Russell Okung, extend or play it out?

[cacksman]

It all depends on the money. If you can sign him for slightly below market value, then I would absolutely do it.
Would take a miracle to upgrade over Okung in the draft, and you aren't going to sign a cheaper free agent that would be better. If he can stay healthy, he's probably a top 5 LT or close to it.

It can't hurt to throw an offer out there and see what's what. If he's asking for too much, you don't extend him this offseason.

 

[MysterMatt]

I'd be okay with an extension, but only after the offseason has completely played out. I wouldn't want to see him extended until they know for sure that they can fit him in after signing more important deals for Wilson, Wagner, and possibly Suh.

Exactly. Okung is tough as hell, despite the injuries, and so long as the extension is sensible and we draft quality depth and develop guys like Gilliam and Bailey, I'm cool with it.

 

[olyfan63]

Meh, he's missed something like 36% of the regular season snaps due to injury and takes a holding or false start penalty every game. He's bearing down on 30 and has a chronic foot or ankle problem. I'd let him play it out and renew only on a cap friendly basis or he can move along.

Sounds cold but he's been actually overpaid for his service to the team given the injury history and the level of his play in all but his 2nd season. Not renewing him is business decision for the team and so is renewing him on terms favourable to the team.

Crap, I just HATE it when people make solid cases with appropriate stats and actual logic!!

Except, FATAL FLAW, he is NOT really bearing down on 30; he's 27, turns 28 in October. In theory, he should be in his physical prime for another 3-4 years. However, you could still be right, in that the toll the NFL has taken on his body could make him older than his years. Then again, parts of his body have 36% less wear, as you pointed out.

Certainly he's been overpaid, relative to actual time on the field.

I'd like to think the FO knows the precise state of Okung's health from the excellent team doctors. Without that information, we're all just a bunch of know-nothings on a message board, speculating based on "insufficient data". In PC/JS I trust on this one... Personally, I hope his body is reasonably sound and the team re-ups him.

And to those who crap all over Okung for his false starts, holds, etc. -- nearly every one of those this season came while Okung was playing through injury, way less than 100%, and toughing it out just to be on the field. Do you not see that? When Okung was healthy, nearly all the false starts and holds just mysteriously went away.

 

[Marlin Man]

there watching Lynch bust his ass to try to make it into the zone, then tell me how much Okung is worth to you

 

[olyfan63]

there watching Lynch bust his ass to try to make it into the zone, then tell me how much Okung is worth to you

Good point, but wasn't Okung's man at least a couple yards downfield at that point?

 

[Marlin Man]

Marshawn walks in

 

[West TX Hawk]

Marshawn walks in

I completely agree with your point Marlin. After seeing that replay multiple times it's apparent he didn't finish the block and that translates to questionable effort at the most critical juncture of the game. My opinion of him sank considerably.

That being said, at the moment we don't have a viable replacement and he needs to play out the contract and then the FO can re-evaluate the situation.

 

[olyfan63]

Marshawn walks in

I completely agree with your point Marlin. After seeing that replay multiple times it's apparent he didn't finish the block and that translates to questionable effort at the most critical juncture of the game. My opinion of him sank considerably.

That being said, at the moment we don't have a viable replacement and he needs to play out the contract and then the FO can re-evaluate the situation.

Watch this video and tell me what you see. Note that it's out of sequence, playwise in the video, but is the play we're talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf8cQh1 ... lpage#t=48

Whatever, else, I don't see a lack of effort. In fact, it wasn't Okung's guy who stopped Lynch short of a TD, it was Luke Willson's guy, on the outside, who sheds Willson's block. Okung didn't get the best block on the LB, but he had the guy in a bad place, and all #54 Hightower was able to do was reach out with an arm tackle to trip Lynch. Lynch is falling forward, maybe going to stretch out for the goal line, but #55 OLB, Willson's guy, gets Lynch high, while #54 Hightower trips him low. If it's just #54, Lynch probably runs through it and scores.

I don't see a lack of effort from Okung, and the LB he's blocking is a slippery target.

Break it down and tell me what you see after looking at it a few times.

if this play is the criteria to judge, I see nothing here that argues against Okung.

 

[HawKnPeppa]

Marshawn walks in

I completely agree with your point Marlin. After seeing that replay multiple times it's apparent he didn't finish the block and that translates to questionable effort at the most critical juncture of the game. My opinion of him sank considerably.

That being said, at the moment we don't have a viable replacement and he needs to play out the contract and then the FO can re-evaluate the situation.

Watch this video and tell me what you see. Note that it's out of sequence, playwise in the video, but is the play we're talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf8cQh1 ... lpage#t=48

Whatever, else, I don't see a lack of effort. In fact, it wasn't Okung's guy who stopped Lynch short of a TD, it was Luke Willson's guy, on the outside, who sheds Willson's block. Okung didn't get the best block on the LB, but he had the guy in a bad place, and all #54 Hightower was able to do was reach out with an arm tackle to trip Lynch. Lynch is falling forward, maybe going to stretch out for the goal line, but #55 OLB, Willson's guy, gets Lynch high, while #54 Hightower trips him low. If it's just #54, Lynch probably runs through it and scores.

I don't see a lack of effort from Okung, and the LB he's blocking is a slippery target.

Break it down and tell me what you see after looking at it a few times.

if this play is the criteria to judge, I see nothing here that argues against Okung.

When you want to downplay somebody's value, you have to focus on one play, and false starts while he's gutting it out with injuries. Haterz 'play to win the game'....their game

 

[West TX Hawk]

Marshawn walks in

I completely agree with your point Marlin. After seeing that replay multiple times it's apparent he didn't finish the block and that translates to questionable effort at the most critical juncture of the game. My opinion of him sank considerably.

That being said, at the moment we don't have a viable replacement and he needs to play out the contract and then the FO can re-evaluate the situation.

Watch this video and tell me what you see. Note that it's out of sequence, playwise in the video, but is the play we're talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf8cQh1 ... lpage#t=48

Whatever, else, I don't see a lack of effort. In fact, it wasn't Okung's guy who stopped Lynch short of a TD, it was Luke Willson's guy, on the outside, who sheds Willson's block. Okung didn't get the best block on the LB, but he had the guy in a bad place, and all #54 Hightower was able to do was reach out with an arm tackle to trip Lynch. Lynch is falling forward, maybe going to stretch out for the goal line, but #55 OLB, Willson's guy, gets Lynch high, while #54 Hightower trips him low. If it's just #54, Lynch probably runs through it and scores.

I don't see a lack of effort from Okung, and the LB he's blocking is a slippery target.

Break it down and tell me what you see after looking at it a few times.

if this play is the criteria to judge, I see nothing here that argues against Okung.

When you want to downplay somebody's value, you have to focus on one play, and false starts while he's gutting it out with injuries. Haterz 'play to win the game'....their game

How does an injured toe correlate to an excuse for false starts?

When fully healthy he has been effective, but when the OP's question is about extending him or essentially wait and see, you have to be fully critical of his overall game. You know PC and JS are. To me I question if he truly has the intangibles and discipline that so many of our Hawks do. When you see our LOB laying it all on the line with significant injuries and not making mental errors or seeing Beast run every carry like it's truly his last, do you see that same kind of drive and intensity by Okung on a consistent basis that warrants him being immediately rewarded as part of our "core"?

I for the record am not an Okung "hater" and 1 year from now he may still be our best option for the near future. I understand the arguments of a lower cap hit if he were extended now, etc but I think there's enough questions out there that we need to let him play it out his current deal.

With regards to the 1st and goal play, I still think he didn't fully finish that block and if he had it may have created just enough of a hole for Lynch to get in. Regardless, the question remains, did you see enough of the total effort and relentless play of him this year that is similar to that of all the players that we have extended these past couple years?

 

[themunn]

Trying to find a replacement is easier said than done. Have a look at probably the top half of the league's offensive tackles, where they were drafted, and where they rank in terms of 2015 salary to be paid.

Joe Thomas - 3rd (7th)
Trent Williams - 4th (1st)
Jason Peters - Undrafted (8th)
Joe Staley - 28th (2nd)
Ryan Clady - 12th (4th)
Tyron Smith - 9th (3rd)
Nate Solder - 17th (10th-T)
Eugene Monroe - 8th (18th)
Jake Long - 1st (5th)
Cordy Glenn - 41st (46th - still on 2012 rookie deal)
Andrew Whitworth - 55th (21st)
Duane Brown - 26th (13th)
Brandon Albert - 15th (6th)
Anthony Constanzo - 22nd (10th-T)
Russell Okung - 6th (22nd)

i.e. basically every player bar 3 was picked ahead of where we will be picking this year, and all of them bar 1 picked before our second round pick, so if we want to get a replacement for Okung, in reality we need to be thinking about not only using our 1st round pick on one, but probably trading up to use it. Is that the best use of our draft capital?

On top of that, every player bar the one on his rookie deal will be getting paid more than him this year. If we can extend his current deal while getting an average that's lower than his rookie deal was (based on his injury history as leverage) then we will be getting a very good deal indeed.

 

[jeremiah]

Meh, he's missed something like 36% of the regular season snaps due to injury and takes a holding or false start penalty every game. He's bearing down on 30 and has a chronic foot or ankle problem. I'd let him play it out and renew only on a cap friendly basis or he can move along.

Sounds cold but he's been actually overpaid for his service to the team given the injury history and the level of his play in all but his 2nd season. Not renewing him is business decision for the team and so is renewing him on terms favourable to the team.

I could not agree more.

 

[LTH]

Regardless if they extend his contract or not IMO they need to draft LT due to the fact he can not stay healthy and in case something happens and they can not extend him, cannot sign him, or can not afford him...

LTH

 

[CANHawk]

I say extend him. Who do you realistically replace him with? Starting caliber LTs are as hard to find as starting QB's. If you have one, you don't let him go for nothing!

That being said, hopefully they can work something out with a small guarantee and bonuses for staying healthy/games played, etc.

 

[Wartooth]

Paul Allen is the richest owner in the NFL, and a Tech guy...
Why haven't they cloned a half a dozen Walt's yet?!

 

[Seahawkwalt1967]

Play out.. Prove he can stay healthy first

 

[Tical21]

It depends on the relationship. If they think making him play out the last year of the contract is really going to piss him off to the point where it would make him determined to test the market, you try to sign him now for as good of a deal as you can. Also, if he has an awesome year this coming year, his price could go up considerably. Do they have the money to pay him? Have they already decided they aren't going to pay him, thus the Wright/Avril contracts? I'd personally extend him, I think he is worth gambling on, but try to work an "out" into the deal if he'll go for it.

 

[LTH]

It depends on the relationship. If they think making him play out the last year of the contract is really going to piss him off to the point where it would make him determined to test the market, you try to sign him now for as good of a deal as you can. Also, if he has an awesome year this coming year, his price could go up considerably. Do they have the money to pay him? Have they already decided they aren't going to pay him, thus the Wright/Avril contracts? I'd personally extend him, I think he is worth gambling on, but try to work an "out" into the deal if he'll go for it.

I agree... But I think as of now, unless they have a good understanding of whats going to happen with the other contracts Like; wilson, Lynch , Maxwell, they dont have enough information to know how much money will have to offer him ... I imagine there is a file with a bunch of models in it concerning RO... Im not a cap guy and thats just my assumption...

Any thoughts?

LTH

 

[kf3339]

I'd be okay with an extension, but only after the offseason has completely played out. I wouldn't want to see him extended until they know for sure that they can fit him in after signing more important deals for Wilson, Wagner, and possibly Suh.

This is pretty much how I see it as well. No need to do anything right now. He is under contract and we can easily work on this near the start of the regular season, or even in-season. For that matter we can just wait and see what happens his last full year. No need to rush it.

 

[olyfan63]

How does an injured toe correlate to an excuse for false starts?

If you can't see this, can't understand it, there's no amount of explaining I or anyone can do to make you see it.

Also, at the start of the season, his most significant injury, IIRC, was an arm/shoulder injury, not the turf toe or whatever the toe injury was.

From Okung's point of view, If you're less than 100%, but still going up against the other team's best pass rusher, the Robert Quinn's of the NFL, you're looking for every edge, pushing every limit to get an edge. One of those edges is the snap count, and trying to time it precisely, to get back into a position that dictates to the rusher what he can and can't be successful with. A rusher who gets into your body quickly might succeed with a quick inside rip move (against your injured arm side), for example, especially if he can do it at a time when you don't yet have a firm base under you. A healthy Okung doesn't have to guess, because he has the quickness, mobility, and strength to play it straight up, and still get where he needs to be.

When I watched Okung and his false starts during that stretch of the season, it was so BLOODY OBVIOUS to me that Okung was trying to compensate for an injury (various ones at different times during the season). He was doing things he doesn't normally do, he was moving in awkward ways he doesn't normally move, clearly favoring and trying to compensate for assorted injuries, and occasional false starts were one of the results as well.

If you can't see it when you go back and look at a few of these plays, and then compare that by watch him during times he was healthy, there's no amount of explaining anyone can do that will help.