Penny

[chris98251]

Wow using your logic he is better then Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Earl Campbell, Emmitt Smith, Franco Harris, Shaun Alexander, Ladinian Thomlinson, Gayle Sayers, Walter Payton and almost everyone else that has been a Starter for any NFL Franchise.

Are those guys playing this year? If there is a logic fail it was with your post. Lol...

No you take a Stat and try to make it all encompassing for why he should be a starter, I simply said all those backs and almost every other one in the league would not start over him given you standards. Which really is saying your cherry picking for validation of your argument.

Lol. K bud. The stat is the stat. I only deal in facts bro. Here is another one. Chris Carson leads the league in fumbles on a team that has a coach who’s number one priority is protect the ball.

Yea ok, we have 100 percent sunny days in the Seattle area because there is light and that means a sun somewhere therefore it never rains.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Are those guys playing this year? If there is a logic fail it was with your post. Lol...

No you take a Stat and try to make it all encompassing for why he should be a starter, I simply said all those backs and almost every other one in the league would not start over him given you standards. Which really is saying your cherry picking for validation of your argument.

Lol. K bud. The stat is the stat. I only deal in facts bro. Here is another one. Chris Carson leads the league in fumbles on a team that has a coach who’s number one priority is protect the ball.

Yea ok, we have 100 percent sunny days in the Seattle area because there is light and that means a sun somewhere therefore it never rains.

Again..... I deal with facts. Not sure why it upsets you so much.

 

[scutterhawk]

No you take a Stat and try to make it all encompassing for why he should be a starter, I simply said all those backs and almost every other one in the league would not start over him given you standards. Which really is saying your cherry picking for validation of your argument.

Lol. K bud. The stat is the stat. I only deal in facts bro. Here is another one. Chris Carson leads the league in fumbles on a team that has a coach who’s number one priority is protect the ball.

Yea ok, we have 100 percent sunny days in the Seattle area because there is light and that means a sun somewhere therefore it never rains.

Again..... I deal with facts. Not sure why it upsets you so much.

LOL, Yah, the only "Facts" that you're "Dealing" with, is your "Delusions of Grandeur"

 

[therealjohncarlson]

The issue here isn't Penny it's Carson he's not the same RB he was last year. Then there's his fumble problems he has to clean that up . The Vikings game is important for Carson he needs to hold on to the ball and have a good game . We'll see what Penny can do if he has another good game you can expect them to start splitting carries.

Agreed but they already have started splitting carries. Look at the splits since our bye week.

 

[scutterhawk]

The issue here isn't Penny it's Carson he's not the same RB he was last year. Then there's his fumble problems he has to clean that up . The Vikings game is important for Carson he needs to hold on to the ball and have a good game . We'll see what Penny can do if he has another good game you can expect them to start splitting carries.

Agreed but they already have started splitting carries. Look at the splits since our bye week.

That was an essential move as far as I'm concerned, Carson was being overworked, though I don't believe that his fumble issues were tied to exhaustion, I think that in the beginning, it was more of a mental lapse, and then teams keyed on his tendency to carry the ball without tucking it away.
Right now, the splits with Penny just might be the change of pace that is needed, that and it could help Carson stay fresher.

 

[Thepeelsessions]

Not sure if this has been talked about yet, but this is exactly why I can never trust Pete and friends. Schotty is saying that despite Penny's success and Carson's fumbling issues and mediocrity, they're still sticking with Carson.

 

[scutterhawk]

Not sure if this has been talked about yet, but this is exactly why I can never trust Pete and friends. Schotty is saying that despite Penny's success and Carson's fumbling issues and mediocrity, they're still sticking with Carson.

Maybe it's because they haven't seen enough from Penny to rip the job out of Carson's hands.
Carson is NOT "Mediocre", he is in the top ten of ALL RB's in the League.
What is SUB "Mediocre", is lame fans who THINK they know better than PROFFESIONAL COACHES in the National Football League.
Some jokers in here think that they have all the answers, so....Hmmm. why ain'tcheall Coaching a team IN the National Football League? :mrgreen:

 

[Thepeelsessions]

Not sure if this has been talked about yet, but this is exactly why I can never trust Pete and friends. Schotty is saying that despite Penny's success and Carson's fumbling issues and mediocrity, they're still sticking with Carson.

Maybe it's because they haven't seen enough from Penny to rip the job out of Carson's hands.
Carson is NOT "Mediocre", he is in the top ten of ALL RB's in the League.
What is SUB "Mediocre", is lame fans who THINK they know better than PROFFESIONAL COACHES in the National Football League.
Some jokers in here think that they have all the answers, so....Hmmm. why ain'tcheall Coaching a team IN the National Football League? :mrgreen:

Carson is in the top 10 due to volume and volume alone. Can honestly tell me, without your Seahawk bias, that you would rather have Carson over 10 of the other starting RBs in the league? Look, I'm not saying he's absolute trash. I love having a decent running game, but Carson is definitely a replacement level plodder with a bad fumbling problem. He's averaging 4.2 yards per carry with massive volume. With a pretty decent O-line, that's mediocre.

Is it working with Carson? Yes. Can it improve? Yes. Can it improve with more Penny and less Carson? Maybe. That's what I want to find out.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

They were supportive of Tedric Thompson, too, right up until they weren't. If he keeps coughing it up, Pete will reduce his load. Remember, we're in uncharted territory - the two RB's haven't been in this relative position before.

 

[AgentDib]

I would think that Seahawks fans would support both Penny and Carson. There's plenty of room on the team for both of them considering their different styles, the high incidence of injury among RBs, and the focus that this offense puts on the running game.

That being said, Penny is 100% responsible for the number of carries he gets on Sundays. Fans always fall back on coaching staff bias when they are arguing that a player should be getting more snaps and it's always nonsense. Pete is completely focused on short-term winning and he will play the players that give him the best chance of winning vs. the Vikings. Hopefully both RBs see significant playing time because they are gaining so many yards, but if Penny doesn't get the reps then it is because of factors he can control - performance in practice, excess weight, knowledge of the playbook, pass protection, etc.

 

[olyfan63]

They were supportive of Tedric Thompson, too, right up until they weren't. If he keeps coughing it up, Pete will reduce his load. Remember, we're in uncharted territory - the two RB's haven't been in this relative position before.

That being said, Penny is 100% responsible for the number of carries he gets on Sundays. Fans always fall back on coaching staff bias when they are arguing that a player should be getting more snaps and it's always nonsense. Pete is completely focused on short-term winning and he will play the players that give him the best chance of winning vs. the Vikings. Hopefully both RBs see significant playing time because they are gaining so many yards, but if Penny doesn't get the reps then it is because of factors he can control - performance in practice, excess weight, knowledge of the playbook, pass protection, etc.

The REAL FACTS of the situation. The "Data Point" that Penny is averaging 5.9 YPC is an interesting piece of data, but that's all, just an isolated piece of data, not that helpful in deciding which back to hand the ball to on 3rd and 2, with what type of running play, or whether to pass the ball instead. You'd think someone who claims in his screen name to be a "scientist" would have more respect for the complexity of causative factors and the limits of "science" and analytics. Those things are *awesome* in the appropriate context; but repeatedly bleating an isolated data point is of very limited usefulness without context. Type of play? Down and distance/game situation? Type of defense and personnel being shown by the opponent? Specific matchup advantages that can be exploited along the line, or in the secondary?

On 3rd and 2, I'm giving Carson the rock over Penny, 95% of the time. Carson is simply way better right now at finding that initial crease and powering through it. And if a LB or DB meets Carson in the hole, Carson is by far the more likely back to power through that and pick up the 2 yards and a first down anyway. Anyone who has watched the Seahawks the last couple seasons doesn't need advanced analytics to know that.

All that said, I love the potential that is there in Penny's game and he deserves chances to get the experience and learn and to show his stuff. Personally, I think Pete has limited Penny's reps and carries as a message and motivating factor for Penny. I think right now, as others have said, Pete is going to give Penny more opportunities going forward, because he needs to avoid overusing Carson and having him too dinged up to run strongly during the last month of regular season and the postseason. It also looks like Penny is increasingly earning his opportunities.

..."Schottenheimer explained that the team had been talking about getting Penny more chances, and that they decided in the Eagles game to “get him into a rotation.” Soooo.... translation, Pete, via Schotty, weighed in with his opinion, in real time during the Eagles game, but "Penny’s 14 carries for 129 yards and Carson’s six for 26 doesn’t mean that Penny has supplanted Carson". See https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... r-guy/amp/
Carson got his ass kicked by the coaching staff, got strong feedback during the Eagles game, about Pete's feelings regarding all the fumbles. How much clearer could Pete have possibly made it?

Montana, WTH, pulling out a relevant fact that shows the contrast between Pete's actual commitment to Tedric Thompson, vs. Pete's public verbal statements, and that sometimes the two differ? Then you unabashedly state that actual performance matters more to Pete than playing favorites? And then you cap all that by coldly stating that always com-Pete could potentially apply this even to sacred bell-cow Carson? No! Say it isn't so!

AgentDib, you are such a ruthless and relentless peddler of relevant facts, could you dial it back a notch or two so as not to keep continually showing up those who *claim* they have some sort of monopoly on "facts"? You snuck into a small space, by my count, 5 on-the-money fact-zingers in there. Maybe limit to no more than 3 per post? No? OK, we'll all just enjoy all 5 anyway.

So, against the Vikings Monday, I think we can expect to see Carson still be the featured back, but for Penny to get in a couple series in each half. And Carson will be on a short leash.

 

[Tamerlane]

Carson is in the top 10 due to volume and volume alone. Can honestly tell me, without your Seahawk bias, that you would rather have Carson over 10 of the other starting RBs in the league? Look, I'm not saying he's absolute trash. I love having a decent running game, but Carson is definitely a replacement level plodder with a bad fumbling problem. He's averaging 4.2 yards per carry with massive volume. With a pretty decent O-line, that's mediocre.

I can't even fathom how anyone could watch Carson and use the word "mediocre". The reason he is a top 10 or even top 5 running back has nothing to do with volume (although his ability to achieve volume is noteworthy). Whlie many other top RBs are firing through massive holes created by superior blocking, Carson more than most has to create his own yards, busting tackles behind the lines regularly - something Penny has been unable to do reliably.

You don't need volume stats or Seahawk goggles to see Carson at the very top of the league. Last year PFF ranked Carson #5 RB in the league for the season and their grading system is per play and in no way based on volume. Using a very different system of evaluation, based on the Expected Points Added (EPA) framework, Sports Info Solution ranks Carson #5 in the league this year, fumbles and all.

https://www.sisdatahub.com/leaderboards/RB

It's not easy to distinguish the contributions of an RB versus his OL to run success. That's why statistics showing what happens to running backs when they make contact with a defender are particularly useful. Here are two long-term snapshots of just how impressive Carson has been:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/PFF/status/1188821027318648832[/tweet]

For those that aren't Carson fans, you better brace yourself because I would put heavy odds on him getting a juicy extension.

 

[olyfan63]

Damn, for a "benchwarmer", you sure are bringing it! Practically read my mind, I was wondering about Yards-After-Contact and Broken Tackles stats, because the ol' Eye Test (tm) sure shows that Carson breaks tackles a dime a dozen and trucks so many dudes that try to tackle him, that he's gotta be among the league leaders in that kind of stuff. I still love Penny and have high hopes for his continued development, as my sig attests, but Carson is DA MAN, and so much fun to watch week in and week out, aside from the pesky fumbling issue.

Thanks for the RELEVANT stats and data that back up the *facts* we see occurring in nearly every Carson run!

Some Chris Carson FACTS on display in this 2018 highlights video: (My favorite Carson plays start about 3:18 into the video)
[youtube]HIvZ00rfBuU[/youtube]

 

[MontanaHawk05]

I see an equal chance of Penny becoming a feature back and excelling, as I do becoming a feature back and seeing his YPC drop to 3.8 because he doesn't break the tackles Carson does. Both seem equally possible at this point.

Because Carson doesn't just batter through six tackles for three yards. He also batters through them for eleven. If you really want to try and convince me that that isn't valuable, your football knowledge is at the journeyman stage.

 

[LastRideOut]

I see an equal chance of Penny becoming a feature back and excelling, as I do becoming a feature back and seeing his YPC drop to 3.8 because he doesn't break the tackles Carson does. Both seem equally possible at this point.

Because Carson doesn't just batter through six tackles for three yards. He also batters through them for eleven. If you really want to try and convince me that that isn't valuable, your football knowledge is at the journeyman stage.

I agree Carson is awesome. The fumbles have to go away.

 

[quadsas]

Carson is in the top 10 due to volume and volume alone. Can honestly tell me, without your Seahawk bias, that you would rather have Carson over 10 of the other starting RBs in the league? Look, I'm not saying he's absolute trash. I love having a decent running game, but Carson is definitely a replacement level plodder with a bad fumbling problem. He's averaging 4.2 yards per carry with massive volume. With a pretty decent O-line, that's mediocre.

I can't even fathom how anyone could watch Carson and use the word "mediocre". The reason he is a top 10 or even top 5 running back has nothing to do with volume (although his ability to achieve volume is noteworthy). Whlie many other top RBs are firing through massive holes created by superior blocking, Carson more than most has to create his own yards, busting tackles behind the lines regularly - something Penny has been unable to do reliably.

You don't need volume stats or Seahawk goggles to see Carson at the very top of the league. Last year PFF ranked Carson #5 RB in the league for the season and their grading system is per play and in no way based on volume. Using a very different system of evaluation, based on the Expected Points Added (EPA) framework, Sports Info Solution ranks Carson #5 in the league this year, fumbles and all.

https://www.sisdatahub.com/leaderboards/RB

It's not easy to distinguish the contributions of an RB versus his OL to run success. That's why statistics showing what happens to running backs when they make contact with a defender are particularly useful. Here are two long-term snapshots of just how impressive Carson has been:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/PFF/status/1188821027318648832[/tweet]

For those that aren't Carson fans, you better brace yourself because I would put heavy odds on him getting a juicy extension.

As much as Pete loves Carson I think if Penny flukes his way into another game full of holes in the trenches then Carson will light the league up somewhere else.

Anyone who watches the game can easily see that Penny is probably 1/5 of Seahawks runningback that Carson is. Carson fumbles are a weird phenomena cause he never was a fumbler, and out of sudden all those start happening. was it variance not fumbling the ball, or is it variance that he is just fumbling this season. Who knows. Benching him would be a massive, massive mistake.

 

[scutterhawk]

I would think that Seahawks fans would support both Penny and Carson. There's plenty of room on the team for both of them considering their different styles, the high incidence of injury among RBs, and the focus that this offense puts on the running game.

That being said, Penny is 100% responsible for the number of carries he gets on Sundays. Fans always fall back on coaching staff bias when they are arguing that a player should be getting more snaps and it's always nonsense. Pete is completely focused on short-term winning and he will play the players that give him the best chance of winning vs. the Vikings. Hopefully both RBs see significant playing time because they are gaining so many yards, but if Penny doesn't get the reps then it is because of factors he can control - performance in practice, excess weight, knowledge of the playbook, pass protection, etc.

I couldn't have summed it up any better :2thumbs:

 

[ImTheScientist]

What should happen tonight if always compete is a real thing: Minimally Penny/Carson split carries.

What will happen: Pete will do a 20/5 carry split between Carson/Penny proving that always compete only applies to some and he plays favorites.

 

[quadsas]

What should happen tonight if always compete is a real thing: Minimally Penny/Carson split carries.

What will happen: Pete will do a 20/5 carry split between Carson/Penny proving that always compete only applies to some and he plays favorites.

Just completely forgetting Penny doing his absolute best to kill our QB. I'll take a fumble over a big hit on the QB

 

[chris98251]

What should happen tonight if always compete is a real thing: Minimally Penny/Carson split carries.

What will happen: Pete will do a 20/5 carry split between Carson/Penny proving that always compete only applies to some and he plays favorites.

As Head Coach, President of Football operations he gets to do what he wants.