Please Pete, Fix our OL Next Year

[volsunghawk]

Receivers don't always get seen, but for a guy as up his own ass as Doug is, it's unacceptable for him to literally stand and watch a defender run by him like that. Way to have your teammates back.

Yeah, I wondered about that a bit. Baldwin looks a little stunned that the ball didn't come his way, as he just stands there after Moeaki makes the catch. He then moves up to hinder the defender chasing Moeaki, but doesn't lay a finger on him. Part of me wonders if Baldwin was just pissed off at the entire scenario, and part of me wonders if Baldwin was trying to play it ultra-safe and avoid getting penalized for a ticky-tacky hold on the play. After all, our team does tend to get flagged more than any other team in the league, and there must be times when the players feel as if any big play they have is going to get wiped out. Maybe it was a little bit of both, but I'm not going to speculate. I'm sure that the coaches have brought that up in their meetings.

 

[pehawk]

part of me wonders if Baldwin was trying to play it ultra-safe and avoid getting penalized for a ticky-tacky hold on the play..

That was my thought.

 

[AgentDib]

Durability is the important part to me as well. For whatever reason, we have ended up with a bunch of injury prone guys and our depth is not adequate as a result. I think most of us would be extremely happy with an Okung/Carp/Unger/Sweezy/Britt line next season if they started 19 games together but at this point that feels like 49er fans wishing for accurate passes out of Kaep. We'll keep on drafting OL we just need a couple to stick and remain healthy.

I don't think talking about the relative importance of OL is meaningful. Every position group is important and what determines your championship worthiness is the weighted average of how many standard deviations every position group is away from the mean. You can make up for a weak area by being strong elsewhere, but if you aren't very good at anything then you need to be mostly good at everything. There are as many champions with "good" SRS on both defense and offense as there are good offense/average defense or vice versa. Yes, the Packers won a super bowl behind the best QB in the league with an average OL. They also lost a season completely when Rodgers broke his collarbone after a sack.

 

[DavidSeven]

To be fair, yes, Baldwin could've absolutely blocked that better, but he may have pulled up in fear of drawing a penalty for an illegal peel-back block, which has been emphasized ever since Golden Tate de-cleated Sean Lee two years ago. A personal foul negating that play would've been devastating.

Baldwin is a heady player and probably took the potential penalty into consideration.

 

[brimsalabim]

I approve this message. But realistically Wilson just needs an OL that is average at pass blocking. He's mobile so his OL is better served to be the same. Personally I'd just pay Brandon Marshall or Dez Bryant and not focus 4 years on an OL Wilson doesn't actually need.


As it is Moeki or any TE or RB with half a clue about catching a ball in the flats after everybody is fooled by a RO or typical off schedule scramble works about as well 85-90% of the time anyway.

MizzouHawkGal For The Win!

Of all things, the Philadelphia Eagles site has a really nice breakdown of our offensive approach.
http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/news/ ... 9651994787

Exactly what you said about Brandon Marshall or Dez Bryant vs wasting expensive OL Wilson wouldn't benefit from. Or trade up and score a Kelvin Benjamin/Odell Beckham Jr./Julio Jones in the draft.

I'm off the "Fire Cable" and "Fire the whole damn OL" bandwagon. A lot of what we see is by design, to take advantage of the strengths of our QB, and part of Pete and John's Moneyball calculation. Pete prefers to spend on elite defenders first, and has shown he'll spend big on #1 WR's too; Pete just has had $h1t for luck on the WR front.

I think it was ScotteMojo that had a great breakdown of the AZ Cardinal's 7 sacks on Wilson in a *Cardinals Loss*. After reviewing that breakdown, our OL didn't seem nearly as bad as the numbers indicated; that about 2 were on the OL and the others on Wilson plus play design. Pete's philosophy seems to be that a sack is way, way better than a pick.

not as bad...does not mean good...

 

[sam1313]

part of me wonders if Baldwin was trying to play it ultra-safe and avoid getting penalized for a ticky-tacky hold on the play..

That was my thought.

Plus, there is no way that guy should have been able to catch Moeaki after he had to totally go around ADB. I'm sure ADB assumed Moeaki had the TD already.

 

[brimsalabim]

I approve this message. But realistically Wilson just needs an OL that is average at pass blocking. He's mobile so his OL is better served to be the same. Personally I'd just pay Brandon Marshall or Dez Bryant and not focus 4 years on an OL Wilson doesn't actually need.


As it is Moeki or any TE or RB with half a clue about catching a ball in the flats after everybody is fooled by a RO or typical off schedule scramble works about as well 85-90% of the time anyway.

MizzouHawkGal For The Win!

Of all things, the Philadelphia Eagles site has a really nice breakdown of our offensive approach.
http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/news/ ... 9651994787

Exactly what you said about Brandon Marshall or Dez Bryant vs wasting expensive OL Wilson wouldn't benefit from. Or trade up and score a Kelvin Benjamin/Odell Beckham Jr./Julio Jones in the draft.

I'm off the "Fire Cable" and "Fire the whole damn OL" bandwagon. A lot of what we see is by design, to take advantage of the strengths of our QB, and part of Pete and John's Moneyball calculation. Pete prefers to spend on elite defenders first, and has shown he'll spend big on #1 WR's too; Pete just has had $h1t for luck on the WR front.

I think it was ScotteMojo that had a great breakdown of the AZ Cardinal's 7 sacks on Wilson in a *Cardinals Loss*. After reviewing that breakdown, our OL didn't seem nearly as bad as the numbers indicated; that about 2 were on the OL and the others on Wilson plus play design. Pete's philosophy seems to be that a sack is way, way better than a pick.

not as bad...does not mean good...

 

[FargoHawk]

Completely agree with this but what is our weak spot? It feels like our O-line should've good already but it just doesn't show on the field.

Sweezy is good
Unger is good
Britt is learning
Okung is good (when healthy)
Carpenter has been good this year (when healthy)

I think LG is the clear spot needed for an upgrade but is that it?? Who do we replace?

 

[grizbob]

15 years ago who'd a thunk it, that 9 months removed from a Lombardi and sitting at 8 and 4 Todd Breda would be lamenting the O line where else would you rather be than right here right now :th2thumbs: DAMN it feels good being a Hawks fan :thirishdrinkers:

Regarding the OP, I'm thinking Pete and John are still serving sweet Koolaid :179422:

 

[hawknation2014]

Constructing an OL like Dallas has is easier said than done. Three of their linemen are First Round picks, and they amazingly hit on all three.

Of the 19 offensive tackles drafted in 2014, none of them have looked 'great.' The four selected in the First Round have all struggled.

Jake Matthews has looked terrible as both a run blocker and pass protector. Matthews has allowed a league-high 39 pressures, including six sacks, and has yet to have a positive game as a run blocker. Most of time, he has been manhandled like a rag doll.

Ja'Wuan James has allowed 31 pressures and has not had an impact as a run blocker.

Greg Robinson had some solid games at left guard, but has looked average at best since being moved outside to tackle.

Taylor Lewan has been solid but not spectacular. He and Justin Britt are the only rookie OTs out of 19 who have really flashed in the run game.

The only rookie center who has played great this year is Green Bay's 5th Rounder Corey Linsley. I thought Mebane and Co. would eat Linsley's lunch in the opener, but he held his own and looks to have an extremely bright future. The rest of this class's centers have been average (Bryan Stork and Chris Watt) to awful (Marcus Martin and Jonotthan Harrison).

Guard is one of the bright areas in this rookie class. Joel Bitonio and Zach Martin have played like Pro Bowlers. Bitionio has the highest run blocking grade PFF has awarded a rookie since Mike Iupati in 2010. He has also allowed just nine pressures and no sacks. The Seahawks have to be kicking themselves that they didn't take Bitonio at No. 32.

 

[jlwaters1]

It's not all on the pass protection. The "top passers" take more chances than Russell is shown to take. Its a huge reason they throw for 300 yard games for the win on some days, and 300 yard games for the loss on others. Until Wilson feels comfortable making these types of throws below, whether it's the receivers or him, he'll keep playing it safe, protect the ball, and rack up 200 "safe" yards in the air and 50+ yards on the ground.


[tweet]https://twitter.com/FieldGulls/status/540788582105878529[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/FieldGulls/status/540788685008928769[/tweet]

That's really not great to see. Absolutely has to pull the trigger there, huge amount of space for him to throw it to and Doug to make the adjustment. Don't get a lot of opportunities like that. Oh well, at least we won.

What's weird was in the past he has attempted those throws. It seems like the last 1/4 of last year the coaches have encouraged him to be more conservative, and thus he's not taking as many shots. The coaches iMO, seems to be lets be more conservative because the defense is on fire and not give them a chance to win the game from Seattle turnovers.

 

[Jville]

The slowest of their 2013 starters is much ... much ... much ... quicker and mobile in 2014. The weakest lineman of 2013 is stronger for 2014. As the spread or gap in their talents becomes smaller and closer, the chemistry improves and they play better in concert with one another.

The OL is most definitely improving in 2014. And, we have just entered the season's 4th quarter ... as in ... December.

Go Hawks!

 

[BlueTalon]

I'd love an OL like Dallas, but I'd settle for one with continuity. Injuries have been brutal this year, which has been a big problem. Keep in mind that Britt is a rookie and can grow, which I think he will. His problem isn't ability, it's consistency and experience.

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

[kearly]

It's not all on the pass protection. The "top passers" take more chances than Russell is shown to take. Its a huge reason they throw for 300 yard games for the win on some days, and 300 yard games for the loss on others. Until Wilson feels comfortable making these types of throws below, whether it's the receivers or him, he'll keep playing it safe, protect the ball, and rack up 200 "safe" yards in the air and 50+ yards on the ground.


[tweet]https://twitter.com/FieldGulls/status/540788582105878529[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/FieldGulls/status/540788685008928769[/tweet]

That's really not great to see. Absolutely has to pull the trigger there, huge amount of space for him to throw it to and Doug to make the adjustment. Don't get a lot of opportunities like that. Oh well, at least we won.

When I saw an all-22 clip from the 49ers game when Wilson did his magical escape act and found Moeaki for a 15-yard pass that Moeaki turned into a 63-yard gain, I noticed something similar.

If Wilson had thrown the ball a bit further inside and about 15 yards deeper, Baldwin was ridiculously open. No one with 10 yards of him on any side, maybe more. If he hits Baldwin on that play, it's a TD.

I saw the same thing when reading that Philly fan article yesterday. I don't know why Wilson chooses to avoid WIDE open targets downfield sometimes, it must be because a sense of "it's too good to be true" doubt sets in. Wilson is on the move and has to make an ultra quick decision. He's probably assuming there's no way a WR would be that open, that there must be something he's not seeing, and instead goes for the safer play. If he had an extra second to double check the defense, he'd probably throw to Baldwin there.

The irony is that if Baldwin throws a decent block, it's a TD either way. It's funny sometimes how little things like that can cost a team points. And Baldwin is usually an outstanding blocker.

 

[hawknation2014]

I saw the same thing when reading that Philly fan article yesterday. I don't know why Wilson chooses to avoid WIDE open targets downfield sometimes, it must be because a sense of "it's too good to be true" doubt sets in. Wilson is on the move and has to make an ultra quick decision. He's probably assuming there's no way a WR would be that open, that there must be something he's not seeing, and instead goes for the safer play. If he had an extra second to double check the defense, he'd probably throw to Baldwin there.

The irony is that if Baldwin throws a decent block, it's a TD either way. It's funny sometimes how little things like that can cost a team points. And Baldwin is usually an outstanding blocker.

It's hard to see things happening downfield when you are running for your life like Wilson was on this play. The moment Baldwin got open was the same moment Wilson saw the blitzer barreling down on him unblocked. He had to make that guy miss twice to keep this play alive.

 

[theENGLISHseahawk]

Seahawks fans are destined to complain about offensive lines until the end of earth.

For starters -- go and watch that All-Star Cowboys line against the Redskins and Eagles. Two big fat home defeats where they were torn to shreds. Romo was so badly injured against Washington he couldn't play in the game against Arizona (a defeat) and he's having to take painkilling injections to get through games now.

The idea that other teams have these unbelievable lines with QB's who are never touched, sacked or pressured and get endless time in the pocket is a complete fallacy. A daydream made up by fans brought up on 'you only win in the trenches'.

Here's a question. If a team blitzes with six or even seven rushers (eg Arizona, frequently), do you expect any offensive line to just block the extra 1-2 defenders? How is that physically possible? It's up to the QB to either a.) scramble to extend the play or b.) get the ball out as quickly as possible, probably to a hot read.

Wilson is always going to struggle to stay in the pocket and find a hot read because he's 5-10. So more often than not he scrambles. Sometimes he scrambles when he doesn't even need to. Why? Because Pete Carroll wants him to. He wants to be the best scrambling team in the league and he knows Wilson is at his best out of the pocket. So you know what? A lot of the time he isn't running for his life. It's either by design or by Wilson's nature.

Have you ever considered how difficult it is to create a pocket for a QB who could literally be anywhere in the backfield? When you're blocking for Peyton Manning, it's much easier to set, execute a standard block and have a mental image of where your quarterback will be. Wilson moves around all the time -- again, even when he doesn't have to. If you set up a standard pocket for him and he scrambles left to throw -- are people really expecting Russell Okung to know this and adjust to protect his QB? It's a totally unrealistic expectation. Blocking for Wilson is almost as hard as it trying to contain him defensively.

According to Football Outsiders, Seattle ranks #6 overall for run blocking and #28 for pass blocking. Which kind of rings true given we're the #1 run offense and something like the #31 passing offense (if not #32). Seattle's priority is to run the football first and foremost. We get all caught up imagining what it'd be like if our passing offense was better, and yet our offensive line is providing the #1 run game and is ranked #6 overall in the entire league. Philadelphia is ranked #2 in pass protection and #29 in run blocking. They want to throw a ton and they've put the run game on the shelf for the most part (Shady McCoy was having a major down year until recently). Offensive philosophy plays a huge part here. We want to run the ball. It won us a title.

A few more stats. The Seahawks have given up 31 sacks. San Francisco has given up 38. The much vaunted Cowboys offensive line is ranked... wait for it... 21st for pass protection. 21st. They've given up just six fewer sacks than Seattle. This warrants a total rebuild on our behalf? So we can be the #21 pass protecting team instead of #28? And give up six fewer sacks? A few other comparisons... Green Bay has five fewer sacks. Detroit has four more sacks than Seattle. The Oakland Raiders at 1-11 have the #5 ranked pass protecting team in the entire league and have conceded just 18 sacks. So figure that out.

And finally -- you know what might actually help Wilson more than a change in offensive line? Some actual weapons. His #1 receiver is Doug Baldwin. He doesn't have hardly any genuine weapons to throw to. No great tight end. No great #1 wide out. That is a much bigger problem for this offense.

 

[Rat]

The Cowboys had to blow three first round picks to construct that OL, which is completely unnecessary and a colossal waste of the greatest asset that most teams have (first round picks). The OL needs improvement, but I'll be very disappointed if do something like using first and third rounders on it. LT is the only position I see as being worth a first rounder, with a few exceptions (I did support the Hutchinson and Spencer picks, as they were both elite prospects).

 

[Rat]

The idea that other teams have these unbelievable lines with QB's who are never touched, sacked or pressured and get endless time in the pocket is a complete fallacy. A daydream made up by fans brought up on 'you only win in the trenches'.

Thank you. I cringe whenever anyone spouts off that platitude.

 

[ivotuk]

Maybe, in our scheme, good guards are more important than good tackles. Has anybody considered that? After all, we run a lot of slant runs and sweeps where the guards and center have to pull, which requires more nimble guys with good feet that also tend to be smaller overall, moreso than big guys who can pass block. The ZBS relies heavily on mobility, right?

We remain committed to the run game, so perhaps interior linemen are more important than the outside guys.

I don't want to turn this into a draft thread, but I'm the kind of guy that thinks we should draft 1-2 O-linemen every year...not first rounders, necessarily, but somewhere in the draft you keep adding guys to the procession.

That is spot on. It's how New Orleans sets Drew Brees up, they invest heavy in Guards and a Center to protect the middle of his pocket. I think the same thing (a Left Guard) would be nice for Russell Wilson.

The idea of keeping Unger with Lemeul as a backup is a good one too, but pick up a future Center in the draft.

As far as any concerns about a solid pocket limiting Russell in the pocket, he didn't have any such problems in Wisconsin.

So yes, please, top priority imho should be left guard, then center, while shooting for a backup/future LT in mid rounds.

 

[pehawk]

Constructing an OL like Dallas has is easier said than done. Three of their linemen are First Round picks, and they amazingly hit on all three.

Of the 19 offensive tackles drafted in 2014, none of them have looked 'great.' The four selected in the First Round have all struggled.

Jake Matthews has looked terrible as both a run blocker and pass protector. Matthews has allowed a league-high 39 pressures, including six sacks, and has yet to have a positive game as a run blocker. Most of time, he has been manhandled like a rag doll.

Ja'Wuan James has allowed 31 pressures and has not had an impact as a run blocker.

Greg Robinson had some solid games at left guard, but has looked average at best since being moved outside to tackle.

Taylor Lewan has been solid but not spectacular. He and Justin Britt are the only rookie OTs out of 19 who have really flashed in the run game.

The only rookie center who has played great this year is Green Bay's 5th Rounder Corey Linsley. I thought Mebane and Co. would eat Linsley's lunch in the opener, but he held his own and looks to have an extremely bright future. The rest of this class's centers have been average (Bryan Stork and Chris Watt) to awful (Marcus Martin and Jonotthan Harrison).

Guard is one of the bright areas in this rookie class. Joel Bitonio and Zach Martin have played like Pro Bowlers. Bitionio has the highest run blocking grade PFF has awarded a rookie since Mike Iupati in 2010. He has also allowed just nine pressures and no sacks. The Seahawks have to be kicking themselves that they didn't take Bitonio at No. 32.

Good write up.

I actually like the OL in this order from 2014;

1) Zach Martin
2) Taylor Lewan
3) Justin Britt

Mathews will be fine, just fine. He's in a very tough spot, but, he'll be fine. Don't know much about Bitonio.

Another thing to remember about Dallas is they have the pass blocking equivalent of Tom Cable in Bill Callahan. He's pretty good. And it's not right to judge anyone that plays a Tucker defense. They seemed to be playing a prevent zone, with a three man rush, in the first quarter. It was bizarre.