believes he can. We will find out.

Pitt - how many times has Russ made a great comeback in the last 3 years? Yet he gets a pass while its THE sign Geno cant succeed? In his cook year, Russ went on a stretch where e turned the ball over 10 tines in 4 games. In all of tbise games, we were behind. In none of them did we come back, although he tried. After that, the games were 'managed' by Pete and we pit together a 6-1 record vs 6-3 while Russ was immitating T Brady.

2021? Similarly, we fell behind often, and lost often. Comeback against the Titans in OT whrn the D gave us the ball? Nope. Not against the Vikings either. Or the Rams. And we only won again consistently when Pete took the reigns again after Russ gave the game away in a comeback fail against the Bears.

During his time with the Jets, Geno put together 7 game winning drives and he was their only reason for winning. And he didn't finish his second season.

In his one season with us, he put together 3.

I get being cautious because of his fumbles against the Bucs and 9ers. But again, in each of thise games, he was the only reason we were in them. And in both, defenses were teeing off on him, especially in our wildcard loss. So I just don't get the - he's only a stopgap, and not clutch enough.

Same with Pete - he will never sniff another championship? Your disgruntledness is fogging your glasses, I think. You make it sound as if we are just hapless and treading water when every measurable sign points to us being a force again.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Pitt - how many times has Russ made a great comeback in the last 3 years? Yet he gets a pass while its THE sign Geno cant succeed? In his cook year, Russ went on a stretch where e turned the ball over 10 tines in 4 games. In all of tbise games, we were behind. In none of them did we come back, although he tried. After that, the games were 'managed' by Pete and we pit together a 6-1 record vs 6-3 while Russ was immitating T Brady.

2021? Similarly, we fell behind often, and lost often. Comeback against the Titans in OT whrn the D gave us the ball? Nope. Not against the Vikings either. Or the Rams. And we only won again consistently when Pete took the reigns again after Russ gave the game away in a comeback fail against the Bears.

During his time with the Jets, Geno put together 7 game winning drives and he was their only reason for winning. And he didn't finish his second season.

In his one season with us, he put together 3.

I get being cautious because of his fumbles against the Bucs and 9ers. But again, in each of thise games, he was the only reason we were in them. And in both, defenses were teeing off on him, especially in our wildcard loss. So I just don't get the - he's only a stopgap, and not clutch enough.

Same with Pete - he will never sniff another championship? Your disgruntledness is fogging your glasses, I think. You make it sound as if we are just hapless and treading water when every measurable sign points to us being a force again.

Keas, the last 3 years? Not many, but does that negate a career full of them? As for Geno and his time with the Jets. He had 7 comebacks. With how bad they were, that doesnt sound out of the realm of possibility. They were always playing from behind. They only won 11 total games in Geno's time there.

I see your still hung up on PFF's definition of comebacks. They consider a game in which Seattle never trailed in as a comeback for some unknown reason. Geno had one legit comeback in Seattle. In his time in Seattle, what I see from Geno is turnovers or errant throws when trying to comeback or the game is on the line. I have zero faith in Smith if Seattle is behind in the late stages of the game. As a matter of fact, I expect to lose those games with him under center. With Wilson, I always had hope because i've seen it a million times before. As I said before, Geno has a lot to prove this season in order for me to view him as the QB you feel he already is.

A force again? How are you coming to that conclusion with a team that was only one game above .500 last season? Also the team is a mystery right now. On paper it theoretically should be better, but thats never certain. Heck, they might even be worse. I still think the defense is going to stink for at least a half a season with a ceiling of being average. Can and will the rookie RB's contribute and help Walker out? Will Geno regress from last years breakout season? Etc,,,. All that said, then there's Pete Carroll and his poor game planning in the post season.

I'm just basing my opinion on the pattern and trends of the past 8 years. I think Seattle will be decent with some post season visits in Carrolls time left here, but early exits will continue to plague him until he retires or is forced out. A force again? I cant see that ever happening. Trust me, I hope i'm proven wrong.

 

[scutterhawk]

Keas, the last 3 years? Not many, but does that negate a career full of them? As for Geno and his time with the Jets. He had 7 comebacks. With how bad they were, that doesnt sound out of the realm of possibility. They were always playing from behind. They only won 11 total games in Geno's time there.

I see your still hung up on PFF's definition of comebacks. They consider a game in which Seattle never trailed in as a comeback for some unknown reason. Geno had one legit comeback in Seattle. In his time in Seattle, what I see from Geno is turnovers or errant throws when trying to comeback or the game is on the line. I have zero faith in Smith if Seattle is behind in the late stages of the game. As a matter of fact, I expect to lose those games with him under center. With Wilson, I always had hope because i've seen it a million times before. As I said before, Geno has a lot to prove this season in order for me to view him as the QB you feel he already is.

A force again? How are you coming to that conclusion with a team that was only one game above .500 last season? Also the team is a mystery right now. On paper it theoretically should be better, but thats never certain. Heck, they might even be worse. I still think the defense is going to stink for at least a half a season with a ceiling of being average. Can and will the rookie RB's contribute and help Walker out? Will Geno regress from last years breakout season? Etc,,,. All that said, then there's Pete Carroll and his poor game planning in the post season.

I'm just basing my opinion on the pattern and trends of the past 8 years. I think Seattle will be decent with some post season visits in Carrolls time left here, but early exits will continue to plague him until he retires or is forced out. A force again? I cant see that ever happening. Trust me, I hope i'm proven wrong.

Hope you're proven wrong?? Wink, wink, Sure you do.
Do you know the meaning of the word 'Sincere'?, or would you rather just B.S. your way around it.
Try being openly honest Pitt: Your dislike..er make that HATE for Pete Carroll is blatantly obvious, and you DO NOT wish him success.

 

[sc85sis]

Who has had a better, more praiseworthy career, PC as a head coach, or RW as a QB?

Sometimes it seems that a lot of the back and forth in these threads kind of revolves around that question.

I don't know. The thought just popped into my mind.

You win or lose as a team. That’s what people seem to forget. That’s what some of the Hawks players seemed to forget after the SB loss, and that’s why they fell off.

Team. Not just person.

 

[sc85sis]

I think Carroll leaving USC had far more to do with going 9-4 in 2009, and seeing the decline of his program..........and yes, not wanting to deal with any impending sanctions.

Did he know about the Bush situation? Maybe. Probably.

But IMO Pete jumping ship to the NFL had far more to do with him wanting a new challenge, and the new challenge was proving he could win in the NFL. Which he's proven in spades.

Pete wasn’t getting support at USC. He wanted them to fight the NCAA. He also saw how quick they were to throw Floyd, the basketball coach, under the bus.

He’d always said there was a possibility he might leave to go back to the NFL some day. At that point he thought it wasn’t going to happen because he didn’t believe anyone would meet his terms and give him the level of player control he’d need. Then the Seahawks came along and gave him everything he asked for.

 

[keasley45]

Keas, the last 3 years? Not many, but does that negate a career full of them? As for Geno and his time with the Jets. He had 7 comebacks. With how bad they were, that doesnt sound out of the realm of possibility. They were always playing from behind. They only won 11 total games in Geno's time there.

I see your still hung up on PFF's definition of comebacks. They consider a game in which Seattle never trailed in as a comeback for some unknown reason. Geno had one legit comeback in Seattle. In his time in Seattle, what I see from Geno is turnovers or errant throws when trying to comeback or the game is on the line. I have zero faith in Smith if Seattle is behind in the late stages of the game. As a matter of fact, I expect to lose those games with him under center. With Wilson, I always had hope because i've seen it a million times before. As I said before, Geno has a lot to prove this season in order for me to view him as the QB you feel he already is.

A force again? How are you coming to that conclusion with a team that was only one game above .500 last season? Also the team is a mystery right now. On paper it theoretically should be better, but thats never certain. Heck, they might even be worse. I still think the defense is going to stink for at least a half a season with a ceiling of being average. Can and will the rookie RB's contribute and help Walker out? Will Geno regress from last years breakout season? Etc,,,. All that said, then there's Pete Carroll and his poor game planning in the post season.

I'm just basing my opinion on the pattern and trends of the past 8 years. I think Seattle will be decent with some post season visits in Carrolls time left here, but early exits will continue to plague him until he retires or is forced out. A force again? I cant see that ever happening. Trust me, I hope i'm proven wrong.

I'm not stuck on PFF. When you google comeback wins, that page comes up.

How you claim Genos comeback aren't worthy, I don't know . Maybe I was watching a different team, but there were many drives that woukd have been gane winners if not for the defenses repeated failures to hold the lead they were just given.

You don't buy that we are on the verge of contention? Ok

What I don't understand is how some folks around here continue to talk about a pattern of failure going back X years, yet completely ignore that monumental change between this current incarnation of the Hawks and those teams. It's likely because you can't buy that one of the major reasons we were in a funk was because of Wilson.

It's like spending 5k to get your car overhauled because it was failing you. You replace the part that was most contributing to failure and are steadily freshening up other components as well. First ride back from the shop... much improved, but not there yet. But now you've narrowed down the issues, upgraded parts and now are pretty certain that in short order, the car will be like new again.

You seem to just want to sell the car because there's a history of it not working, ignoring the improvements and the fact that the main problem has been addressed.

...because you dont put too much faith into the fact that trading Russ, the cancer hed become to the culture, the financial weight he carried, and the schematic challenges he posed is 'significant'.