Random Thoughts on the Dallas game

[Wagon12]

There are TWO ways to look at Seattle.

A) I am of the opinion that SF and Kaepernick/Harbaugh will never win a Super Bowl BECAUSE, when you take them out of their ability to run the ball, I don't think Kaepernick or their offensive playcalls are capable of throwing the ball.

It appears that Seattle has adopted that identity, BUT felt that the difference between both rosters was Wilson's ability to make throws and runs. Essentially the rosters are very close in talent, they have the offensive line, we have the secondary. Both "strengths" of SF and SEA are banged up.

B) Seattle is miles better than the rest of the NFL because we have the depth in spots that can overcome injuries IF they are not to the secondary. When your 2nd, 3rd and 4th CB's are not on the roster, I'm not sure how the original poster even approaches talking about Sherman.......You would be more apt to start at Earl Thomas, whose name was not called once yesterday.

Seattle is winning another super bowl in Glendale, once they restart the running attack, then get back to play action passing, absorb more clock on offense and get back Willson as a compliment to Zach Miller. You have to get back to running first, then attacking in the passing game and keeping the defense off the field and limiting the plays you expose your defense to......This also minimizes the exposure of the WR corp, which is not a strength of the roster.

What the team is doing and got burned on yesterday, is going through the expansion of how they want to play by showing a lot of fast paced offense, passing game, in an attempt to develop a weakness of the team. Seattle could look like SF and just hand the ball off and win 19-16 or 20-16 against a tougher opponent. Dallas essentially did the same thing to SF, but had turnovers and fell way behind. They dominated SF the same way stat wise that they did to Seattle.

Dallas is a playoff team, BUT they will not beat Seattle in Dallas and definitely would not win a rematch in Seattle. They don't have the personnel on defense and cannot stop a running attack. If you watched their games carefully and stop watching ESPN rave about them, they give up a lot of yards on the ground to folks like Arian Foster etc. If our secondary gets Maxwell, Lane and Simon back and places Burley somewhere else on specials or as an emergency DB, Seattle is fine.

Once Seattle dials up running plays and leans on Lynch and Turbin to get yards, things fall into place. I am not as concerned about any lack of focus or anything else. 10-6 could be the record but Super Bowl champions have had 6 0r 7 losses in a season.....The question is does Seattle have the pieces to run aggressively, stop passing attacks and get sacks....the answer to all THREE is yes....if you can do all 3 well, you win Super Bowls.....there is no other roster in the NFL that can dominate in these three phases....Seattle beats Denver in Glendale and goes back to back.....

What did Aaron Rodgers tell Packers fans three weeks ago.......R.....E...L....A.....X........relax......relax folks.....!!!

I appreciate your optimism and agree that running the ball is vital to regaining their identity and helping keep the defense off the field. However, I have serious doubts about the team's ability to generate a pass rush and get off the field on 3rd down. Even early in games when they're obviously fresh, we haven't seen nearly enough of that this season IMO.

Just going along with the comparison above, ummmm... the Niners vaunted pass rush has been virtually non-existent this year also...

Just get back to basics, I agree.

 

[HansGruber]

I applaud Carroll for putting Sherman on Dez after the Maxwell injury. Unfortunately, the move exposed Sherman as a player that is now clearly having a down season.

Uh.. what? Dez had two catches against Sherman.. one of them was an amazing grab.

If this is indicative of a "down season" ... Sherman is fine.

I do agree though that depth is a major concern right now. Feel bad for Burley and Terrell for being thrown in the fire. Maxwell is down for at least a couple games you have to believe.. we need Simon back ASAP.

And no, the Cowboys are not the best team in the NFC.

In total agreement here.

Sherman had a great game. He made a couple HUGE saves, and basically kept Seattle in that game after Maxwell went down with the injury. Further, you might not have seen it on TV at home, but Romo looked at Sherman numerous times, saw him blanketing Bryant and went somewhere else with the ball. He was making tackles on Murray, and stopped him once up by the 20 and was literally the only reason Dallas didn't score on the play. Further, you may not have seen it on TV, but when the team started getting worn down in the 4th, Sherman was out there getting the defense jacked out of their minds. He was also coaching up Terrell and Burley between snaps, and numerous times was correcting their coverage.

We almost won this game, and Sherman was a HUGE part of that. The defense just got outplayed in a lot of ways, but Sherman was not one of the weak points.

As much as I hate to say it, the injury to Chancellor is clearly affecting his play. He had a lot of tackles, but there was just no boom on his hits. You could clearly see that he's injured. When the rest of the team was dancing and jumping around between plays, getting the crowd fired up, Chancellor was just standing in place. That is very unusual for Kam.

We're just getting killed by injuries this season. Hopefully we get healthy and back into shape by December.

 

[Russ Willstrong]

We'll be okay.
Short week with little prep.
I contend the 3rd and 20 completion was a fluke. Romo was nearly sacked then throwing it to Witten but the ball looked to be overthrown. Williams made an impossible catch coming across the field. It was an improbable play really.

 

[Wagon12]

We'll be okay.
Short week with little prep.
I contend the 3rd and 20 completion was a fluke. Romo was nearly sacked then throwing it to Witten but the ball looked to be overthrown. Williams made an impossible catch coming across the field. It was an improbable play really.

Fair enough... I agree on the improbable play, but to be fair... if we're going to play that game...

Take away the blocked punt and the muffed punt along with Romo fumble off his knee... NOW how "close" is this game?

There is cause for alarm when the Cowboys did what they could to lose and still came out on top... For me at least.

 

[capncrunch]

We'll be okay.
Short week with little prep.
I contend the 3rd and 20 completion was a fluke. Romo was nearly sacked then throwing it to Witten but the ball looked to be overthrown. Williams made an impossible catch coming across the field. It was an improbable play really.

The guys on ESPN were talking about that pass. Romo was waving his hand to tell Witten to run deeper as he was scrambling and then overthrew Witten, the intended receiver only to have Williams run across and pull it down.

 

[TCHawkfan]

Maxwell dropping that pick 6 was a dagger, they scored seconds later. In fact Maxwell looked lost all day.

Very well was a 14 point swing right there and the Cowpokes have too much to overcome.]

 

[byau]

My random thoughts

First, the Dallas offense and defense ... kicked our butts. No question

It's not all doom and gloom yet. I don't see a lot of big issues, but I see a lot of small issues that interlink together

Dallas definitely imposed their will on us, or more accurately, they out-Seahawked the Seahawks.

In my order of importance:

Issue 1: offensive playcalling: more rushing!

And pound the ball with the rush. We have Marshawn. But Turbin actually isn't bad and what about all this Christian Michael stuff? And our fullbacks? Pound the ball and pound the ball and pound the ball.

Just because you only get two yard gains for a half does not mean it's not working. Pounding the ball is a game long commitment.

Pound the ball, make the D take a beating, and it opens up everything else whether it's bigger yardage in the rush or more passing.

Fighting analogy: UFC: Georges St. Pierre vs BJ Penn. St Pierre tried to take down BJ Penn the entire first round and was not successful. However, his gameplan later revealed he didn't have to be. His goal was to tired Penn's arm strength out, taking away his Penn's biggest advantage: his striking. In the 2nd and 3rd round, St. Pierre was then able to attack from all fronts: takedowns and striking and Penn had to give up after round 3.

Rushing game = same thing. Game long commitment

(Dallas did this very well. Murray was well under 100 yards rushing until the last 5 minutes!)


Issue 2: offensive playcalling : simplify the passing plays (it's getting too cute-sy)

Pure and simple: Getting way way WAY too cutesey with everything.

In web design land, my saying is "Just because you can make cute blinking text, does not mean you should put it in a web page".

Why are we so cutesy with the ball?

Simplify and impose the athleticism and will.

I don't recall any of these plays from last year. Maybe screen to Marshawn, possibly to Harvin, what happened to the variety of crosses, mid throws, and deep throws to a variety of receivers?

(Dallas did this very well!!)


issue 3: get the defense some more rest

While some may point to lack of depth on the defense, they overall did not do poorly. It could have been better, but it wasn't bad. The second half they did quite well until the last five minutes or so.

To me, it's a matter of keeping them fresh and rested too.

This is contingent on keeping the offense on the field.

(Dallas did this very well!!)



issue 4: depth

This one I'm worried about because of the O-line and the D-secondary. The best way to minimize this is to do the above: simplify your offense to get more catches downfield with the receivers, pound the ball rushing, and give your D some rest

(Dallas did this very well!!)

issue 5: killer instinct

Right now it looks like the Seahawks aren't hungry enough and don't have that killer instinct, something I was worried about all offseason. Where's the fighting for the ball and for the catch? Tangibly, there are WAY too many dropped passes that should be caught.

Then again, elite receivers can do that right out of the block. Our receivers: I say you can't just give them a really challenging catch right out of the block. Get them warmed up with some easier throws, mid-yardage, before going right to the challenging deep throw. And then they gain their confidence and then fight for that catch.

And the defense lack of turnovers: again to me, lack of killer instinct.

Got to go make your own plays

(Dallas did this very well!!)
===


I list this in order of importance: and so most of the blame for me is offensive playcalling.

And no matter what I hear from talk show analysts or whatever about getting different guys in on the offense, to me it doesn't matter what player is involved, with horrid playcalling it won't work.

Like Richard Sherman had stated before the Redskins game, they don't prepare for a certain player (in reference to Kirk Cousins), they prepare for schemes. You play offensive schemes and coaches first and then the players fit that scheme

The Seahawks offensive scheme.... sucks

How to fix it:

So ...

* you fix the offensive playcalling to pound the ball more
* that should open up the receivers more
* do simple pass plays, nothing too complicated and get the ball downfield in a variety of ways - focusing more on imposing our will than getting too "cute-sy". .
* this should help keep the defense fresh, esp. with the lack of depth on the D-secondary.

As far as killer instinct, yeah... you got to come out with that first. Hopefully a humiliating defeat at home will do the trick


Oh.. not to take away from the Cowboys: Seriously, the Dallas offense and defense ... kicked our butts. No question

 

[truehawksfan]

Wow. That all I can say.

Calling out Sherm. Really. O K.

Remember last year's 13 win reason? Remember when a Rams no name RB ran over the Hawks? Or what about the Niners game at The Stick, when Gore ripped a long gainer? Or how did the team play against the Texans? What about the Tampa game? Or the opener against Carolina?

The team had issues on the Oline last yeat. Remember when Breno got hurt and how the rook struggled? Or when McQuistan played LT when Okung got hurt?

Like players, true fans fight the urge to play the blame game.

This team will play against adversity.

To call the season over at this point is pathetic.

This is embarrassing.

 

[ceej22]

Uh.. what? Dez had two catches against Sherman.. one of them was an amazing grab.

I think it was 3 in basically a quarter and a half.

I would guess that at least 80% of the passes targeting Sherman were caught in this game. For a fairly gaudy average too. When Romo went to Bryant, it seemed to be caught every time, even when Sherman was on him.

I don't think Sherman is terrible, but in 2014 he's no longer the nigh-unbeatable force he was from 2011 to 2013.

I don't want to sound like a homer coming to defense, but from my memory Sherm wasn't targeted that much. Maybe a handful of times?

Dez on the other hand I vividly remember him not doing THAT well, still good though obviously. It's also reflected in his stats, 4 catch for 63 yards on what's reportedly 10 targets.

Looking at the stats 4 passes got caught on Sherman and 1 PI call. 6 targets to Bryant with Sherman on him 2 caught and 1 PI. 2 of the passes caught were to Murray in the flat. The first one went for 4 yards and the other for 0. Sherman was also tackling really well in the open field. I have not heard one person in the media talk bad about his game Sunday. Kearly is off base here.

 

[Donk70]

Here is what I took rom the game. Mind you, I had limited viewing because I only have Redzone.

* I didn't see any receiver get separation from a defender.

* We seem to use Percy on swing outs, screens, and sweeps. Rarely do I see him used on a go route or a post. they should use him to stretch the field.

* The Oline is a mess. Granted they are patch work currently, but the Oline wasn't good last year and they're worse this year. Russ seemed to constantly have defenders in his face which caused him to rush throws.

* We're terrible on defense when it comes to 3rd down. Why? This wasn't the 1st game when we couldn't get the Offense of the field.

I have no idea what can fix what I mentioned above, nor do I pretend to be a football guru. This being said, I'm ok with the Hawks not winning another SB this season. It's not like I expect a championship every year. It would be nice, but each team we play are going to bring their A game. We need to step it up.

 

[Anthony!]

Here is what I took rom the game. Mind you, I had limited viewing because I only have Redzone.

* I didn't see any receiver get separation from a defender.

* We seem to use Percy on swing outs, screens, and sweeps. Rarely do I see him used on a go route or a post. they should use him to stretch the field.

* The Oline is a mess. Granted they are patch work currently, but the Oline wasn't good last year and they're worse this year. Russ seemed to constantly have defenders in his face which caused him to rush throws.

* We're terrible on defense when it comes to 3rd down. Why? This wasn't the 1st game when we couldn't get the Offense of the field.

I have no idea what can fix what I mentioned above, nor do I pretend to be a football guru. This being said, I'm ok with the Hawks not winning another SB this season. It's not like I expect a championship every year. It would be nice, but each team we play are going to bring their A game. We need to step it up.

Some great points and her is something to think about,

RW has more often than not brought us back and produced some magic to help us win and game like this pas Sunday are few and far between like with any Elite QB. However somethings we tend to forget is he can only do it so long and he is doing it behind one of the worst pass blocking o-lines in the NFL and without a go to WR or anyone even close to a #1, with at best questionable play calling. lets look at a few other QBs

Luck - 6th pass blocking o-line and has TY Hilton, Wyane, Nicks to throw to
P Manning- 4th pass blocking o-line and he has Thomas, Welker, Sanders
Brady 19th ranked pass blocking o-line (ours is now ranked 28th) and he has Gronk, Edelman
Rodger o-line ranked 19th in pass blocking and has Nelson, Cobb to throw to
Brees o-line ranked 5th and he has Graham, cooks, Colson,
Ryan 7th pass blocking o-line and he has Hester, Jones, White, Smith
Rivers 9th o-line, and he has gates, Flyod, Royal, Allen

I think I made my point compared to all of them RW has nothing but until this past Sunday had made lemonade out of lemons. Someone has to step up on this offense besides RW week in and week out, and that would be needed even if we ran the ball more. I mean 8 drops in the last 2 games? Not saying Rw did not play bad, he did, but he got no help from anyone on offense, and unlike other Elite QBs he has not go to guy, like Romo has Dez.

 

[truehawksfan]

Let me clarify my point about the 2013 games against the Texans, Tampa, Carolina, and Niners. We have seen what happened against the Dallas team last year.

People rip the FO for letting Clemons and Bryant go. And while I miss those players, they were a part of the 2013 defense that allowed the Rams no name RB run over them. They were on the field when Gore ripped the team for the game deciding long run. They were on the team when they spotted Tampa 17 first half pts.

The team has quality DLineman and it's up to the DLine coach and DCoordinator to put these guys in position to be successful. 'Bane, McDaniel, and Kevin Williams are quality DTs.

Michael Bennett had 9 sacks at Tampa and Cliff Avril had 9 at Detroit and they didn't have the luxury of rotating like the Hawks did last year. So coaches, find ways to create mismatches.

And, was Kearse open when he scored the game winning TD against Carolina? Or what about TDs against ATL, Tampa, etc. They are never wide open. It is what it is.

The one thing I will agree is the way they are using Percy Harvin. He is a quality WR. He's a good route runner with exceptional speed. Teams will focus on him, so he will drag 2 defenders where ever he goes. I'm not saying Kearse and Baldwin will be wide open, but I'll take my chances when Kearse can high point the ball against smaller DBs and Baldwin using his route running skills to get slight separation against the opposing teams 3rd CB.

And one last thing. The game was very close, so feed the Beast, so don't be a knucklehead and run the ball more.

 

[bjornanderson21]

re Browner and Tate. Browner's time was up here. Two straight years with suspensions would not allow him to be re-signed. Tate was destined to leave the day of the Harvin trade.

Thats the problem.

Tate, a newly-productive wr for us WAS destined to leave as soon as we paid through the nose for a player who had no proven himself on the hawks.

Tate would be much better for us than Harvin is, but the Hawks had made their choice.

I am surprised people haven't come around to the fact that trading for Harvin was a mistake.

If Harvin was healthy last year we never would have made it to the super bowl with a finesse gimmick offense.

We were actually better off with him on the bench.....

 

[truehawksfan]

BJORN-
You've got to joking comparing Tate to Harvin right?

I don't like to use stats to prove a point, but it's so one sided, Tate should not be mentioned when comparing him to Harvin.

In 2012, Harvin had 62 rec. in NINE games. Tate's career best is 64 rec in 16 games. Ok, ok....Farve was the QB right? Nope. It was....Christian Ponder. Christian Ponder! Ok, ok MINN was a pass first gimmicky offense. Nope, heard of a RB named Adrian Peterson?

Ok, ok 2012 was a fluke right? Nope, Harvin had 87 rec in 2011. His QB? Ponder (11 GMS) and a washed out Donovan McNabb.

While Harvin ran some bubble screens, they never ran fly sweeps. And Harvin rushed the ball 52 times in 2011, Peterson and Toby Gerhard rushed the ball over 300 times. No gimmicks here.

So, coaches -- BEVELL -- stop with the trickeration because Harvin didn't catch the majority of passes on bubble screens. He's a quality WR so get him out there on traditional routes, he's a mismatch that will demand doubles. And feed the Beast!

 

[bjornanderson21]

BJORN-
You've got to joking comparing Tate to Harvin right?

I don't like to use stats to prove a point, but it's so one sided, Tate should not be mentioned when comparing him to Harvin.

In 2012, Harvin had 62 rec. in NINE games. Tate's career best is 64 rec in 16 games. Ok, ok....Farve was the QB right? Nope. It was....Christian Ponder. Christian Ponder! Ok, ok MINN was a pass first gimmicky offense. Nope, heard of a RB named Adrian Peterson?

Ok, ok 2012 was a fluke right? Nope, Harvin had 87 rec in 2011. His QB? Ponder (11 GMS) and a washed out Donovan McNabb.

While Harvin ran some bubble screens, they never ran fly sweeps. And Harvin rushed the ball 52 times in 2011, Peterson and Toby Gerhard rushed the ball over 300 times. No gimmicks here.

So, coaches -- BEVELL -- stop with the trickeration because Harvin didn't catch the majority of passes on bubble screens. He's a quality WR so get him out there on traditional routes, he's a mismatch that will demand doubles. And feed the Beast!

His average distance from the LOS on those receptions in Minny was 2.5ish yards.

I REPEAT. HIS AVERAGE DISTANCE FROM THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE FOR RECEPTIONS WAS LESS THAN 3 YARDS.

You don't average 2.5ish yards from LOS by going out and running routes.

He had a lot of receptions in Minny, and they were mostly 1 yard passes with YAC. I don't see why you think reception totals change anything. Harvin caught a lot of passes from Ponder....near the line of scrimmage. Also, why does it matter WHO was throwing 1 yard passes? 1 yard passes has always been Harvin's game. It was in minny and it is in seattle.

You are fooling yourself if you think Harvin was used as a traditional WR in minny.

He was a gimmick in minny, and he is an unsuccessful gimmick in seattle.

 

[Donk70]

BJORN-
You've got to joking comparing Tate to Harvin right?

I don't like to use stats to prove a point, but it's so one sided, Tate should not be mentioned when comparing him to Harvin.

In 2012, Harvin had 62 rec. in NINE games. Tate's career best is 64 rec in 16 games. Ok, ok....Farve was the QB right? Nope. It was....Christian Ponder. Christian Ponder! Ok, ok MINN was a pass first gimmicky offense. Nope, heard of a RB named Adrian Peterson?

Ok, ok 2012 was a fluke right? Nope, Harvin had 87 rec in 2011. His QB? Ponder (11 GMS) and a washed out Donovan McNabb.

While Harvin ran some bubble screens, they never ran fly sweeps. And Harvin rushed the ball 52 times in 2011, Peterson and Toby Gerhard rushed the ball over 300 times. No gimmicks here.

So, coaches -- BEVELL -- stop with the trickeration because Harvin didn't catch the majority of passes on bubble screens. He's a quality WR so get him out there on traditional routes, he's a mismatch that will demand doubles. And feed the Beast!

I'm starting to think that they are afraid to use Harvin traditionally because they don't want to get him hurt.. In the music circles I run with, there are two types of guitars: one that's been gigged and a case queen. The one thats been gigged usually has dents, dings, and is your old stand by; a workhorse. A case queen usually has a high monetary value and is never gigged because of the damage that it could accrue. But boy, does it sure look pretty!

Right now they're using Harvin like a case queen. They're afraid to end him out because he's fragile and don't wanna ding him.

 

[rcaido]

This is the story of Seattle fans, they are the most passionate when they are winning but as soon as they lose a step, they are ready to call it a season. You guys are pathetic!

That said, it was a terrible loss to the Cowgirls. Its like the defense knew exactly what we were going to do in every play. Wilson had his worse game. O-line couldn't protect. WR couldn't catch. Our defense couldn't tackle. Our coaches couldn't coach. It was like we were all out of sync.

The problem is the injuries, if we have everyone healthy we are the best team in football. The next 5 teams we play, we should be able to beat. By then hopefully we get Miller back, i think he is the most important player out right now.

 

[Bryce84]

His average distance from the LOS on those receptions in Minny was 2.5ish yards.

I REPEAT. HIS AVERAGE DISTANCE FROM THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE FOR RECEPTIONS WAS LESS THAN 3 YARDS.

You don't average 2.5ish yards from LOS by going out and running routes.

He had a lot of receptions in Minny, and they were mostly 1 yard passes with YAC. I don't see why you think reception totals change anything. Harvin caught a lot of passes from Ponder....near the line of scrimmage. Also, why does it matter WHO was throwing 1 yard passes? 1 yard passes has always been Harvin's game. It was in minny and it is in seattle.

You are fooling yourself if you think Harvin was used as a traditional WR in minny.

He was a gimmick in minny, and he is an unsuccessful gimmick in seattle.

I'm sorry, but this average distance from the LoS stat of 2.5 yards has to be completely made up. Lets look at his stats further shall we?

2009: 13.2 yards per catch, 5.3 yards after catch in 15 games. Difference: 7.9
2010: 12.1 yards per catch, 6.5 yards after catch in 14 games. Difference: 5.6
2011: 11.1 yards per catch, 6.5 yards after catch in 16 games. Difference: 4.6
2012: 10.9 yards per catch, 8.9 yards after catch in 9 games. Difference: 2.0
2014: 6.0 yards per catch, 5.0 yards after catch in 5 games (so far). Difference: 1.0

As you can see, there is ONE year (prior to Seattle) that even comes close to mathematically making sense for this 2.5 yard number you've brought out of thin air. Ironically, it was the same season that Percy was a strong MVP candidate before he got hurt. What is really interesting about these numbers is that the years when Percy caught the ball furthest from the line of scrimmage, were his two seasons with Bevell as his offensive coordinator (2009 and 2010). Bill Musgrave took over from there and put even more emphasis on his work near the line of scrimmage. Bevell gets him again and seems to have wanted to take Musgrave's usage of Harvin to the extreme having him behind or near the line of scrimmage almost exclusively.

All these rumblings about Harvin never being a down the field option are absolutely baseless, formed by misconceptions largely because of how we've used him. Anyone that caught Vikings games during his years there can tell you their offense and utilization of him did not look anything like how we're trying to deploy him. He came into the league very much a hybrid WR/RB and you don't think someone as driven as Harvin has the capacity to expand his game 6 seasons into his career? This organization doesn't bring in players that aren't hard working and driven.

It really comes down to the fact that we've been misusing Harvin and instead of the him being a change-up with these gimmick plays, Bevell (or maybe it's Pete emphasizing what he wants in the offense to Bevell) has tried to make it a focal point which as we've seen is clearly easily defensible and identifiable when we're going to run them. Perhaps it is as some people have said, Seattle's way of trying to preserve Percy with giving him the ball where he's more capable of defending himself from hits, which is understandable to an extent. It is not something we should mold our offense around though, which is seemingly what they have tried to do up to this point.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

This is the story of Seattle fans, they are the most passionate when they are winning but as soon as they lose a step, they are ready to call it a season. You guys are pathetic!...........

Thank you for letting us know we suck. Here I thought I was a good fan of the team seeing as how I've been through thick and thin the last 38+ seasons. Guess I'll go find another team to root for. :sarcasm_off:

 

[truehawksfan]

Bryce-
Thanks for providing historical numbers that truly show Harvin's real avg. yds per catch.

Bjorn-
Please take your half baked stats with you. I get it. You love Tate and hate Harvin.

But please look at Pro Football Reference or other sites that pull real historical stats, not one you pull from....wherever... to make your false point.