One thing is very clear

[theENGLISHseahawk]

I personally think the news about his pregnant girlfriend didn't make him undraftable, his agent claiming if he wasn't drafted in the first 3 rounds he would refuse to sign and reenter the 2017 draft was what did it. I think a team would have burnt a 6th or 7th if they thought he would sign but were afraid of the wasted pick if he didn't.
They should have burnt the 7th on Collins and then waited to see what happened with the murder case, once he was cleared you call the agent on his bluff.

Yeah, just take a flier on the dude who the police wanted to talk to about the murdered pregnant woman.

Just wait and see what happens with that.

No biggie.

If he's guilty just cut him, maybe try sneak him onto the practise squad.

:roll:

 

[TwistedHusky]

English,

We live in a society that, for the most part (remove the obvious political reality here) needs to start with the assumption that you are innocent until proven beyond a reasonable doubt, or at least as long as reasonable doubt exists. Not all doubt but at least reasonable doubt.

Generally, people that are victimized tend to be victimized by those in their circles. So it makes sense the police would want to talk to him if someone he was close to died, and there was a reasonable concern that he could benefit from her death (not saying he did or did not). Fair enough.

But it is not reasonable to assume that because someone is accused of something they are guilty. People accuse people all the time for a variety of reasons, from personal gain to petty revenge, even to a sense of power. The idea that accusation should mean = assumption of truth, is ridiculous.

For that reason, taking a flyer made sense. Now, I have been clear I don' t about what Elliott did and I don't know what happened with Hardy, but there is enough doubt there I would not be concerned with his signing. My issue with Hardy is his track record of disregarding his team and his coach.

Terrible people still help teams win games. Charles Haley was a borderline sex offender from the stories, and because of that he was cut from the 49ers. But that was the difference that propelled the Cowboys over the 49ers for years. They gave up SBs for that move, was it worth it? That is a matter of opinion. He still did his job, and still won, just somewhere else.

For the record, I would not be OK with a rapist on my team, nor am I saying he is one. But that stand hurt the 49ers and did not really hurt Haley.

It wouldn't stop me from playing Elliott though. And it wouldn't stop me from drafting La'El - though I would not sign him until he was cleared. But it wasn't like taking on a flyer that COULD be innocent and WAS ...did not make sense.

There is a huge, ginormous gap between a murderer and someone the police want to question. I don't think it was unreasonable to expect because there was not enough time to evaluate guilt vs innocence that you just give the benefit of the doubt to the player so the legal system can run its course.

 

[theENGLISHseahawk]

The whole 'innocent until proven guilty' line is a major red herring in this topic.

When it emerges a prospect is being pursued by the police over a murder right before the draft -- with no time to investigate this situation -- you don't draft that guy. Which is why EVERY SINGLE TEAM IN THE LEAGUE passed on him and chose not to sign him as an UDFA immediately after the draft.

Five days later the Cowboys signed him when he still hadn't been cleared.

Why is this still going?

:shock:

 

[TwistedHusky]

Well, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

Unless someone is guilty, if he has talent and skill in an area you have need - you draft him. As long as the cost of potentially wasting that draft pick is not high and a 6th or even 5th round pick is worth it. Hell, we lost that for having crappy practices.

The fact is, an opportunity to improve the OL presented itself. It required some risk but brought some potential gain.

We squandered that opportunity. And right now we have a porous line, perhaps the worst line I have ever seen - including last year. Better at pass blocking but lost so much run blocking who cares. And no LT.

And every team in the league passes on a lot of guys for a lot of reasons, each time that was an opportunity to go against the trend and get a benefit.

If we had done it, we would have been a better team. You say, not worth the risk. I say, if there was a chance he was innocent it was worth it.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

This team needs to quit letting OL walk thinking they can easily replace them.

Stop. Now. Cable is lying to you. Or delusional.

No more guys that cannot play OL yet but "we think they can learn", by the time they do learn we lose them. Get guys that can play and draft them in reasonable draft slots. Or sign guys that got arrested and dropped, if they want to kill people on their personal time just make sure they can play OL. No more winging it with 7th round castoffs.

I don't care if they are bad people, they just need to be good blockers.

No more letting good OL guys go or trading them away because you think we can get someone else cheaper. We can't.

So far we have lost:

Okung.

Carpenter.

Unger.

Breno.

Sweezy.



I get you cannot keep everyone. But not keeping anyone isn't working. I get some of these were trades some were walks.

But it does not matter. What matters is those guys above would have contributed more to winning than 2 shiny receivers (Harvin & Graham) that do not.

For a team that seems to understand the value of having a great otherworldly QB, we seem to place no value in keeping him upright, or blocking for the RBs we hope will work out for us........

I said the same basic thing on another thread. Hindsight being 20/20 for sure, but it's blatantly obvious that the Graham and Harvin trades and subsequent salary cap hits are biting the team in the ass and badly. The hope I have is that Pete and John have learned their lesson and invest next year in o-line since the Graham and Harvin contracts will no longer be on the books.

Seen similar comments on this board before, and it is definitely flawed. Let me start by letting you know that Harvin is already off the books. Williams and Lynch will fall off the books next year. Secondly, this isn't the last year of Graham's deal, so don't make assumptions that our front office is giving up on him or that he agrees to a restructure. Everyone asked we were letting kearse walk. We'll, guess what? He's still here.

Thanks fir the clarification, and I forgot until recently about Lymch. As for Graham, isn't it correct he has no guarenteed money next year? I'd love a clarification on that.

 

[nIdahoSeahawk]

This team needs to quit letting OL walk thinking they can easily replace them.

Stop. Now. Cable is lying to you. Or delusional.

No more guys that cannot play OL yet but "we think they can learn", by the time they do learn we lose them. Get guys that can play and draft them in reasonable draft slots. Or sign guys that got arrested and dropped, if they want to kill people on their personal time just make sure they can play OL. No more winging it with 7th round castoffs.

I don't care if they are bad people, they just need to be good blockers.

No more letting good OL guys go or trading them away because you think we can get someone else cheaper. We can't.

So far we have lost:

Okung.

Carpenter.

Unger.

Breno.

Sweezy.



I get you cannot keep everyone. But not keeping anyone isn't working. I get some of these were trades some were walks.

But it does not matter. What matters is those guys above would have contributed more to winning than 2 shiny receivers (Harvin & Graham) that do not.

For a team that seems to understand the value of having a great otherworldly QB, we seem to place no value in keeping him upright, or blocking for the RBs we hope will work out for us........

I said the same basic thing on another thread. Hindsight being 20/20 for sure, but it's blatantly obvious that the Graham and Harvin trades and subsequent salary cap hits are biting the team in the ass and badly. The hope I have is that Pete and John have learned their lesson and invest next year in o-line since the Graham and Harvin contracts will no longer be on the books.

Seen similar comments on this board before, and it is definitely flawed. Let me start by letting you know that Harvin is already off the books. Williams and Lynch will fall off the books next year. Secondly, this isn't the last year of Graham's deal, so don't make assumptions that our front office is giving up on him or that he agrees to a restructure. Everyone asked we were letting kearse walk. We'll, guess what? He's still here.

Thanks fir the clarification, and I forgot until recently about Lymch. As for Graham, isn't it correct he has no guarenteed money next year? I'd love a clarification on that.

Sorry for the delay, haven't been on since my last post. First, I'm sorry for the grammar issues lol, autocorrect really got me there. You're absolutely correct, Graham carries no dead money, so we can easily cut ties if we choose to without repercussions.

 

[kobebryant]

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the legal system, not employment opportunities.

 

[TwistedHusky]

You are conflating things.

First, while it does apply to the legal system - that means there legally is no issue with the organization signing him. Unless you feel there is a potential threat by civil lawsuit? But most of the time that would be made against the player, not the team.

Second, drafting a player is NOT employment. It is an opportunity, but from the perspective of the club it has nothing to do with employment. A draft of the player is like owning an option. You have the right to sign them, but you are not obligated. 6th and even 5th round picks do not make teams all the time.

As pointed out, the player was signed five days after the draft. So clearly there was adequate time to draft, evaluate the opportunity and make a decision to sign or not.

Now, admittedly, I am on record as not caring what a player does off the field. But obviously even I am not OK with a team signing a murderer (unless that are an All Star All Everything guy like say a Ray Lewis) but we are not talking about a murderer. We are talking about someone that needed to be questioned. Someone that was ultimately cleared and therefore likely completely innocent.

I am not sure why it makes sense for the club to deny itself the option to sign a great player because someone else is worried that they may or may not be guilty of a crime. If guilty, then you do not sign him. You are out the draft pick. If cleared, you have a much better player than you could otherwise get. The risk is the loss of a pick, not the chance that you have a murderer on your team - that chance is minimal.

 

[xgeoff]

My big thing is that these OLinemen seem to play so much better on these other teams then they did for the Seahawks. Carpenter and Okung? I wasn't sorry to seem them go. I thought they were liabilities here. They look like all-stars for their current teams.

I am thoroughly convinced that they would still be playing like crap for the Seahawks. And what that says to me is that Tom Cable is not good. Whatever he's telling these guys to do, it is not good.

 

[johnnyfever]

My big thing is that these OLinemen seem to play so much better on these other teams then they did for the Seahawks. Carpenter and Okung? I wasn't sorry to seem them go. I thought they were liabilities here. They look like all-stars for their current teams.

I am thoroughly convinced that they would still be playing like crap for the Seahawks. And what that says to me is that Tom Cable is not good. Whatever he's telling these guys to do, it is not good.

While I still have faith at this point in cable, there is definitely a valid argument here.

 

[mrt144]

My big thing is that these OLinemen seem to play so much better on these other teams then they did for the Seahawks. Carpenter and Okung? I wasn't sorry to seem them go. I thought they were liabilities here. They look like all-stars for their current teams.

I am thoroughly convinced that they would still be playing like crap for the Seahawks. And what that says to me is that Tom Cable is not good. Whatever he's telling these guys to do, it is not good.

Seriously, if teh Hawks have an issue maximizing the potential of players in their stead, it's not on the players, especially when there is some validation that they can and do go on to perform better in greener pa$ture$

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

My big thing is that these OLinemen seem to play so much better on these other teams then they did for the Seahawks. Carpenter and Okung? I wasn't sorry to seem them go. I thought they were liabilities here. They look like all-stars for their current teams.

I am thoroughly convinced that they would still be playing like crap for the Seahawks. And what that says to me is that Tom Cable is not good. Whatever he's telling these guys to do, it is not good.

While I still have faith at this point in cable, there is definitely a valid argument here.

Agree 100% about the valid argument but I'm rapidly losing faith in Cable and this is a huge reason.

 

[LeftHandSmoke]

The idea that O Linemen have excelled in other places after they left the Hawks, is there quantifiable evidence to support that? Did they significantly step up in their run-blocking success?

Or, did they hang on for <2.3 secs until some QB threw the ball away, got intercepted, or maybe lucked into a 4 yd catch by someone?

 

[HawkinNY]

Regardless of how this season plays out, I expect to see a completely different team this time next year.

I doubt it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[chet380]

I think it's pretty disgusting that the level of the debate this week has now resorted to two people arguing the team made a mistake in not signing a player who, at the time of signing in Dallas, had not yet cleared his name after the police wished to talk to him about the murder of a pregnant woman.

Get a grip.

Make it 3 people

The most important fact at the time: Collins was not arrested -- if he was a true suspect, he would have been arrested.

I f there had been an effort made, it would have been a simple matter to hire a private investigator (usually an ex-cop) and a lawyer with connections to determine what was really happening regarding Collins.

That not a single team took a chance with a 7th Rd, pick indicates to me that there was league- wide collusion to blackball him in the draft,

(See also Ray Rice).