The annual bone-headed FO/FA move

[bjornanderson21]

very long, but did read

Lynch was and Graham were trades. You seem to treat their acquisition like free agent pickups, they were not.

Your original premise was bone headed moves. You have now expanded it to some sort of treatise on free agency being a different animal than the rest of their team building process.

You probably should have stuck with the original thought, boneheaded moves.

I personally don't think they have some separate philosophy for free agents or rookies or guys they trade for. I think it is way simpler than that.

They want players who compete. They occasionally get it wrong because humans can be really surprising creatures, both good and bad.
Cary Williams got freaked out by not fitting ON THE FIELD, and stopped competing. His last game he was not a press bail corner, he was a bail corner, and when it was clear he was more worried about getting beat deep every play than anything else, he got the mid game axe. Never saw the field again in Seattle. Not competing was the sin, though. As far as his acquisition, it was a terrible corner market, he had some pedigree, was a comparitive bargain, and fit their profile. I think they thought they could mold him in 2 months. THey were wrong. It happens. Blaming them for Kam feeling slighted is dumb, and anyone who does needs to watch less soap operas. Kam included.

Harvin was not acquired through some free agency method. First, he was a trade, not a signing, though the big contract made it feel like a free agent move. 2nd, that move is completely on Pete. Pete relied on his scouting and attempts to get Harvin to go to USC, not any reports of discord from Minnesota. Like many of us would do, he relied on first hand knowledge of a person over media reports. He was wrong.

But while discord was the reason Percy was traded for peanuts, Percy wasn't competing either. It wasn't as clear to see as what happened to Williams on the field in front of all our eyes, but I was watching the all 22 at the time, and there was a notable lack of effort from Percy that varied depending on his game involvement. The pressure on the OC to get him touches was compounded by him being a very unpolished route runner who starts taking plays off if he doesn't feel involved.
In less words, Percy was an entitled jerk, and the word entitled implies a lack of competing. Him being a total douchebag made it easier to let him go, but if you could ask Pete why it happened, I am certain he would spin it to Percy not competing is some way as the reason for the failed move. It was easily Pete's most boneheaded move because he relied on his own college scouting over real reports of a malcontent, but the actual results on the field were enough for even the most critical Seahawk fan to get why Pete wanted the guy.

My own long reply ends this way. I think every move should exist in a vacuum. examine it on it's own merits, and use competition as the 100 watt bulb for your examination. There is no real philosophy other than that. Overpaid free agents, bargain free agents, draftees, squeaky clean guys like Wilson and dirty rep guys like Percy and Frank Clark are here for one reason, Pete and the people he leads think they can compete in practice and on the field. When they stop thinking that, the guy is gone.

Finally, someone else who saw Harvin's lack of effort. It was easily seen by anyone who paid attention. But im confused about the part where you say even the most critical fan could see why they wanted him. Im the most critical fan and he was a disaster from day 1 and at no point looked like he would be a good addition.

When Harvin is getting the handoff = run full speed

When harvin is a runningback decoy = run at 50-70% speed.


When harvin's number is called for a pass = run hard to get close to the ball so he can drop the pass

When harvin is a WR decoy = run at 50-70% speed.


The guy was a failure in every way: huge cost of draft picks, grossly overpaid, injured all the time, not very productive in the few games he played, and a terrible attitude.

A trade simply CANNOT go worse than the Harvin trade.

Al Davis never made a move that bad. Jerry Jones never made a move that bad. Ruskell never made a move that bad.

 

[chris98251]

very long, but did read

Lynch was and Graham were trades. You seem to treat their acquisition like free agent pickups, they were not.

Your original premise was bone headed moves. You have now expanded it to some sort of treatise on free agency being a different animal than the rest of their team building process.

You probably should have stuck with the original thought, boneheaded moves.

I personally don't think they have some separate philosophy for free agents or rookies or guys they trade for. I think it is way simpler than that.

They want players who compete. They occasionally get it wrong because humans can be really surprising creatures, both good and bad.
Cary Williams got freaked out by not fitting ON THE FIELD, and stopped competing. His last game he was not a press bail corner, he was a bail corner, and when it was clear he was more worried about getting beat deep every play than anything else, he got the mid game axe. Never saw the field again in Seattle. Not competing was the sin, though. As far as his acquisition, it was a terrible corner market, he had some pedigree, was a comparitive bargain, and fit their profile. I think they thought they could mold him in 2 months. THey were wrong. It happens. Blaming them for Kam feeling slighted is dumb, and anyone who does needs to watch less soap operas. Kam included.

Harvin was not acquired through some free agency method. First, he was a trade, not a signing, though the big contract made it feel like a free agent move. 2nd, that move is completely on Pete. Pete relied on his scouting and attempts to get Harvin to go to USC, not any reports of discord from Minnesota. Like many of us would do, he relied on first hand knowledge of a person over media reports. He was wrong.

But while discord was the reason Percy was traded for peanuts, Percy wasn't competing either. It wasn't as clear to see as what happened to Williams on the field in front of all our eyes, but I was watching the all 22 at the time, and there was a notable lack of effort from Percy that varied depending on his game involvement. The pressure on the OC to get him touches was compounded by him being a very unpolished route runner who starts taking plays off if he doesn't feel involved.
In less words, Percy was an entitled jerk, and the word entitled implies a lack of competing. Him being a total douchebag made it easier to let him go, but if you could ask Pete why it happened, I am certain he would spin it to Percy not competing is some way as the reason for the failed move. It was easily Pete's most boneheaded move because he relied on his own college scouting over real reports of a malcontent, but the actual results on the field were enough for even the most critical Seahawk fan to get why Pete wanted the guy.

My own long reply ends this way. I think every move should exist in a vacuum. examine it on it's own merits, and use competition as the 100 watt bulb for your examination. There is no real philosophy other than that. Overpaid free agents, bargain free agents, draftees, squeaky clean guys like Wilson and dirty rep guys like Percy and Frank Clark are here for one reason, Pete and the people he leads think they can compete in practice and on the field. When they stop thinking that, the guy is gone.

Finally, someone else who saw Harvin's lack of effort. It was easily seen by anyone who paid attention. But im confused about the part where you say even the most critical fan could see why they wanted him. Im the most critical fan and he was a disaster from day 1 and at no point looked like he would be a good addition.

When Harvin is getting the handoff = run full speed

When harvin is a runningback decoy = run at 50-70% speed.


When harvin's number is called for a pass = run hard to get close to the ball so he can drop the pass

When harvin is a WR decoy = run at 50-70% speed.


The guy was a failure in every way: huge cost of draft picks, grossly overpaid, injured all the time, not very productive in the few games he played, and a terrible attitude.

A trade simply CANNOT go worse than the Harvin trade.

Al Davis never made a move that bad. Jerry Jones never made a move that bad. Ruskell never made a move that bad.

Nope Russell was a great QB for them and that was a draft pick. Raiders had their share of busts as well, every team has.

 

[KiwiHawk]

Ruskell never made a move that bad.

And with that all credibility is destroyed.

Ruskell completely blew it with Steve Hutchinson and effectively slammed shut our Super Bowl window while alienating his head coach in one of the most colossal boneheaded moves of all time.

 

[jammerhawk]

Exactly my point, Percy motivated and "happy" could be a geniuine force. Those who scouted the player saw it in spades, and so did we rarely. The team took a risk on his health and made a luxury pick, it could have been amazing if the player was not suffering from a personality disorder he'd mostly kept hidden, and he got paid b/c the team wanted him happy and motivated. However deep down though he was a malcontent, even when paid. He was a malcontent and when the true 'Percy' was revealed we saw Pete get rid of him as he was a genuine team cancer and only willing to play on 'Percy's' agenda. Blaming anyone but Percy is freaking rubbish, historical reconstructionism, blame game nonsense. Go ahead with it but you'll never convince me that Percy wasn't really the whole problem.

Bevell knew Percy to be a very exceptionally talented athlete, and he knew the player would potentially be special in Seattle, if he could be incorporated into his O, so did John and Pete, trouble is Percy only was interested in Percy and not joining any team but team Percy. Seattle for sure overpaid for what this head case delivered, however I do thank him for that XLVIII kickoff return that sealed the W, even though the team around Percy would have undoubtedly got it done without him. That was he only really legit contribution here. It was clearly apparent prior him leaving he was not 'all in' by any stretch, too many stories, too many questionable unavailable days, he was a malingerer, and I was glad to see him gone so the Percy questions would be over. It got tedious, will he play this week, what is he health status, blah, blah? He became a true 'whatever', an expensive distraction, he had to go and was gone as soon as he publicly put himself ahead of the team, the team shipped him out. C'ya! After that overdue severence the stories became public, he genuinely was a cancer. He was a head case and after the fact clearly trading for him was a mistake. That said does anyone remember those 3 consecutive Seahawks TDs that were all but one called back? He could be amazing. He did have a special ability to take over a game, trouble is he didn't often feel that 'Percy' needed to play. Imagine how frustrating that was to the coaches who could see his exceptional ability consistently unrealized. He certainly was confusing to me.

I'm sorry but blaming Pete, John, Bevell, or anyone else but Percy for his failure here blames the wrong guy. Percy will soon be out of the league, having burned his bridges behind him, he refuses to commit to being anything more than what he wants to be, but has the physical ability to be an OPOY but won't ever be because he is a head case. Too bad.

Making personnel mistakes is part of the deal for any front office, nothing ventured, nothing gained. I for one think nobody is perfect and for sure we all make mistakes. Percy was a mistake, but he could have been special. Certainly Cary Williams was a mistake but he did have potential. Frequently numerous draft picks don't work out, free agent acquisitions often don't pay off. You do need to try and keep on working it, and this FO is doing it better than it has ever been done here before. I like the attitude of occasionally going big and not going home, sometimes you need to swing for the fence. When Graham finally gets incorporated here we all will agree that trade was a smart move, one of many made by them. Already around the league the Hawks FO commends mad respect. It's hard to do well, and they are kicking rears doing it.

1. There is no such thing as a "luxury pick" in the NFL. It simply does not exist.

2. There is no such thing as a "luxury huge contract" in the NFL. It simply does not exist.

3. NONE OF THOSE THINGS EXIST!!!!


PS. Harvin's failures are not due to him "not being happy". He is not a WR. He is a RB who can only run to the outside and occasionally go on routes. He is an extremely incomplete player, like a LB who can't tackle, a CB who can't track a football, or an offensive lineman who can't block.

I will not defend Percy b/c he doesn't deserve more than our contempt. For sure he has mine. Guys who waste their talent don't deserve less.

Disagree however with your assessment of his positional value. I saw him as an athletic presence he was very elusive strong quick, and fast. Pete saw him best as hopefully a better version of Golden Tate as a WR with the ability to be a RAC monster. Thing is as many here have pointed out 'Percy' was too busy being 'Percy' to compete. He thought himself above competing b/c he was 'Percy'. The coaches vision for Percy never materialized b/c Percy wouldn't let it. He was unprepared to be a team player on a team that values athletic superiority.

If Percy had developed himself as a WR and or even played like he did with Favre before his hip injury he would have been worth his 'luxury contract'. I believe Harvin had the ability to be a quality WR but refused to be. Had he become a complete WR or more than what he was here the trade would have been seen as a brilliant move rather than a huge mistake. I doubt the team wasn't aware of Percy's oddness prior to making the deal, or of his hip issue. It was a chance for the team to acquire a field tilting player who was widely thought capable of being a OPOY quality guy.

Percy simply never bought in here. He was/is too self absorbed to play on this and likely any championship team. Thing is that his oddness and refusal to be part of the team I suspect surprised even Pete. Your view of luxury pick and mine are perhaps different, but perhaps the team made a move they didn't need to. What they paid Harvin was fair as far as the market, but they could have kept Tate if they hadn't acquired Harvin They swung for the fences and struck out, but saw a player they thought they could develop into a special player here. How different things would look if we weren't applying the retrospectoscope to this transaction. The blame is on Percy though and not upon the FO, he could have been special but was more interested in not being anything more than what he was, a deeply flawed individual.

I suspect he'll be out of the league sooner than later as the Jets had enough of him and so will Buffalo, 0-4. Sadly lots of players never allow themselves to be all they can be Percy is just one of many.

 

[Hawkfan77]

Finally, someone else who saw Harvin's lack of effort. It was easily seen by anyone who paid attention. But im confused about the part where you say even the most critical fan could see why they wanted him. Im the most critical fan and he was a disaster from day 1 and at no point looked like he would be a good addition.

When Harvin is getting the handoff = run full speed

When harvin is a runningback decoy = run at 50-70% speed.


When harvin's number is called for a pass = run hard to get close to the ball so he can drop the pass

When harvin is a WR decoy = run at 50-70% speed.


The guy was a failure in every way: huge cost of draft picks, grossly overpaid, injured all the time, not very productive in the few games he played, and a terrible attitude.

A trade simply CANNOT go worse than the Harvin trade.

Al Davis never made a move that bad. Jerry Jones never made a move that bad. Ruskell never made a move that bad.

Hahahahaha, you never miss an opportunity to bring up your obsession with Harvin, do you?

 

[TwistedHusky]

I actually think that Harvin has a personality disorder, but that is besides the point. That guy might as well have "I am a perfect example of borderline personality disorder" taped to his back. Not saying it is the case, but a lot of the signs sure are there.

We covered the issue. Players we traded for or signed came in with worth ethic and attitude problems. For some reason, players with these problems still got the team to pay full price for them. And it blew up in the Seahawk's faces. Repeatedly.

The question is, why does this team continually think it will be different for them? They regularly bring in guys that all these other teams have problems with and it regularly blows up in their faces. You would think that considering the culture & energy they cultivate they would want to keep toxic personalities out - but they trade for them and they pay full price.

Marshawn had a DUI in Buffalo and he had some issues with the press. Though you certainly didn't see anything on the field that indicated he was a problem, and I suppose we have to acknowledge that he has always been a little bit prickly with how you have to handle him here. Maybe the team thought lightning would strike twice?

It reminds me of my ex-bassist who kept dating strippers because they were pretty and then was shocked that they cheated on him and had all these sexual hangups besides the point. Yeah dude, because you keep dating strippers - which is why they were available in the first place. Guys like Harvin and CJ end up available because they weren't working out somewhere else, it might at least be reasonable to consider why before signing them to big deals.

That said, I think our FO does a good job of identifying new blood through the draft, even if the unconventional approach means we has some early rd misses. And some of the lower priced FAs, I am fine with taking a flyer on. But the bigger moves? If you are scoring at home, we have been in negative territory for some time on that front, to the point where I am understandably nervous about the next move they make.

 

[Hawkfan77]

I actually think that Harvin has a personality disorder, but that is besides the point. That guy might as well have "I am a perfect example of borderline personality disorder" taped to his back. Not saying it is the case, but a lot of the signs sure are there.

We covered the issue. Players we traded for or signed came in with worth ethic and attitude problems. For some reason, players with these problems still got the team to pay full price for them. And it blew up in the Seahawk's faces. Repeatedly.

The question is, why does this team continually think it will be different for them? They regularly bring in guys that all these other teams have problems with and it regularly blows up in their faces. You would think that considering the culture & energy they cultivate they would want to keep toxic personalities out - but they trade for them and they pay full price.

Marshawn had a DUI in Buffalo and he had some issues with the press. Though you certainly didn't see anything on the field that indicated he was a problem, and I suppose we have to acknowledge that he has always been a little bit prickly with how you have to handle him here. Maybe the team thought lightning would strike twice?

It reminds me of my ex-bassist who kept dating strippers because they were pretty and then was shocked that they cheated on him and had all these sexual hangups besides the point. Yeah dude, because you keep dating strippers - which is why they were available in the first place. Guys like Harvin and CJ end up available because they weren't working out somewhere else, it might at least be reasonable to consider why before signing them to big deals.

That said, I think our FO does a good job of identifying new blood through the draft, even if the unconventional approach means we has some early rd misses. And some of the lower priced FAs, I am fine with taking a flyer on. But the bigger moves? If you are scoring at home, we have been in negative territory for some time on that front, to the point where I am understandably nervous about the next move they make.

Such an over the top ridiculous post.

So because of Harvin and who? Cary Williams, Hawks acquiring of players other than draft repeatedly blows up in their face? Yeah, ok...

Lynch, Clemons, Bennett, Avril, Browner, Miller, Breno, McDaniel, Mike Rob and Graham was starting to come on before he got hurt. So I don't where "it blows up in the Seahawks face repeatedly" comes in.

Selective memory must sure be nice

 

[GeekHawk]

...How different things would look if we weren't applying the retrospectoscope...

The whole thread was worth it just for this!

 

[TwistedHusky]

"Lynch, Clemons, Bennett, Avril, Browner, Miller, Breno, McDaniel, Mike Rob and Graham was starting to come on before he got hurt. So I don't where "it blows up in the Seahawks face repeatedly" comes in. "

Huge difference between betting $500 on a hand and $50K. Or in this case $5M.

Of the players listed above, what was the price tag? And how many of those came in with huge attitude, work ethic problems? Not Clemons or Bennett, certainly not Avril or Mike Rob.

So yes, if you bring in guys that are not setting fires elsewhere, they probably won't burn your house down either. Congratulations for figuring that out.

So far small moves? They come out ahead. Mid-Tier guys? Sure, we found some keepers in there. Though I we lot our interior push when we lost our guy to Miami and brought in Rubin instead. Call it a wash.

It shouldn't be that hard to follow that high cost guys get their own category because the cost of failure is so high. And because high cost guys are so visible, you have to scrutinize why they are available in the first place. This shouldn't strain you to figure it out. Because unlike the other tiers listed, a mistake in the higher tiers is 5-9M in salary that tends to hurt how you pay & keep the rest of your team running.

Also, most of the you guys listed were years ago. So yes, several years ago they were not making tremendous FA mistakes yearly like they are now. But the past few years? Blew up in their face repeatedly, if you cannot figure that out...well I cannot help you.

Finally, the book on Graham is still out. So far? The deal is a net loser.

Here is what we know:

Our offense got better when he went out.
He has a history of being easily taken out of games by physical play.
He is injured and some speculate that him coming back to full production is not a given.

In fairness Graham trade is still waiting to be scored, but so far? Well our OL got worse, our QB got repeatedly hammered and clearly we lost games as a result. It hurt our chances this season.

 

[jammerhawk]

Wow, TH give the player a whole season before you write him off. He was getting stronger and stronger just before he got hurt. I'll wait to see two full years. He at least is not a malcontent and could be special here.

The team has not had consistently positive results from FA/trade acquisitions, but there have been a few that have been real scores and some horrible clunkers. I'd suspect the team has done about average in that regard but I agree mostly with your premise that the team should take real care with outsider acquisitions.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

Ruskell never made a move that bad.

And with that all credibility is destroyed.

Ruskell completely blew it with Steve Hutchinson and effectively slammed shut our Super Bowl window while alienating his head coach in one of the most colossal boneheaded moves of all time.

Yep.

And BTW bjornanderson21 and Twisted, blaming John for anything is not a great way to support your points anyway. Pete has final authority over roster and player personnel. Yes, he works closely with John and John has plenty of input but it's Pete that the buck stops with.

Oh, and one other thing......it was John who convinced Pete that Russell Wilson was a guy worth drafting. Without the franchise QB that John believed in and had a huge part in the Hawks drafting, Seattle right now is the Chiefs, good D, good running game and zero Super Bowl appearances.

 

[TwistedHusky]

I never said it was John.

FO is the Front Office. And they have done a tremendous job on all the rest, but those mistakes on the high priced guys are killing us.

Please don't imply I am blaming one person. There is clearly a group that makes these decisions, a process that defines it, and a final process to approve.

Just as I never said Graham has no chance, I said that trading for him hurt our chances THIS YEAR. Maybe next year he makes up for it, but that will be a rough road because every year the Hawks are going to get weaker.

I am not incredibly optimistic on Graham but I am hopeful.

 

[Scottemojo]

Pete has been true to competition, for the most part.
and sometimes in a competition, the losers become pretty plain to see. calling them boneheaded feels overly critical to me.

Cary Williams for instance. Did it work? Nope. But then again, had they tried to take a veteran player who fit the CB profile they have here in Seattle and make him a cover 3 press corner before? Nope. And I doubt they will try it again. Doing it repeatedly will be boneheaded, doing it once is the learning process.

Though while here I am criticizing the use of the word boneheaded, I have called the lack of a solid plan at center "hubris" a bunch of times this year. Thinking Nowak could play from day one was to me as big a mistake as signing Harvin. One mistake threatened team chemistry off the field and was more than our playcaller could manage on the field, the other was dangerous to the health and evolution of our QB. In fact, by that standard, the Nowak decision was a bigger mistake than the Harvin deal.

But the front office moved on from both mistakes fairly quickly, and lightning fast by NFL standards. Which cannot be overstated as a very awesome thing. Admitting mistakes is one of the most common NFL hindrances to team progress.

I still am not a big fan of the Graham trade, but I understand it. The plan to have superior athletes at all positions on the line is one I still do not get. I get the theory, don't misunderstand me there, I just don't get the practical application. Good linemen communicate well, have intuition as a strength, good centers are a second set of eyes for the QB, and this plan to be uber athletic at the OL seems to ignore those qualities over a love of combine numbers and aggression. Which is why I call it hubris. If in two years Sokoli is kicking ass at center I will regret my words, but I really kind of doubt it happens.

In no universe is Nowak starting anywhere near as bad as the harvin trade.

Huge contract + valuable draft picks + almost 0 production + dividing the lockerroom has already made the Harvin trade the worst or second worst trade in NFL history.

Did nowak take up the draft picks Harvin did? Nope.

Did Nowak make like $20m to play a few games? Nope.

It can be debated who was worse on the field, especially with our offense changing to fit Harvin.

Did Nowak cause lockerroom problems? Nope.


They would need to trade away a 1st, 3rd and 7th or whatever, AND give Nowak the same contract as Harvin in order for them to be equal.

And you have the audacity to say Nowak was worse?

Percy cost us a perfect 19-0 season in 2013. If we had just signed a decent WR who actually played we would have gone 19-0 AND we would have been better positioned to win LAST YEAR because we would have had more cap space AND maybe one or two of those draft picks would have been used on good players.

But thanks for the laugh....nowak worse than harvin trade....that's classic

You think the Percy trade was worse than nuclear war, so I will just LOL and move along. Percy cost a perfect season? Impossible to prove.

But if Nowak had gotten Russell hurt, and that chance was real, it would have shown a spotlight on just how stupid a decision starting center with no experience, not even college, really was.

Percy cost a lot. But we went to the SB both of his seasons. With home field advantage. Nowak? He was a key part of some early losses. and a near record pace of sacks.

 

[canfan]

Letting Tom Cable hand pick the O line draft choices. Almost guaranteed to be a terrible pick

THIS. RIGHT. HERE.

Tom Cable is our version of Jerruh Jones. Send him to Tanzania for the Draft please. :thfight7:

I doubt there is another coach in the league that could have gotten THOSE guys to play as well as they were playing late in the season. The improvement was steady and actually surprising considering how bad they were early on.

I don't think anybody doubts Cable's coaching ability. It's his ability to evaluate who will be a good fit for the O Line and what traits he values most that gives me some pause.

 

[chris98251]

Cables ability to polish turds is taken for granted, evaluation of skills and getting lineman that need dusting off is what we really need.