Saints request interview with Shane Waldron

[DarkVictory23]

I am not going to apologize for this, but some of you play Ahab to Carroll being Moby Dick. For years posters here were banging the drum that Pete only wants to run run pass. Now we barely run the ball and Carroll is limiting Waldron even though he said repeatedly in press conferences and his radio show that we need to run more. Thar she blows!

It's a bit of always seeing what you want to see, isn't it?

The problems we had with Shane's offense don't need some conspiracy theory about what Pete did to him to explain: Our offensive line was flat bad this year and last year it wasn't good about creating running lanes. Shocker.

Pete wanting us to be able to run the ball effectively isn't some weird thing that 'handcuffs' an OC. You can probably count on one hand the number of head coaches who are ok with an offense being entirely passing oriented and I'm guessing all of those guys are in college.

There were multiple games this year where having any sort of reliable rushing attack would have changed our fortunes and we didn't have that.

I don't think Waldron was terrible at all (we were a good offense last year and a better-than-should-be-expected given our line play offense this year), but if he had been able to come up with SOMETHING that we could reliably use to rush, that with would have probably saved his (and Pete's) job. He was incapable of out-scheming our deficiencies at the LOS.

Is it reasonable to expect a guy to be able to gameplan for an OL that was put together on the fly, down multiple starters at virtually every point of the season? I don't know the answer to that but I'm also not in charge of hiring decisions for any professional football teams...

 

[Mad Dog]

I don't think he was handcuffed though. People tried to say the same thing about Russ. If only he had an offensive minded coach, he can finally cook!

Russ gets an offensive minded coach, and he ends up getting benched.

Pete's You be You approach applied not only to players, but his coaches as well. Pete would intervene when things weren't going well. Sometimes too late, and too little.. His loyalty to coordinators and their personal and professional development was his downfall - not "you better do it my way or else"

I mean, he let Hurtt bring in that Fangio crap, when he should have just stuck to what he knew best.

I think handcuffed might be an overly strong word. I prefer constrained. Most of Pete's OC's were constrained by the risk factor for turnovers. It's all about the ball is a thing with Pete. That meant more play to the edges where tipped passes don't mean interceptions.

There is an old adage, "Don't throw late over the middle." Well at times it seemed the Seahawks didn't want to throw early or late over the middle. And that kills your creativity as an OC. So few digs and drags which play into the strengths of DK and JSN.

 

[hoxrox]

I think handcuffed might be an overly strong word. I prefer constrained. Most of Pete's OC's were constrained by the risk factor for turnovers. It's all about the ball is a thing with Pete. That meant more play to the edges where tipped passes don't mean interceptions.

There is an old adage, "Don't throw late over the middle." Well at times it seemed the Seahawks didn't want to throw early or late over the middle. And that kills your creativity as an OC. So few digs and drags which play into the strengths of DK and JSN.

This preconception is brought up a lot but may need to be updated in light of recent data.

Here are a few pass charts from this season:



This is Drew Lock's pass chart:



This is Geno's pass chart in week 17:



Looks like pretty even distribution to me.

If Pete's true directive was to only throw outside, then yeah he should have been canned a long time ago. It just doesn't hold weight in light of this data.

 

[cymatica]

This preconception is brought up a lot but may need to be updated in light of recent data.

Here are a few pass charts from this season:

View attachment 63650

This is Drew Lock's pass chart:

View attachment 63648

This is Geno's pass chart in week 17:

View attachment 63649

Looks like pretty even distribution to me.

If Pete's true directive was to only throw outside, then yeah he should have been canned a long time ago. It just doesn't hold weight in light of this data.

That's just cherry picked from a couple games. Seattle led the league in passes outside the numbers and there are games with pass charts that have hardly any throws to the middle. This is not a false narrative, the data proves it.

 

[hoxrox]

That's just cherry picked from a couple games. Seattle led the league in passes outside the numbers and there are games with pass charts that have hardly any throws to the middle. This is not a false narrative, the data proves it.

Does it though? Go back and look at 2022 then. Plenty of passes over the middle:

NGS | NFL Next Gen Stats

NFL’s Next Gen Stats captures real time location data, speed and acceleration for every player, every play on every inch of the field. Discover Next Gen Stats News, Charts, and Statistics.

nextgenstats.nfl.com

 

[cymatica]

Does it though? Go back and look at 2022 then. Plenty of passes over the middle:

NGS | NFL Next Gen Stats

NFL’s Next Gen Stats captures real time location data, speed and acceleration for every player, every play on every inch of the field. Discover Next Gen Stats News, Charts, and Statistics.

nextgenstats.nfl.com

They had the highest pass rate outside the numbers this year, that's a fact

 

[Fudwamper]

Does it though? Go back and look at 2022 then. Plenty of passes over the middle:

NGS | NFL Next Gen Stats

NFL’s Next Gen Stats captures real time location data, speed and acceleration for every player, every play on every inch of the field. Discover Next Gen Stats News, Charts, and Statistics.

nextgenstats.nfl.com

Yea it does, I just looked. Also notice that most of the throws over the middle are less then 10 yards and in some cases look like dump off passes. You know the kind at the end of the game to the rb when all the d is doing is defending the lines.

 

[JayhawkMike]

For me, I really think of Waldron as the OC of his first game which was awesome. And then PC screwed that up. If we get 1st game Waldron again now that PC is gone I really have no issue with that.

 

[hoxrox]

They had the highest pass rate outside the numbers this year, that's a fact

Do you have a source for this? I'd be interested in seeing more than one year's worth of data.

It still wouldn't prove A = B, but would help make the case either way.

 

[cymatica]

Do you have a source for this? I'd be interested in seeing more than one year's worth of data.

It still wouldn't prove A = B, but would help make the case either way.

I looked it up a while ago when Pete was asked about it on Brock and Salk. They brought it up to Pete. Not sure where I found it but it was a real stat

 

[BASF]

The Waldron timeline is simple. Wilson wanted him. Carroll hired him. Wilson actually talked to him. Team Me3 released to the press that Wilson has no faith in the Seahawks coaching staff (probably because Waldron wanted to run more timing stuff). We get a new shiny offense with Waldron week 1 which Wilson stopped running the plays as designed in game two. Carroll criticizes Wilson for not taking the short plays as designed. Wilson reaponds in his following presser that he knows how to win (throwing deep into double coverage when there is open people at intermediate depth for the first down) and that he has done a lot of it. We don't run Waldron's offense again until Wilson is removed due to injury. Geno proceeds to "do what he is told" and most Seahawks fans see the difference as refreshing. Wilson comes back too early and we were back to same old stuff.

Next season we jettison Wilson to much consternation, but Waldron and Smith have a good first half of the season. Second half of the season, Waldron starts calling too many plays that are repetitive and Geno starts making "turnover worthy throws" even though it is DBs jumping routes from a stale route tree that Waldron changes very little.

Last season followed the same pattern. Going to the same well too often just shows the predators where you are going to be and when you do under the same timing and circumstances your are serving yourself up on a platter. That is Shane Waldron.

 

[Fade]

Waldron was a good OC with room for improvement.

Hurtt??? Hahahahahahahah. Oh, Pete! Why'd you do this to yourself?

On that note. How come no one wants Pete? It's been crickets for him as well.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Waldron was a good OC with room for improvement.

Hurtt??? Hahahahahahahah. Oh, Pete! Why'd you do this to yourself?

On that note. How come no one wants Pete? It's been crickets for him as well.

Is Pete even indicating that he's available?

He might be a consideration for some of these teams if he were indicating availability, but it'd take a pretty specific fit given his age. Bill B. has been broadcast as imminently available all year in contrast to Carroll.

 

[JPatera76]

Petes still under contract.. Fade lol do you ever post without some kind of knife behind your back waiting?

 

[renofox]

Is Pete even indicating that he's available?

He might be a consideration for some of these teams if he were indicating availability, but it'd take a pretty specific fit given his age. Bill B. has been broadcast as imminently available all year in contrast to Carroll.

Portions of PC's presser were him advertising to NFL owners and GM's that he was ready to coach another team ASAP. He reiterated it on his final radio Pete Carroll show.

No bites AFAIK.

 

[Ozzy]

I do think if a team wanted Pete Seattle would easily let him go although I have no idea how that contract works? I’m a little surprised there seems to be zero interest or buzz in him. I know I’m in the minority but I think the league somewhat agreed with Seattle letting him go.

 

[renofox]

I do think if a team wanted Pete Seattle would easily let him go although I have no idea how that contract works? I’m a little surprised there seems to be zero interest or buzz in him. I know I’m in the minority but I think the league somewhat agreed with Seattle letting him go.

Maybe. But even if there was interest I'm pretty sure they'd be talking with Jody/Bert first to see if they would let him go and how much it would cost. Only when they had a green light would they approach PC, and then only discreetly. We would never hear anything about it unless it was a done deal.

 

[Ozzy]

Maybe. But even if there was interest I'm pretty sure they'd be talking with Jody/Bert first to see if they would let him go and how much it would cost. Only when they had a green light would they approach PC, and then only discreetly. We would never hear anything about it unless it was a done deal.

Completely reasonable. Just seems like if teams were interested in Pete we’d hear rumblings and we haven’t heard a word.

 

[GemCity]

Sample size is important. If you want a decent sample size, look at Russell’s heatmap. Oh I know…he was too short to throw up the middle.

Waldron was absolutely influenced by PC. PC saying they needed to run more, and subsequently doing it or not doing it, is and has been on PC. How many coaches do you know of that drop subtle hints in pressers rather than give orders/directives to their OC and/or DC?

Do people really find it that hard to believe that Pete’s philosophy, on both O and D, was far reaching? Same HC that had more say so than his GM?

Pete, while I consider him a legend, WAS fired. It’s not uncommon for new HCs, brought in externally, to hire their own staff.

Maybe…juiuuust maybe….Waldron, the same guy the Seahawks felt could do the job, had a catastrophic decline in the short time he was here. I doubt it.

I’m comfortable with the assumption that he wasn’t 100% in charge of the offense.