The annual bone-headed FO/FA move

AgentDib

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TwistedHusky":cn9g1aob said:
You do realize that decisions that result in bad outcomes are generally called bad decisions? Right?
What is your purpose behind conflating outcomes and decisions? Surely you can acknowledge that many good decisions could have a bad outcome (ie. a plane crash) and plenty of bad decisions can have good outcomes (ie. buying a lottery ticket). There is no merit to arguing that a decision was bad because the outcome was bad.

TwistedHusky":cn9g1aob said:
By the way, they didn't "cut him in the middle of the year because it was a bad outcome". A bad outcome could mean that he just couldn't perform on the field.
The uncertainty element here is information. There is imperfect information about everything in FA, whether that is future player health, future player performance, future player locker room chemistry, etc.

A good FO will do whatever they can to minimize those sources of uncertainty (due diligence) but it only starts narrowing significantly once the player is in the building. Now they have the opportunity to actually see how he fits and every day of practice reduces the uncertainty range a little more. The uncertainty range around Cary Williams narrowed to the point where they decided to cut him halfway during the season, but it was still large enough in training camp that he made the team.

TwistedHusky":cn9g1aob said:
Sure sounds like an attitude and locker room impact problem to me, the very thing that SHOULD have been the worry in signing him in the first place. Leave aside he was terrible, adding him to the team was bad for other reasons that really should have tilted the scale to NOT signing early in the game. That the evaluation process either missed this or chose to overlook is the key issue that leads to all the other problems.
Criticizing a move for substantive reasons is fair game and I'm not sticking up for the Cary move specifically. Perhaps they did do incomplete homework on him or perhaps they thought they could handle it. Perhaps the locker room angle was fine and it really was just performance reasons that they gained negative information about to the point where they released him.

TwistedHusky":cn9g1aob said:
But if a segment of that collection consistently has a higher "bad outcome"? Then you need to evaluate whether that segment should use the same decision process.
Obviously correct, although I would argue that the Hawks FO has overall excellent outcomes when assessing secondary talent.
 

dogorama

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TwistedHusky":28z9q1ey said:
What was the 2nd one?

Cutting the center on a run first team stuck with a line consisting of unskilled or inexperienced (ex-DL) still trying to learn the positions/play....

And I don't care about the trade Mc.SoWhat that we got from the Chiefs...but the guys we load down with big contracts that come from outside the team, Harvin and that idiot from Philly come to mind.

It guts the cohesion in the lockerroom when guys that are outperforming their contracts see guys some in and get big change without really being much more than capable or healthy enough to compete/play. It also constantly bites us in the *ss on keeping guys that we need to keep.

The reason that teams that lose the SB often fail to even make the playoffs the next year is that instead of making minor changes, the team often goes "all in" (* this is know as being reckless/stupid in English) and makes a big FA move or trade. They feel pressured to make big changes to "get over the hump" when often they got to the big game and lost by one or two drives, maybe even a few yards or seconds. But they ramrod some new player in, tearing holes in other areas to fit them or afford them.

Invariably, it does not work out, disturbs the core group and things start to collapse shortly thereafter. Usually the more heralded the FA, less likely it is to work out.

Also, as fans of Jimmy Graham and our last CB, Byron Maxwell, can attest: Your ability to perform is dependent on the framework in which you are asked to contribute. So a person with high #s often is working within a framework that works well for them, often switching to a new team leads to fall-off because they don't work within the new framework as well.

So it is always a better risk to either shoot for someone like Walter Thurmond, who is gifted but cheap because of injury risk, or get someone from an unheralded team that you can get for less because they get less attention. Either way, you cannot afford to commit big $ to outside FAs because the risk is too great and the #s not uniform. You cannot trust them.

But our FO has a tendency to bring in one high cost guy repeatedly that does not work out. Almost annually. This year they compounded that by trading away a strength (Run blocking and center) to focus on building off a weakness (our OL and pass blocking).

You said pretty everything I was thinking. Then there is of course the the definition of insanity, i.e. doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
 

KiwiHawk

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I'll chime in to try to shed some light since TH is really not getting the concept.

The decision is made prior to testing the result of the decision which then leads to an outcome.

I like to use the Amahn Green example. He was a promising player who had bigtime fumbling problems while he was a Seahawk. The Seahawks had Alexander and Watters on the roster at the time. The Seahawks needed help in the defensive secondary, and Green Bay offered CB Fred Vinson, a 2nd-round pick in '99. They made the decision to trade Green to Green Bay.

Was this a stupid decision? Don't examine anything after the fact - just look at the circumstances as of the time of the trade and determine if, with all available knowledge, it was a smart or dumb decision. Given two backs scheduled to start ahead of Green, Green was expendable, and we needed a corner, so it seems like a fine deal for both teams.

Subsequently - this being "testing the result of the decision", Amahn Green tore up the record books in Green Bay, while Vinson tore an ACL in a pickup basketball game and never played for the Seahawks.

It was a terrible outcome.

This is a perfect example of the decision being sound but the outcome bad.

With regard to Williams, he had shown promise, but didn't do well in Philly. Anyone who has anything to do with judging secondary players knows that cornerbacks look fantastic when paired with a brilliant safety. When Ed Reed was drafted, both the Miami corners were drafted high and neither of them amounted to anything - Reed made them look good. Williams also looked good with Reed. Not so good without Reed, but hey, Seattle has Thomas, so he should look good again. Keep in mind our coach has a fundamental belief that he can bring out the best in players.

So on that basis, the decision looks sound.

The outcome wasn't good, however. But that's the outcome, which can be judged in hindsight, not the decision, which can only be assessed given the available information at the time of the decision.

If it makes you feel any better, teams have been signing our cornerbacks away from us for years and all of them pretty much fade into obscurity once they leave Seattle. It happens. This time it happened to us. Credit the front office for making the decision to move on instead of waiting longer for him to come right.
 
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TwistedHusky

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OK now we get to the heart of the matter. CJ was a symptom of the problem and not the problem itself. Which is the essentially the point of the thread.

(* By the way, I come from the decision support space, so I know the difference between outcome and decision but a good decision needs to maximize % opportunity while mitigating risk. Where there is risk, there needs to be an outcome where that payoff offsets that risk with a reasonable % expected outcome. Decision processes that repeatedly lead to bad outcomes are the very definition of bad decisions/flawed processes or both)

The problem is the process for FAs is nowhere near what we need. Now there are reasons for that, I suspect some might be cultural (ie our system naturally is adverse to outsiders by nature) and some are because the system to eval draft picks is likely close to the system to eval FAs, which I argue should not be the case.

So let's look at the FO success. Yes they have tremendous success eval great corners IN THE DRAFT. That does not mean that eval success rate is going to be the same for a FA.

I will give you one big reason right now. As covered by other Seahawk sites, our corners rely heavily on something called the "step-kick" technique. Apparently this makes it easier for the corner to be physical with the opposing player but harder to lose the player in doing so (getting burned). The problem seems to be that it is both counterintuitive, hard to learn and hard to learn to trust.

Which makes sense that they draft a # of people that fit a particular profile, and run a process through which they hope a certain % will stick. And this bears out in the #s, we it looks like we go through about 3-4 members of the secondary before we find one that will stick. Not saying this is the only reason, but given the challenge it sounds like an obstacle.

So you bring in someone that already uses this to lower the risk, but it apparently isn't as common (for example CJ didn't before he got here or even after). So bringing in a FA corner immediately has a built in failure factor, both because the technique has a bit of a washout rate with people that cannot or do not pick it up - and because the more experienced a player the harder it is to get them to change their instincts and play within the system you know works.

Now this is just corners but there are myriad other factors where drafted players vs FAs require attention to completely different issues. But right on the surface is a reason a FA secondary acquisition has an additional failure factor.

Since we are also talking conflating, conflating talent and skill is a big issue. It looks like in the draft, we do focus on talent. But when you bring in FAs you are paying for skill. So they might indeed do a tremendous job in identifying secondary talent but that might not be applicable to bringing in effective experienced secondary at all. Because they might indeed be overweighting talent over skill, which explains millions to an ineffective CB from a crappy defense and it explains Harvin right out of the box.
 

KiwiHawk

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I think you're oversimplifying a few factors.

One is the money. Good NFL corners for cheap just aren't out there. Not that $6 million per year is especially cheap, but it's a lot less than the $10 million Maxwell got in Philly. Cap management is HUGE in the modern NFL.

Two is people. They're not widgets. They change over time and in different circumstances. Maxwell said he was pressing too hard to show he was worth the big contract when he got to Philly. Williams came into the vaunted Legion of Boom and may have felt pressure to do more rather than just doing his job.

Three is Pete Carroll. He has confidence in himself and his coaches to coach players up. This is why we do well with draft picks. Veterans are less malleable, so there is always the inherent risk they will resist the system or be less receptive to coaching. You can get an idea of this in interviews, but not the real thing until the player is actually in the group interracting with people.

In this regard perhaps Pete can do better, or perhaps we're simply not cut out to have veteran stars as they simply don't work in our system. i agree with you this is definitely a failure factor.

However, that gets back to the money. We get young guys, work out their rough edges, get them productive, and eventually make stars out of them, by which time they hit free agency and are off to different teams because we can't afford to play star price for every position and other teams want our guys so we always have to pay market price.

That means taking some chances, and not all of them work. We pick at a few FA pickups, but we don't just snap our hands and get these drafted/undrafted young guys. We go through a lot of roster moves and sift through a lot of dirt before we find any potential diamonds. Because of signing bonuses and accumulated cap hit, we just can't do that with veteran free agents, so it's an invalid comparison.
 
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TwistedHusky

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Exactly the point.

So stop paying premium dollars for veteran FAs when you know they have a lower % of working out in your system.

More importantly, stop ignoring the problems FAs have elsewhere, bringing them in here, and expecting those problems to magically vanish because of the magic blue uniforms.

Additionally, when you buy at the top of the market, pay premium prices accordingly and then get average production? You are overpaying. Which is the very definition of buying "at the top of the market". Most of us know the #s and know exactly which positions are overvalued. A bad decision in Year 1 can continue to cost the team in Year 3. So sometimes you have to walk away from a bad market. Saying that because everyone else was stupidly paying for corners so you were stuck paying big $$$ to a $ corner makes no sense. Just pay the $ and bring in a lesser corner and put the remaining $$ elsewhere to compensate.

Finally, because veterans are less malleable, which is a point I pounded on in this entire thread. You simply take a key factor that contributes to success with you. Combine that with a process that requires a # of people to go through it to get a successful outcome? It makes no sense to bring in high $ FAs because they will fail here more with the current process.

So either change the process or quit bringing them in. Because it doesn't work. It leads to "bad outcomes" because "bad decisions" are made from a flawed or lacking decision or eval process when it comes to higher cost FAs.

I would also point out that the very "For Our Brothers", family type of Us vs the World atmosphere that we cultivate is naturally going to want to make it harder for outsiders to be accepted. And both Harvin AND CJ have hinted at this, that the culture was very hard to feel included/accepted in. Which is actually standard for these type of organizations that use the 'we are a family together' type of motivational structure.

Our very culture, that we depend on for success, might make it harder for outsiders - especially experienced ones might resist our processes, rituals and systems, to be able to accepted. Since this is a team game that depends upon interlocking pieces that trust each other and move with each other, that seems to indicate one more problem with bringing in the splash player.

Either way, the hit rate on these kinds of moves is abysmal so they either need to stop them or fix the process. Because right now it is 3 failures for 1 semi success which is not the best odds.
 

HawKnPeppa

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Missing_Clink":2ye0xnar said:
ivotuk":2ye0xnar said:
rideaducati":2ye0xnar said:
ivotuk":2ye0xnar said:
Missing_Clink said:
Letting Tom Cable hand pick the O line draft choices. Almost guaranteed to be a terrible pick


THIS. RIGHT. HERE.

Tom Cable is our version of Jerruh Jones. Send him to Tanzania for the Draft please. :thfight7:

I doubt there is another coach in the league that could have gotten THOSE guys to play as well as they were playing late in the season. The improvement was steady and actually surprising considering how bad they were early on.


He's responsible for the poor play, the beating Russell took early on, and the lack of production in our running game early on by trying to force a DT on us at center. And because of that, he is partially responsible for the losses and 6th seed in the playoffs.

And what resume? The one where his line can't pass block, where Marshawn Lynch had the shortest yards before contact in the league? There's a reason we paid Lynch 12 million, because our offensive line sucked. It has been a problem since the beginning, and imho, the only reason we've had any success is because of Marshawn and Russell's Houdini like abilities/

The FO needs to focus on the offensive line, and stop getting cute in signing/drafting failures at Cable's behest (Robert Gallery).

Amen brother! Nothing amazes me more than Tom Cable's "genius" reputation. Could anything be less deserved? Has he ever fielded a competent pass blocking O line in his coaching career? Who of the many "Cable guys" have worked out in Seattle? JR "completely whiffs on 7 blocks for every 1 nice second level block" Sweezy? Color me impressed. :roll:

I agree, his insistence on Nowack cost us a legit shot at the division. That alone should have gotten him fired. But instead, we will likely see them reach on some bad O lineman that Cable loves in this draft because they were former wrestlers or played D line in college.
I still mourn the day Alex Gibbs called it quits. Cable can teach run blocking with the best of them, but his lines have never shown good pass pro. If the FO can't find someone that can develop both aspects of ZBS in a balanced fashion, maybe they need to get over their obsession with that system.

There is added complexity that is a challenge to teach; especially when you are teaching it to total conversion projects. At this point, I'd rather just go to man blocking, and bring in somebody proven, like Bill Calahan. He's an awesome OL coach...just don't give him ANY chance to be HC!
 

AgentDib

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I think there's also a fundamental difference in the nature of the decision. UDFA/5th/6th/7th round picks are really Value of Information problems. We're picking guys with high SPARQ/upside mainly to get more information about them, and if our developmental coaching staff decides the player is a fit then it transitions to a Benefit/Cost decision down the road as we consider extending their contract and their free market value.

Veteran free agency on the other hand is ultimately a losing Benefit/Cost proposition due to the winner's curse. We dip into the pool as we need to (Lane injury -> CW) or where we think the risk is worth it but on balance the Cost/Benefit outcomes will be poorer than from other avenues.

TwistedHusky":320fn083 said:
Either way, the hit rate on these kinds of moves is abysmal so they either need to stop them or fix the process.
I suspect they would love to pass on free agency entirely if they could. At some point you do have short term constraints (injury/busts) that hamper your long term goals of building through the draft. The area that applies to this season is probably the offensive line with the same arguments playing out about Okung/Sweezy.
 
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TwistedHusky

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That is part of my argument.

The cost of FAs to this team is higher, and in fact the success rate is lower in general (the more experienced the FA, likely the lower the success rate, as least a higher contributing failure factor though other items can affect the underlying success rate).

We are still gambling like we do with draft picks (though with good odds for draft picks) but now we are doing it with bad odds at a higher cost. You know what they call gamblers that take bad odds at high cost? Suckers.

You agree with me that in general higher cost FAs are cost vs value props that rarely are beneficial for the team. But counter that the team is forced to do this as a necessity.

Now, I don't think you can argue with a straight face that all (or any) of our dips in the high dollar FA pool were "necessary". In fact my own contention is that Harvin cost us one SB victory and I believe that missing Unger is a key reason we ended up barely squeaking into the 6th slot in the playoffs - so not only were they necessary but they likely cost us in actual end result achieved each year.

When I see the words "Seahawks" + "Blockbuster Trade" or "Blockbuster Signing" I know I am going to see a long screed later, maybe even written by me, of why it did not work out. Because those kinds of signings rarely do for the Seahawks in their current form with their current process.
 

kearly

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This thread ended up going in a much more intellectual direction than I thought it would by the start of it. Some really good stuff in here.

As others have said, a decision can be good even if the result is bad, and vice-versa. The process, not the result, is what should be critiqued.

But even doing things the right way, by attempting to critique a process, is not a perfect method. We are not privy to 100% of the information on that goes into these decisions. Nor can we fully 100% relate to why a coach liked a certain player for a certain scheme.

Every decision a GM makes is a risk/reward decision. From our outside perspective, we can only give our own opinions on whether a player's combined upside/downside is worth the investment.

IMO, the Seahawks have made very few decisions with a bad process. For me, the only bad process I can think of immediately was Charlie Whitehurst. They gave up roughly twice as much draft resources and twice as much money to acquire Whitehurst and they did to draft Russell Wilson. Whitehurst had been in the league four years and not shown a hint of promise or ambition or skill, but John Schneider couldn't shake a memory of watching Whitehurst throw a few passes in the rain many years before. Bad process, bad result. Lesson learned.

Every other mistake Seattle made, I could argue for the process:

Matt Flynn was thought to be a likely upgrade over Tjack, was signed to a "prove it" deal, and helped cover Seattle's trail in the third round of the 2012 draft. It didn't work out, but it didn't need to either. Seattle put some of their chips on Flynn, but not all of them.

Percy Harvin. Harvin was a player where the unknown would loom large. Everyone knew the risk he brought, but making a risky decision isn't in itself a bad process. It was impossible to know how he'd gel in the locker room, and unfortunately, it became a dealbreaker. Health luck was also unkind to Seattle as well.

Graham / Unger. JS believed in Patrick Lewis. Unfortunately, Tom Cable did not. That right there was where this deal hit the rocks. However, just because a succession plan at center ended up hitting speed bumps at a later time does not make the Graham / Unger trade a bad process. Had they simply believed in Lewis all along, and if not for some bad injury luck to Graham, I doubt we even talk about this trade as a bad thing today. It took some time for the team and Graham to adjust to each other, and it looked like they finally did just that right before Graham suffered his injury.

Cary Williams. Williams was basically a repeat of the same process as Brandon Browner, but with more money being involved. Nobody could have forseen the ripple effect it would cause in the locker room, despite Cary Williams staying on good behavior by all accounts. Ultimately the lesson of Cary Williams wasn't Williams himself, but about the LOB.
 
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TwistedHusky

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If I was doing the decision support model for this team there are two different pathways I would take.

Goals for Draft Eval:

The end goal of the draft eval process is clearly to get the higher level of malleable talent, or the higher level of talent (physical attributes + measurables) to the cost. Skill clearly is not highly valued and in fact is a component that negatively impacts the ability to get high value from a pick (since most of the other teams are searching for skill 1st, talent 2nd. Clearly there is some weighting going on for areas of immediate or projected need, but it looks like the team also highly values physically gifted players that can be dropped into a system, take time to mold, and provide you the "game changers" you need.

Draft eval scoring then is likely primarily about maximizing aggregation of high scoring physical attributes that are relevant to projected success.

(We built something like this by the way)

Goal for FA eval:
The end goal of the FA eval process is, or should be immediate application of existing skills & abilities to an immediate need. Talent becomes secondary if not tertiary, to both production (in context or modified to represented reasonable expected production) and professional conduct (ie work ethic, ability to work with groups, ability to run with new information, effort in weight room + practice field, etc.). Talent is less factor since we already know how the application of these physical gifts are represented on the field - we don't need to look at the #s and make guess. Nor should we.

For FAs, we want to measure production vs cost, and apply that # to both internal alternatives and external alternatives. Secondarily, we want to score skill attributes and attributes of professional engagement or improvement activity. Is the player good? Can they fill the hole we need at a reasonable cost? Will they still be able to improve or maintain productivity enough to justify the dip in production when anyone joins a new org?

We can see from the very beginning that there are two very different models we would have to use because the key components are almost inverse in importance. For drafts, we want to measure physical ability and elements of mental focus/ability.

For Draft picks: Talent is #1, Skill a pronounced #3, if not lower.
For FAs: Production (in context) should be #1, #2 cost/risk factors, #3 skill (since that weights skill twice as production is a function of skill, productivity of the system and opportunities) - talent almost falls off the page at this point.

Now we could get on mindmeister or something I likely jointly cobble together a mindmap of not only the factors that need to be considered but the relative importance of those factors for specific circumstances. I think it is clear that given the primary core goals for both activities are radically different, it is very very likely the decision process maps and decision maps should be - but given both the outcomes AND the consistent underweighting of factors that bite us in the rear....it smells like they are using very similar processes for both activities. Essentially doing the "Player Eval is Player Eval, we know how to pick good corners so picking a good corner in FA is doable" kind of approach.

The Seahawk approach seems very different from most FO actions in that it assumes a certain amount of failure. Instead of looking at each pick to minimize risk and maximize utility - we clearly look at picks as a collection, taking a highest aggregate talent approach and then get a great return because when you work the #s, and you use a good system, usually you can make it work out for you. I learned this investing in commodities contracts as a kid - but ultimately, like a professional gambler, if you give yourself good odds, great returns when you win, and limit costs on losses....you come out ahead.

The problem with FAs is that you get one spin, so just maximizing aggregate ability won't work. Because guys that don't work out still count $5M against the cap. Whereas you run 3 4th round picks through, 2 don't make it but 1 becomes an all star - you are a genius.

More importantly, as someone pointed out FAs are not replaceable cogs. They are people moving into a new organization that may or may not accept them. Very different from draft picks who have sort of built in acceptance processes. More importantly, they come with their own experiences & biases, so they might resist an established system - especially when they have beliefs (often valid) about their own productivity based on what they did elsewhere. So now, any FA has both a failure factor built in and a chance of disrupting equilibrium in your own org. The higher their own perceived value, the more likely this is to be a factor.

All of this points to the likelihood that the team must use FA sparingly, and avoid high cost FAs unless the value to cost is massive. But the consistent problems with FA eval or "bad outcomes" with them, still smells very much like they are using a very similar approach in FA eval that they use in draft eval. This appears to be the root of a problem that might have cost us at least one SB victory, maybe even a trip this year (you have to get crazy here but with Unger in, what is the chance a guy rushing in unblocked causes Rawls to turn around, which flips the defender on his back snapping his ankle....I get that so much else could have changed but I absolutely believe that if we had Rawls we win that Carolina game).

It doesn't mean we have to change our draft process and eval models (which I agree with, I think the race to minimize risk kills opportunity often and am glad the Seahawks focus more on value instead of the chance of failure) but we should at least eval if the high $ FAs need a separate model.

I think they do.

The key will be making the changes so you can still id the undervalued physical talents so you don't miss on the Lynch, Avirl and Bennetts they hit on. But there is a pivot point at which you have to use a different lens because what works at lower $ kills you at higher $$$. That said, I get there is constant pressure on the FO to consistently upgrade talent because it gets siphoned away, just not sure putting all your eggs into this big signing or that big signing is the best response to that impact.
 

Scottemojo

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@kip. Whitehurst was horrid. I think Pete knew it from the first moment he saw the guy practice.

But Flynn was, in a way, genius. Not only did it cover the pick of Wilson, Wilson beating out a moderately priced Flynn labeled somehow by the media as a big dollar signing established (what should have already been established by getting rid of Curry for Wright) that Pete's competition was not a slogan. I think Pete proved it easily in year one, but the league is slow to recognize truth. Russ made free agents respect the Seattle motto as more than words.

A phrase John uses is tilt the field. I think John(at the college level) and Pete (at the spring practice level) knew Russ tilted the field the very early. I think they stacked the deck against Russell early on, to see how he would react. But when he was clearly the guy in preseason, they stacked the deck against Flynn. Who then flinched first. I still think the sore elbow was mostly Pete isolating Flynn. Pete is not a dick, well not for the sake of dickishness anyway, but I don't think he has much respect for those that whither in the face of competition either.

Not every veteran they have sought is a bust. The OP may rail on Graham, but Lynch was acquired in a trade. So was Clemons. Avril and Bennet, Rubin, among others, have been good free agent signings. Complaining about a lack of ability to produce with free agents and NFL vets is silly.
 

Sgt Largent

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Scottemojo":16levupl said:
Pete has been true to competition, for the most part.
and sometimes in a competition, the losers become pretty plain to see. calling them boneheaded feels overly critical to me.

Cary Williams for instance. Did it work? Nope. But then again, had they tried to take a veteran player who fit the CB profile they have here in Seattle and make him a cover 3 press corner before? Nope. And I doubt they will try it again. Doing it repeatedly will be boneheaded, doing it once is the learning process.

Though while here I am criticizing the use of the word boneheaded, I have called the lack of a solid plan at center "hubris" a bunch of times this year. Thinking Nowak could play from day one was to me as big a mistake as signing Harvin. One mistake threatened team chemistry off the field and was more than our playcaller could manage on the field, the other was dangerous to the health and evolution of our QB. In fact, by that standard, the Nowak decision was a bigger mistake than the Harvin deal.

But the front office moved on from both mistakes fairly quickly, and lightning fast by NFL standards. Which cannot be overstated as a very awesome thing. Admitting mistakes is one of the most common NFL hindrances to team progress.

I still am not a big fan of the Graham trade, but I understand it. The plan to have superior athletes at all positions on the line is one I still do not get. I get the theory, don't misunderstand me there, I just don't get the practical application. Good linemen communicate well, have intuition as a strength, good centers are a second set of eyes for the QB, and this plan to be uber athletic at the OL seems to ignore those qualities over a love of combine numbers and aggression. Which is why I call it hubris. If in two years Sokoli is kicking ass at center I will regret my words, but I really kind of doubt it happens.

I especially agree with the bolded above. Due to our zone blocking principles Cable is obsessed with "athletes" that can move and perform at the second level. So much so in fact, he seems to have forgotten that guys have to be able to perform at the first level as well (I.E. we could use some interior guys with a little more "ass" on 'em).

To me, it is simply inexcuseable that we have interior lineman that give ground like they are blocking an edge rusher. I mean, our center/guards are routinely 5 to 6 yds into the backfield within 2 seconds of the snap facing nothing more than a bull rush. This means Wilson has to give more ground to try and escape on the edge. He can't step up and under the edge rushers. That's an impossible scenario for Tackles who are trained to allow edge rushers as much vertical ground as they want, without relinquishing inside position.

So here's a Tackle running along with his edge rusher thinking "Man this fool is running right past the pocket and I have him dead to rights", only to be horrified as Wilson is forced to try and escape over the top, thereby putting the Tackle on the wrong side of the Defender/Blocker/QB triumverate. Right= DEF<OL<QB Wrong= :shock: L<DEF<QB

To compound the matter, with a QB like ours (a bit undersized but lightning quick/elusive), multiple bodied middle pressure is his kryptonite, while individual edge pressure he can quite often defeat with his legs. Shoot, he's so good at defeating individual pressure that we've seen him beat A gap blitz schemes even with our garbage inside play and make it seem almost effortless.

All too often we have to witness Wilson escape a Wall of Mayhem that's unfair for even him to be consistently successful. I don't think we need to unretire Hutchinson and Jones, we just need to get to the point that when there is pressure, it's Wilson and a single Defender in space. Give me that and I'll take Wilson every time.
 

Sgt Largent

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With regard to FA in general, I'm not sure why so many are lumping Harvin and Graham in with the other riffraff.

Carroll made it very clear he believes in the uncommon player. Transcendent ability so to speak.

While they may recalibrate their sensors on choices like Whitehurst and Williams, I think we all need to get used to the idea that with Pete in charge, "Unique" or "Uncommon" players will always be worth a 1st/and some change and/or an occasionally injured quality Center, circumstance and risk be damned.

Personally, the jury is still out for me on whether I am on board. Early returns aren't as promising as I'd like.
 

jammerhawk

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mrt144":2v5wp5rq said:
Hawks46":2v5wp5rq said:
jammerhawk":2v5wp5rq said:
mrt144":2v5wp5rq said:
I doubt anybody really knew how much of a head case Percy was until they saw him here and had to deal with his wonderfulness. i think they got rid of him well w/o it costing them more than it could have cost.

For sure if you look back at the transaction it was a major mistake but it was truly a swing for the fences deal and there were the very few magic moments when he played for the Hawks that Percy flashed that uber athletic skill that was the reason for the team acquiring him. I remember the game where he scored 3 times in a row to have all three scores called back b/c someone held or false started. When Percy wanted to play and was healthy he was special, unfortunately those 2 things rarely happened.

This FO is without a doubt the best ever for the Seahawks and they have made a great deal more positive personnel moves than they have failed. The team is universally regarded as being well built around the league. You don't make an omelette w/o breaking some eggs. They've made some mistakes but are quick to move on when they recognize they have. I think they are doing it better than it's ever been done before.

This is a good point. They knew Percy had some issues, but I theorize that they thought they could handle it with a strong locker room full of guys that were very competitive. The knock on Harvin was that he was tired of losing and he called out his team mates that didn't perform well. Put in an environment that wasn't stifling and full of guys that were full on competing, I think that Pete thought it would change his outlook and turn Harvin's attitude around.

The other thing about this pick that people are missing is that it was a luxury pick. We were a loaded team, picking a player with a known hip issue that was going to miss time. They knew they could win without him, but were looking for him to put our offense over the top. It's a shame we burned a 1st rounder on it, but the fact is that it was a luxury pick. Our team was already loaded across the board.

The problem is that the downside risk in salary wasn't properly accounted for. The Graham trade is an indication that the FO saw some of that. But some of it was driven explicitly by the salary wake of Percy.

MRT I disagree on the finances, and think the team was conned by a seriously personality disordered individual.

I have a friend who is heavily involved with the Hawks in a community sense and who in part runs one of the biggest tailgate operations in town with a lot of support from the team. He is very connected to past players Kreig, Largent, Zorn, Jacob Green amongst others who show up at the tailgate periodically occasionally along with family of present players like Mama Lynch, Mama Sherman. From everything he has reported to me the team was completely surprised at how odd Percy was, and how he failed to opt in to team pursuits while becoming a locker room distraction and problem.

There were also apparently lots of efforts made to get him co-opted into being a team player which failed. when it became clear he was putting himself above the team he was gone quickly. At first they knew they'd need to be patient with Percy b/c of his hip, and he'd gotten paid so he was happy, he allegedly wanted to be in Seattle. The team was excited by the prospect of having a potential player off the year presence on the roster. However, when the health excuse was gone the problems really started and worsened, he became an increasing distraction b/c he was unwilling to not be a selfish player, and additionally became a locker room divisive presence instead of the star athletic player expected. The team quickly cut bait and he was gone, realizing this experiment was a failure. I can't see it is at all reasonable to remotely consider graham in the same light as Harvin.

There is little doubt the team failed to effectively incorporate Harvin into a scheme that wasn't about Percy all the time. I frankly suspect there is a lot of blame that can be directed at Bevell in this regard, but most of it was on Harvin who only played when 'Percy' wanted to play. For sure it so far is likely the biggest personnel mistake of this regime, but the reasons for acquiring Harvin were apparent occasionally on the field when he could take over a game. The thing is that the league's discard pile is full of uber talented players who could have been much more than they were if they could only have focused upon being a genuine team player instead of self absorbed head case doorknobs. The cost of dealing with his off field issues was simply too high and the team was not getting value from him b/c he had reverted to 'Percy' form. I don't think the team knew what a head case they had acquired until well after the acquisition.
 

purpleneer

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KiwiHawk":1usg560q said:
I'll chime in to try to shed some light since TH is really not getting the concept.

The decision is made prior to testing the result of the decision which then leads to an outcome.

I like to use the Amahn Green example. He was a promising player who had bigtime fumbling problems while he was a Seahawk. The Seahawks had Alexander and Watters on the roster at the time. The Seahawks needed help in the defensive secondary, and Green Bay offered CB Fred Vinson, a 2nd-round pick in '99. They made the decision to trade Green to Green Bay.

Was this a stupid decision? Don't examine anything after the fact - just look at the circumstances as of the time of the trade and determine if, with all available knowledge, it was a smart or dumb decision. Given two backs scheduled to start ahead of Green, Green was expendable, and we needed a corner, so it seems like a fine deal for both teams.

Subsequently - this being "testing the result of the decision", Amahn Green tore up the record books in Green Bay, while Vinson tore an ACL in a pickup basketball game and never played for the Seahawks.

It was a terrible outcome.

This is a perfect example of the decision being sound but the outcome bad.

With regard to Williams, he had shown promise, but didn't do well in Philly. Anyone who has anything to do with judging secondary players knows that cornerbacks look fantastic when paired with a brilliant safety. When Ed Reed was drafted, both the Miami corners were drafted high and neither of them amounted to anything - Reed made them look good. Williams also looked good with Reed. Not so good without Reed, but hey, Seattle has Thomas, so he should look good again. Keep in mind our coach has a fundamental belief that he can bring out the best in players.

So on that basis, the decision looks sound.

The outcome wasn't good, however. But that's the outcome, which can be judged in hindsight, not the decision, which can only be assessed given the available information at the time of the decision.

If it makes you feel any better, teams have been signing our cornerbacks away from us for years and all of them pretty much fade into obscurity once they leave Seattle. It happens. This time it happened to us. Credit the front office for making the decision to move on instead of waiting longer for him to come right.
Your memory of the Ahman Green deal is waaay off. He was traded before Alexander was drafted and did not come with anything, but in fact a token drop in draft position (5th for 6th); it was truly a player dump as Vinson was never seen as much of an asset.
To me Adrian Beltre is a better example. His production in Seattle was disappointing, but would likely have been much better if other decisions were made better (likely properly judging Sexson and Delgado). What they got made it look like Beltre's deal was a poor decision, when it really wasn't.
Specifically on Cary Williams, it was a moderate-risk shot to cover a vital spot where a hole will always be exposed, forced by the abnormal stretch of losses and question marks there due to FA, injuries and suspension risks. It's not like there was truly a good alternative there; most of those suggested were just cheaper guys with much less chance to succeed for the Hawks and zero long-term value.
 

kearly

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Scottemojo":29dgfmvg said:
But Flynn was, in a way, genius. Not only did it cover the pick of Wilson, Wilson beating out a moderately priced Flynn labeled somehow by the media as a big dollar signing established (what should have already been established by getting rid of Curry for Wright) that Pete's competition was not a slogan. I think Pete proved it easily in year one, but the league is slow to recognize truth. Russ made free agents respect the Seattle motto as more than words.

Even at .net, a majority of posters thought the QB competition was a sham and that Russell had no shot to start as a rookie over Flynn. Money was often cited as a reason. Rob and I were two of the few voices that said Russell was a huge contender for the job before August, but there were not many others who saw it that way. Point being, even most Seahawks fans and Seahawks media fell for it.

I like your point about competition. Getting players to believe they have a chance is huge and that move solidified said belief.

The year after, many other teams started pursuing QB competition strategies.
 

Allweatherfan

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With the emergence of Lockett we can afford to move Paul Richardson to LT.... championship
 

Hawks46

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TwistedHusky":iz8cjzvy said:
It should be noted that it sounds like I am saying don't take risks with FAs.

Not the case. I am saying if you are going to take a risk, be compensated for taking that risk.
The Seahawks often don't in their FA deals.

Don't pay full price for something broken on the off chance that it might be fixed. Pay a discounted price for something broken only when you have a reasonable expectation you can fix it, a plan/means for doing so, a good chance at success and a payoff that warrants the risk.

Or take a flyer and buy broken on the cheap, projecting a certain % will work out. But don't buy broken at the same rates as productive. And be aware that even productive is dependent on the framework/system + process you use with the resource.

And for God's sake be aware that putting broken things into a working system can often break other things!

None of this seems to go into the FA eval, we seem to negotiate with FAs as if upside was the same as projected production.

It isn't.

Every risk has some consequence. It's almost like you're saying "take the risk, but make sure there's no downside", which is ridiculous. Was the Williams decision a bad one ? Yes, but they likely made it with some information we don't have.

Every player move is a calculated risk. Unger missed time for 3 consecutive season with us, then goes on to have a fully healthy season with NO. There's no way you can control that.

Every draft pick you make is a calculated risk. Picking Sherman in the 5th round could be a "boneheaded" move if he flopped badly, then we'd be hearing whining about a wasted 5th round draft pick.

I don't even get what you're arguing about any more. Yes, there were some bad picks, but in the Williams case, there is no dead money that I'm aware of, so they ripped the bandaid off and moved on. Because that's what he was, a bandaid. There wasn't much else out there in FA. You had Peanut Tillman, who was like 40 years old, and an injury risk. It's surprising he made it almost the entire season, but it was a risk the Panthers took. They can't count on Simon to stay on the field so this is what they did.

You have valid points, but it's almost like you're complaining to complain. Yes, it was a bad decision, but I don't see how it specifically effects any decisions they make this year on individual players.
 
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TwistedHusky

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Not sure if you did not bother to read the admittedly long explanations, if you just skimmed it and missed the meat, or just do not get it.

I will try to make this simpler.

The FA process and the draft process have completely different objectives. But the nature of our signings in FA show that we seem to be using a very similar weighting/scoring system to id free agents vs draft picks.

Our existing process works tremendously well for draft picks, but depends upon there being a collection of picks to work, as it still is a play on the percentages.

Unfortunately, due to the cost benefit curves being radically different for high dollar FAs, FAs that are high cost are going to, more often than not, be either disappointments or wasted spend - perhaps both.

Now, you could quibble that Bennet and Avril were close to high cost FAs, I would say they are on the border and they were from less visible brands (which you pay a premium for). For example a Seahawk defender, because they come from a great defense, is going to get a premium added to them vs a New Orleans defender.

Maybe you argue that we got Lynch, Avril & Bennett from this approach (and guys like MacDonald) but I would argue that the goal of the team to get to the window is very different than the goal of the team in the window. We can debate that, but regardless, after a while - if a process that got you some good wins just ends up with a string of losses...it is time to re-eval the process.

Using this approach for FAs just puts you in a position to pay too much for FAs and paying too much for FAs, as well as overestimating their productivity.

I would also argue that there was PLENTY of data about Harvin AND about CJ, both in how they would likely conduct themselves and some of the red flags that existed before the trade. That was data I had, you likely had, so pretty sure the team had it. If the other data 'we are not privy to" materially changed the eval score - then the eval process is flawed because the very reasons the teams that had CJ wanted to throw a party when he left...are the very reasons he did not work out here.

It wasn't just a risk, it was a bad risk. If it worked out, great. But there was little to no data that indicated it would work out. Which means they either have a flawed process or they failed to listen to their own process (which happens, remember the Browns originally were told to draft Carr and they drafted Captain Tequila Swan instead).

At issue, is the process we used help us get to and win one SB, but the FA failures in recent years (repeatedly) have also likely cost us at least one more SB win, and almost certainly a deeper run in the playoffs this year.

TLDR all the messages

The FA eval process for higher priced FAs appears to be broken or terrible.

While the FA process seemed to work years ago, it has resulted in a string of losses and misteps that hurt the team's chances moving forward. Considering the cost, risk and negligible impact, this team is better off trying to fill holes with 2nd and 3rd tier free agents to fill immediate emergency needs, and build through the draft otherwise.

Misses on the higher priced FAs have costs that affect productivity, impact organization cohesion and often result in us losing productive effective players we KNOW work in our system - because the cap is constrained by the salary dollars lost to bad bets on the higher priced FAs.

Taking a risk is fine but they need to stay the hell away from high priced FAs, or even 1st tier TAs because the production received is very unlikely to be worth the cost.
 

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