Underrated play by Geno

[pittpnthrs]

No, my comment wasn't. It's a figure of speech meant to evoke a shared sense of resignation with someone, Mael, who is running into the same wall I've run into for two seasons—trying to have a fair conversation about Geno with people who seemingly have no interest.

I understand that, but I don't think you quite understand where i'm coming from. When I say winning a playoff game would alleviate a lot of criticism, i'm talking about mindset. I need to see Geno succeed on the bigger stage. We all know what he is capable of through the stats and so forth. I want to see the immeasurables where I believe he comes up short, but admittedly there is barely a sample size. If Geno could succeed and over come what I believe to be his biggest weakness (mental toughness), I would have to take a step back and say,,,,damn, they were right. He's better than I gave him credit for.

 

[knownone]

I understand that, but I don't think you quite understand where i'm coming from. When I say winning a playoff game would alleviate a lot of criticism, i'm talking about mindset. I need to see Geno succeed on the bigger stage. We all know what he is capable of through the stats and so forth. I want to see the immeasurables where I believe he comes up short, but admittedly there is barely a sample size. If Geno could succeed and over come what I believe to be his biggest weakness (mental toughness), I would have to take a step back and say,,,,damn, they were right. He's better than I gave him credit for.

I understand. My point is that the statement was intended for one person and was not meant to be a general commentary on what Geno would need to do to prove people wrong.

Obviously, there are things he could do to change the perception surrounding him. Right. He could win an MVP, a Super Bowl, or, as you've suggested, a playoff game. That's all fine and relevant in the abstract. But my comment toward Mael wasn't meant to address what Geno needed to do. It was meant to sympathize with someone using the currently available evidence to argue in favor of Geno and is running into the proverbial brick wall.

So, while I respect your personal opinion on Geno, I don't think my initial comment was wrong because it was never meant to be taken literally.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Russ had a top 10 running game post LOB with the exeption of the year we lost our entire baackfield. And before argument is made that he contributed to that ranking, our RBS consistently put up top 10 to top 5 stats in YPC without him AND post LOB, there were very very few designed running plays for the QB to pad those numbers. So our average on rushing plays was very very good. That is not the case with Geno and with the exception of the firt 7 or 8 games of last year, our rushing attack has been one of our biggest liabilities.


And Russ has shown that bad blocking follows him wherever he goes.

It's always Wilson's fault. I almost forgot how this place works. Let's ignore the year that he attributed to every TD that season except for maybe one because he was so flawed and had and needed other areas to carry him. Did you ever take into consideration that the run game might have been as successful as it was because the opposing defenses had to respect Wilson too?

 

[knownone]

I’m still confused how 18 touchdowns is near elite. I know you hate that metric but regardless when looking at everything in totality and not cherry picking a couple that fit the narrative he’s not an elite QB he’s just not. He has some areas he shines in but most guys in the 12-20 range do too, that’s why they’re not in the 20-30 range

Is he underrated? Sure I think that’s a decent argument and a conversation to be had but I could say the same thing. Those claiming he’s elite will not move off of that no matter what Geno does, it is what it is.

What was cherry-picked? By all means, show me other aggregated metrics for QB performance where Geno is not in that near-elite range. There are two that I can think of: EPA/Play and QB-Rating. QB-rating is a mostly useless evaluation tool, and EPA/Play is context-dependent, so I used total EPA. What did I leave out?

And let's be clear, you're using a single measurement, total TD passes, that we know is highly volatile and asking how that's near elite. Are you suggesting that total TD passes are a more valid evaluation tool than QBR, PFF, Success Rate, Total EPA, and Passing EPA, or do you have any other metrics I should consider?

 

[Ozzy]

What was cherry-picked? By all means, show me other aggregated metrics for QB performance where Geno is not in that near-elite range. There are two that I can think of: EPA/Play and QB-Rating. QB-rating is a mostly useless evaluation tool, and EPA/Play is context-dependent, so I used total EPA. What did I leave out?

And let's be clear, you're using a single measurement, total TD passes, that we know is highly volatile and asking how that's near elite. Are you suggesting that total TD passes are a more valid evaluation tool than QBR, PFF, Success Rate, Total EPA, and Passing EPA, or do you have any other metrics I should consider?

I’ve never said just touchdown passes as the only measurement but how many elite guys over the past 10-20 years throw 18 touchdowns on a yearly basis and we call them elite? Mahomes? Allen? Rodgers? Wilson? Brady? Manning? Everyone mocks Chicago because they’ve never had a guy throw for 30. I’d argue total touchdowns is a better metric than you just outright dismissing it.

You’re proving my point. I said earlier that people claim Geno is elite and I was told no one does and that’s just exaggerating the situation yet it’s obvious by your response you do think he’s elite.

Geno is a good quarterback. He’s not elite and outside of a small percentage of Seahawks fans no one else thinks he’s elite either. He’s 12-20 range and that’s ok

 

[Ozzy]

It's always Wilson's fault. I almost forgot how this place works. Let's ignore the year that he attributed to every TD that season except for maybe one because he was so flawed and had and needed other areas to carry him. Did you ever take into consideration that the run game might have been as successful as it was because the opposing defenses had to respect Wilson too?

Right? The same people screaming for how great Geno is because he’s overcoming a bad running game or line never mention that Russ had to play with that too and strangely those were all his fault lol.

Keasely I listened to the KJ segment and I have to be honest. No where did anyone mention Geno as anything you said they did. Was it in another segment? In fact KJ blamed Geno for the third down failures and partially for the running game not doing better because we need more from Geno on third down. He didn’t say it’s all Geno’s fault either. They said Geno played well this werk(which he did!) but not a general statement of Geno being elite

 

[knownone]

I’ve never said just touchdown passes as the only measurement but how many elite guys over the past 10-20 years throw 18 touchdowns on a yearly basis and we call them elite? Mahomes? Allen? Rodgers? Wilson? Brady? Manning? Everyone mocks Chicago because they’ve never had a guy throw for 30. I’d argue total touchdowns is a better metric than you just outright dismissing it.

You’re proving my point. I said earlier that people claim Geno is elite and I was told no one does and that’s just exaggerating the situation yet it’s obvious by your response you do think he’s elite.

Geno is a good quarterback. He’s not elite and outside of a small percentage of Seahawks fans no one else thinks he’s elite either. He’s 12-20 range and that’s ok

Uh... So, you don't have any other metrics? That's fine.

Your argument is a strawman with a veiled ad hominem and a blatant misrepresentation of my position that doesn't address my previous comment. That's not worth responding to.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Mael, I hear what your preaching. I'm not going to spurn anybody in my response and this is coming from the heart. It's no mystery that you think more of Geno than I do, but i'll be the first to admit that Geno is rarely ever the cause of the losses.

The point I want to make is that almost all the things being said about Geno pertained to Russ too, but people crucified him. Maybe he was held to a higher standard, I don't know. Bottom line is read your last statement a couple times. That's how I felt for years when Wilson was here. Is it truly the QB's thats the issue?

Maybe it's simply a stylistic debate, but for Russell, my frustration was that his playstyle didn't allow for growth.

Russell relied on what was truly supreme talent coming into the NFL game. His wheels, his ability to make multi-million dollar defenders look like simpletons in the backfield, his friggin' deep ball.

I just got frustrated with him and his play style when it didn't allow the offense to grow much further. I felt like we got all we could out of him, but compounding that with increasing demands from his end is what pushed me into the camp of disliking him as a player. (This happened in 2020, for me, once the Let Russ Cook furor died down and we couldn't go back to the run-heavy success of 2018/2019 without severely provoking him).

Young Russ is still my favorite QB ever. He was inevitable.

 

[Weadoption]

don’t recall the year, just recall Russ beating Green Bay in a last play miracle and lots of sad sad Packers fans.
made me cry was so beautiful

 

[Ozzy]

Uh... So, you don't have any other metrics? That's fine.

Your argument is a strawman with a veiled ad hominem and a blatant misrepresentation of my position that doesn't address my previous comment. That's not worth responding to.

I do we’ve just been over this a million times. Looking at all the metrics doesn’t put Geno in the elite category and my argument is no different than what you say about those who disagree which is hypocritical. So you’re right, it’s not worth responding to.

 

[Ozzy]

No, my comment wasn't. It's a figure of speech meant to evoke a shared sense of resignation with someone, Mael, who is running into the same wall I've run into for two seasons—trying to have a fair conversation about Geno with people who seemingly have no interest.

This is ridiculous. You are essentially saying anyone who disagrees with you that Geno is elite which is your implied point over and over is unreasonable by default. And your last comment of “simply have no interest” is goofy. If you’re having so many problems in this debate maybe it’s you and not that everyone else is just stupid, incapable or “have no interest” is it possible that it’s you who is unreasonable or snarky at times?

Here is the take that has labeled me and the vast majority of people incapable, stupid or whatever…..Geno is a good quarterback somewhere in the 12-20 range who flashes higher but also makes critical mistakes and yet every time I or others post it’s a snarky response and then we’re told we’re too stupid or actually not trying to have a reasonable discussion. It’s goofy and it’s getting old.

You think Geno is elite. Many people don’t. Both are ok and we don’t have to attack people who see it differently or resort to sneakiness every time.

 

[keasley45]

He was top 5 for half a season after being in the leage for 10 years. He is now averaging a touchdown a game with a ton of weapons. What happened the second half of last year when he wasn't nearly as good?

Again I think Geno is better than many believe, including myself at times but I seriously doubt Brock puts Geno in the top 5 category as that is ridiculous and literally no one in the country mentions him in that capacity.

I'll just agree to disagree as I don't see him as a top 5 guy. if he was a top 5 guy why did he sign in Seattle for a lesser contract? He could of written his own check if the league saw him as top 5/borderline elite.

I listen to Brock a ton and I have never heard him speak that highly so I'm curious why he changed his tune all of the sudden. Griff who is about as good as anyone at breaking down film is actually supportive of Waldron. But again to be fair I will try to find that episode and listen to it. Brock also calls Wilson elite during his time in Seattle which you have disagreed with in the past so with your reasoning you need to change that opinion

Brock also changed his opinion before Russ left going as far back as 2020 saying he was barely playing even 'good' football, and has been pretty honest about him since then.

As to what happened to Geno last year? I answered that a few times . His 'regression' coincided with the decline in performance from our rookies at tackle (moreso Cross) and an interior line that was abysmal down the stretch. Again. That's not speculation or opinion. Geno played with an o line that ranked between 25 and 32 to end the season last year.

As for Geno' supporting cast after mid season and from the Tampa game on , KW3s yards per game were:

17 week 10
26 week 11
36 week 12
0 week 13
47 week 14


He also posted a 51 yard game in week 8 followed by a 109 yard game and during that span, before the O line's wheels fell off, Geno was posting over 100 ratings pretty consistently.

Excluding the 109 yard game, and thats 108 yards across 6 games, or less than 20 yards per game. With those numbers, Geno was still killing it.

To start the season, our O line was middle of the pack.

By mid season, they were 22nd.

By year end, they were 27th.

How can you couch Geno's performance as regressing when after the halfway point, he was left high and dry by his run game, and by year end, had one of tge worst O line's in the game?

He was top 5 for half a season after being in the leage for 10 years. He is now averaging a touchdown a game with a ton of weapons. What happened the second half of last year when he wasn't nearly as good?

Again I think Geno is better than many believe, including myself at times but I seriously doubt Brock puts Geno in the top 5 category as that is ridiculous and literally no one in the country mentions him in that capacity.

I'll just agree to disagree as I don't see him as a top 5 guy. if he was a top 5 guy why did he sign in Seattle for a lesser contract? He could of written his own check if the league saw him as top 5/borderline elite.

I listen to Brock a ton and I have never heard him speak that highly so I'm curious why he changed his tune all of the sudden. Griff who is about as good as anyone at breaking down film is actually supportive of Waldron. But again to be fair I will try to find that episode and listen to it. Brock also calls Wilson elite during his time in Seattle which you have disagreed with in the past so with your reasoning you need to change that opinion

Why does his being in the league for 10 years have anything to do with anything?

It's what he's doing now that matters. I frankly don't care if he was 0-50 before coming here. If he put up good stats and results, because he put in the work and sonething 'clicked' that's all good by me. Past performance isn't always a predictor of future results. I was fired from my first job in design and 14 years later was the boss of the guy who fired me.

2nd, Genos drop in performance last year coincided with the implosion of our o-line. Theres a reason Blythe isnt with us now. But before the wheels came entirely off, he was literally the only good thing we had. From weeks 8 to 14, with the exception of 1 game, kenneth walker was giving us 20 yards a game.

Weeks 8 to 14, (during Kenneth's down period) Geno's completion percentages were:

67.7
76
69
72
72
58
70

During that span, his td to int ratio was 15 to 5.

So to recap, for the majority of the stretch hes been seen as regressing in, he threw at a better than 67% completion rate, with zero rushing help. Actually, we had the worst rushing attack in the league when geno was posting 67% plus completion and a 3:1 td to in rate.

Over that same stretch, an o-line that started the season ranked middle of the pack was around 22 by mid season and finished the year 27th.

It seems EVERY Geno critic is fixated on a perception that things werent great for the vast majority of the 'stretch' when in fact, with the exception of the last 3 games, he was very very good.

And in the last 3 games , with an O line that was a turnstile, his completion percentage did drop to 63, 62, and 61 respectively and his TD to int rate went to 4 to 3.

But during that 3 game stretch, he faced thrme Rams, Chiefs and Jets, teams that sacked him 9 times. The Jets posted the 3rd best D against the pass last year.

And during that stretch, opposing teams smelled blood in the water with our O line as bad as it was and pressures the qb a season high 24% of the time.

his percentage of bad throws did go up from weeks 11 on, but I don't honestly see how you can divorce that stat from the fact that 23 of his sacks occurred during weeks 16, 12, 13, 10, 17, 11 and 14.

That's half his sacks over 7 games... to close the season?

None of that is to say that Geno didn't take a step back over the last half. His bad throw percentage went up, but that again coincided with a period that saw his 6 games where he saw the most pressure.

So all in all, I get the ( man I wish he could play a bit better sometimes) feeling.

But NONE of his regression is in a vacuum. And it all either saw him STILL performing well when his backfield gave him zero support, or saw him drop in performance when his line entirely folded.

 

[hawkfan68]

Brock also changed his opinion before Russ left going as far back as 2020 saying he was barely playing even 'good' football, and has been pretty honest about him since then.

As to what happened to Geno last year? I answered that a few times . His 'regression' coincided with the decline in performance from our rookies at tackle (moreso Cross) and an interior line that was abysmal down the stretch. Again. That's not speculation or opinion. Geno played with an o line that ranked between 25 and 32 to end the season last year.

As for Geno' supporting cast after mid season and from the Tampa game on , KW3s yards per game were:

17 week 10
26 week 11
36 week 12
0 week 13
47 week 14


He also posted a 51 yard game in week 8 followed by a 109 yard game and during that span, before the O line's wheels fell off, Geno was posting over 100 ratings pretty consistently.

Excluding the 109 yard game, and thats 108 yards across 6 games, or less than 20 yards per game. With those numbers, Geno was still killing it.

To start the season, our O line was middle of the pack.

By mid season, they were 22nd.

By year end, they were 27th.

How can you couch Geno's performance as regressing when after the halfway point, he was left high and dry by his run game, and by year end, had one of tge worst O line's in the game?

Why does his being in the league for 10 years have anything to do with anything?

It's what he's doing now that matters. I frankly don't care if he was 0-50 before coming here. If he put up good stats and results, because he put in the work and sonething 'clicked' that's all good by me. Past performance isn't always a predictor of future results. I was fired from my first job in design and 14 years later was the boss of the guy who fired me.

2nd, Genos drop in performance last year coincided with the implosion of our o-line. Theres a reason Blythe isnt with us now. But before the wheels came entirely off, he was literally the only good thing we had. From weeks 8 to 14, with the exception of 1 game, kenneth walker was giving us 20 yards a game.

Weeks 8 to 14, (during Kenneth's down period) Geno's completion percentages were:

67.7
76
69
72
72
58
70

During that span, his td to int ratio was 15 to 5.

So to recap, for the majority of the stretch hes been seen as regressing in, he threw at a better than 67% completion rate, with zero rushing help. Actually, we had the worst rushing attack in the league when geno was posting 67% plus completion and a 3:1 td to in rate.

Over that same stretch, an o-line that started the season ranked middle of the pack was around 22 by mid season and finished the year 27th.

It seems EVERY Geno critic is fixated on a perception that things werent great for the vast majority of the 'stretch' when in fact, with the exception of the last 3 games, he was very very good.

And in the last 3 games , with an O line that was a turnstile, his completion percentage did drop to 63, 62, and 61 respectively and his TD to int rate went to 4 to 3.

But during that 3 game stretch, he faced thrme Rams, Chiefs and Jets, teams that sacked him 9 times. The Jets posted the 3rd best D against the pass last year.

And during that stretch, opposing teams smelled blood in the water with our O line as bad as it was and pressures the qb a season high 24% of the time.

his percentage of bad throws did go up from weeks 11 on, but I don't honestly see how you can divorce that stat from the fact that 23 of his sacks occurred during weeks 16, 12, 13, 10, 17, 11 and 14.

That's half his sacks over 7 games... to close the season?

None of that is to say that Geno didn't take a step back over the last half. His bad throw percentage went up, but that again coincided with a period that saw his 6 games where he saw the most pressure.

So all in all, I get the ( man I wish he could play a bit better sometimes) feeling.

But NONE of his regression is in a vacuum. And it all either saw him STILL performing well when his backfield gave him zero support, or saw him drop in performance when his line entirely folded.

Brittle Brock was an all-pro at holding the clipboard. But even CBJ was better than him at that so we can't name him a HOF there either.

 

[Dvl Dug]

This is one that I thought looked sloppy live, but on replay here with the all-22 Griff posted, this is pretty damn good. He knows where to go with the ball immediately with huge pressure straight in his face, he is fundamentally adept enough to get the ball off accurately, and he is savvy enough to pause and negotiate enough space and hesitation from the rusher to allow that throw.



Geno's had a down year, but tape wise, I think he's putting a lot of really good stuff out there in a difficult and dysfunctional situation.

I've had my criticisms of Waldron and still do, and I'd still want him fired... but really, I'd mostly want that because I want an OC who can appreciably elevate the offensive line just through coaching prowess alone, which is why I keep plugging Kromer. Dickerson looked good initially, but how much of that was just the scouts and FO hitting big on Lucas and hitting mildly on Cross, ya know?

I maintain that Geno has the talent, the operative skill, the arm, and the poise to be legit top 10. I don't want to pay him big cap in the teams current situation, but honestly? Not the end of the world if we do, because any prospect we'd be in a position to draft is a prospect that I would really, really want to have as a backup for a year to acclimate to the NFL game.

Geno operating well might've been the sole bright spot from this game, aside from K9 running like a man.Look

To be fair, it would be kind of hard for him alone to bridge the gap. He's only had one shot at the postseason here and there really wasn't much he could've done that time around. He didn't play a perfect game, but it felt like he could've played a near perfect game and I still don't think we could've won that one.

The rub is that Geno plays largely structured football. I like that better on the whole compared to the alternative, but he's not one of those Caleb Williams or vintage Russ types. He can win the games, but he isn't gonna do the circus hero act to do it.

I'm happy with his overall performance on a fundamental level and I'm trying to separate it from team performance, because the team performance isn't just bad, it's super inconsistent too. I'd want to see him with a real run game and a less injured line. I can't see a reason that he wouldn't be able to eclipse 2022's performance with a more functional unit around him.

It's frustrating that the organization has failed to seize the opportunities that his unexpected growth and ascendancy have afforded us. All squandered thus far. You don't usually get the gift of a totally random top-10-capable talent at this position.

Geno Smith is not over or underated. He just sucks!

 

[Ozzy]

Brock also changed his opinion before Russ left going as far back as 2020 saying he was barely playing even 'good' football, and has been pretty honest about him since then.

As to what happened to Geno last year? I answered that a few times . His 'regression' coincided with the decline in performance from our rookies at tackle (moreso Cross) and an interior line that was abysmal down the stretch. Again. That's not speculation or opinion. Geno played with an o line that ranked between 25 and 32 to end the season last year.

As for Geno' supporting cast after mid season and from the Tampa game on , KW3s yards per game were:

17 week 10
26 week 11
36 week 12
0 week 13
47 week 14


He also posted a 51 yard game in week 8 followed by a 109 yard game and during that span, before the O line's wheels fell off, Geno was posting over 100 ratings pretty consistently.

Excluding the 109 yard game, and thats 108 yards across 6 games, or less than 20 yards per game. With those numbers, Geno was still killing it.

To start the season, our O line was middle of the pack.

By mid season, they were 22nd.

By year end, they were 27th.

How can you couch Geno's performance as regressing when after the halfway point, he was left high and dry by his run game, and by year end, had one of tge worst O line's in the game?

Why does his being in the league for 10 years have anything to do with anything?

It's what he's doing now that matters. I frankly don't care if he was 0-50 before coming here. If he put up good stats and results, because he put in the work and sonething 'clicked' that's all good by me. Past performance isn't always a predictor of future results. I was fired from my first job in design and 14 years later was the boss of the guy who fired me.

2nd, Genos drop in performance last year coincided with the implosion of our o-line. Theres a reason Blythe isnt with us now. But before the wheels came entirely off, he was literally the only good thing we had. From weeks 8 to 14, with the exception of 1 game, kenneth walker was giving us 20 yards a game.

Weeks 8 to 14, (during Kenneth's down period) Geno's completion percentages were:

67.7
76
69
72
72
58
70

During that span, his td to int ratio was 15 to 5.

So to recap, for the majority of the stretch hes been seen as regressing in, he threw at a better than 67% completion rate, with zero rushing help. Actually, we had the worst rushing attack in the league when geno was posting 67% plus completion and a 3:1 td to in rate.

Over that same stretch, an o-line that started the season ranked middle of the pack was around 22 by mid season and finished the year 27th.

It seems EVERY Geno critic is fixated on a perception that things werent great for the vast majority of the 'stretch' when in fact, with the exception of the last 3 games, he was very very good.

And in the last 3 games , with an O line that was a turnstile, his completion percentage did drop to 63, 62, and 61 respectively and his TD to int rate went to 4 to 3.

But during that 3 game stretch, he faced thrme Rams, Chiefs and Jets, teams that sacked him 9 times. The Jets posted the 3rd best D against the pass last year.

And during that stretch, opposing teams smelled blood in the water with our O line as bad as it was and pressures the qb a season high 24% of the time.

his percentage of bad throws did go up from weeks 11 on, but I don't honestly see how you can divorce that stat from the fact that 23 of his sacks occurred during weeks 16, 12, 13, 10, 17, 11 and 14.

That's half his sacks over 7 games... to close the season?

None of that is to say that Geno didn't take a step back over the last half. His bad throw percentage went up, but that again coincided with a period that saw his 6 games where he saw the most pressure.

So all in all, I get the ( man I wish he could play a bit better sometimes) feeling.

But NONE of his regression is in a vacuum. And it all either saw him STILL performing well when his backfield gave him zero support, or saw him drop in performance when his line entirely folded.

Ok so are you saying he’s elite? Is that what you’re arguing? I don’t agree with many of your points here but it’s exhausting going back and forth with the 3-4 guys who claim Geno is elite all the time. That’s not snark as I’m sure with your guys conviction that Geno is a near top 5 elite quarterback and no one is agreeing it’s exhausting too. Maybe at this point it’s just best to drop it and enjoy the last game of the season and see what happens? If he’s back I’ll be hoping they fix the line issues because Geno is better with a good line and they have a ton of weapons already. If he’s gone then I’ll be excited for whatever is next too,

 

[Ozzy]

I’ve listened to many, many hours of Brock and to claim he didn’t view Russ as anything but elite is flat out wrong/lie. He’s also never called Geno elite either. He did think Russ slipped a little the last couple of years and he does think Geno is more capable than many fans think he is, that part is true but to claim Brock painted a picture of Geno being elite or Russ not being elite isn’t true

 

[Dvl Dug]

Mod edit: deleted please refrain from political discourse here

 

[knownone]

I do we’ve just been over this a million times. Looking at all the metrics doesn’t put Geno in the elite category and my argument is no different than what you say about those who disagree which is hypocritical. So you’re right, it’s not worth responding to.

This is ridiculous. You are essentially saying anyone who disagrees with you that Geno is elite which is your implied point over and over is unreasonable by default. And your last comment of “simply have no interest” is goofy. If you’re having so many problems in this debate maybe it’s you and not that everyone else is just stupid, incapable or “have no interest” is it possible that it’s you who is unreasonable or snarky at times?

Here is the take that has labeled me and the vast majority of people incapable, stupid or whatever…..Geno is a good quarterback somewhere in the 12-20 range who flashes higher but also makes critical mistakes and yet every time I or others post it’s a snarky response and then we’re told we’re too stupid or actually not trying to have a reasonable discussion. It’s goofy and it’s getting old.

You think Geno is elite. Many people don’t. Both are ok and we don’t have to attack people who see it differently or resort to sneakiness every time.

Where did I say Geno was "elite"? I referenced stats that put him in the 14 to 8 range.

If you feel my comments toward you condescending, consider that your entire argument to me is a strawman where you are telling me what I think rather than responding to what I wrote.

 

[Ozzy]

Where did I say Geno was "elite"? I referenced stats that put him in the 14 to 8 range.

If you feel my comments toward you condescending, consider that your entire argument to me is a strawman where you are telling me what I think rather than responding to what I wrote.

It’s exactly what you’ve done to anyone who disagrees. You made the comment “they will never get it” as if anyone who disagrees is too stupid to see it your way. So it’s just me, I couldn’t care less about that it’s turned into how you talk to anyone who disagrees.

I honestly don’t believe you because if you truly thought he was in the 8-14 range you wouldn’t get mad at someone who puts him in the 12-17 range.

 

[Ozzy]

Again if you think he’s in the 8-14 range then who does this someone saying he’s not top 10 cause you to tell people their too stupid to see the right way no matter what evidence is presented?

I’ve said multiple times Geno flashes enough that I can understand why people have him higher than I do. I don’t agree but I’m also not going to imply they’re stupid