This place is toxic

[Maelstrom787]

That’s a third of the league and you’re using a part of the super team in that arbitrary year. Why not use 2017? It gets even worse.

I was using 2015 because it's when people usually say this whole thing fell apart. You'll see a lot of reference to "9 years" and "since SB49." It wasn't arbitrary, it was just from a different perspective. With that said, yes, it is worse since 2017 - although we do have a good few appearances, at the least, and did come close to getting into that NFCCG in 2019.

I'm not trying to fudge the numbers. I'm after solid, foundational logic here and misinformation/misleading arguments don't serve anyone.

I don’t think Pete is trying to destroy the team out of malice so not sure why you said that. I think Pete is working his ass off to make this team better and doing the best he can. It just has been a mixed bag of results

I'm not saying that you said that. I'm defending/expanding upon the thought from my own post from earlier, the one that started our exchange.

 

[ZagHawk]

They're just as annoying as the haters. This weird polarization where nobody is remotely in the middle is the issue. There is a lot of nuance to the position the franchise is in, and the largest camps are "Everything is fine!" vs. "I hope the front office and coaching staff gets thrown into a volcano." Neither are rational or correct.

It's hard to talk meat-and-potatoes football when there's so much outsized emotion dictating everything we think.

You are very correct here. I think that is going on A LOT in our world. If you're not 100% one way or another it MUST mean you're 100% on the other side. The world isn't black and white it's grey, may need to make a black/white decision, but it's not that simple.

 

[49fansinceBrodie]

When your team is doing good your body generates mood lifting substances like dopamine and endorphins, when it bad you get cortisol (a stress related hormone) and reduced serotonin. So would you expect a junky to say good things about his dealer if the product wasn't up to snuff or not available?

 

[knownone]

Rationality has nothing to do with the relative polarity or nuance of opinion. Whether extreme or moderate, an opinion is rational as long as it's based on logical reasoning, coherent argumentation, and evidence.

That is important to consider for two reasons: A) the toxicity present on this forum exists primarily as an extension of labeling others, and B) people making arguments against generalizations rather than that specific individual's argument. Most people don't mind encountering opinions they disagree with. However, nothing is worse than someone arguing against something you haven't written while simultaneously expecting you to defend beliefs you don't hold and have never stated. I've read so many arguments here where both sides of an argument are doing this. It's absurd.

Here's my solution: We should encourage diverse opinions, whether nuanced or not. We should stop projecting emotions onto others and throwing convenient labels onto everyone who says anything remotely positive or negative about X, Y, and Z. Generalizations are the death of meaningful argument. More importantly, telling others they are emotional is an ad hominem that says more about you than the person/group you are arguing against. Stop that s***. It's embarrassing. Avoid doing those two things; this place will be significantly less toxic.

 

[themunn]

That’s a third of the league and you’re using a part of the super team in that arbitrary year. Why not use 2017? It gets even worse. I don’t think Pete is trying to destroy the team out of malice so not sure why you said that. I think Pete is working his ass off to make this team better and doing the best he can. It just has been a mixed bag of results

We won 10, 11 then 12 games in 2018, 2019 and 2020. How is that getting worse?

2021 clearly we took a step back, due a number of factors including an injured starting QB. But 2022 we got better. This year is a bit of a strange one - I don't think we've gotten worse, perhaps we've stagnated but we've certainly played a tougher schedule this year than last and in my view accounted ourselves well enough to win bar the Ravens game, first half of the Niners game and second half of the first Rams game.

The Niners are a good comp really because they were good and superbowl contenders same time as us in 2011-2013, but then went 8-8 before having 4 seasons with a combined total 17 wins. That allowed them to load up a lot of talented players onto the roster and now they're among the top teams in the league, although they still haven't won the big one.

There are fans here that ask why we can't be like the Niners and sack our coach and bring someone new in, even though Shanahan only won 10 games across his first 2 seasons as well. They think that we bring in a new coach and dump Pete that all of a sudden we'll be a 13 win team as well. They're certainly not prepared for a 2-4 season streak of losing seasons and missing the play-offs, because we've been spoiled with winning a minimum of 7 games in every year Pete has been the coach here (reminder - the Niners went 4 years winning no more than 6 between 2015-2018), and just 3 seasons where we missed the playoffs entirely. That's the same number of losing seasons and missed play-offs that the Niners have had in half as many seasons under Shanahan.

 

[pittpnthrs]

They're certainly not prepared for a 2-4 season streak of losing seasons and missing the play-offs,

I am if that's what it takes. This team isn't going to go anywhere under Pete Carroll anymore. It just isn't. It's time for change whether good or bad.

 

[Ozzy]

We won 10, 11 then 12 games in 2018, 2019 and 2020. How is that getting worse?

2021 clearly we took a step back, due a number of factors including an injured starting QB. But 2022 we got better. This year is a bit of a strange one - I don't think we've gotten worse, perhaps we've stagnated but we've certainly played a tougher schedule this year than last and in my view accounted ourselves well enough to win bar the Ravens game, first half of the Niners game and second half of the first Rams game.

The Niners are a good comp really because they were good and superbowl contenders same time as us in 2011-2013, but then went 8-8 before having 4 seasons with a combined total 17 wins. That allowed them to load up a lot of talented players onto the roster and now they're among the top teams in the league, although they still haven't won the big one.

There are fans here that ask why we can't be like the Niners and sack our coach and bring someone new in, even though Shanahan only won 10 games across his first 2 seasons as well. They think that we bring in a new coach and dump Pete that all of a sudden we'll be a 13 win team as well. They're certainly not prepared for a 2-4 season streak of losing seasons and missing the play-offs, because we've been spoiled with winning a minimum of 7 games in every year Pete has been the coach here (reminder - the Niners went 4 years winning no more than 6 between 2015-2018), and just 3 seasons where we missed the playoffs entirely. That's the same number of losing seasons and missed play-offs that the Niners have had in half as many seasons under Shanahan.

I didn’t say record wise and I was argue those teams had Wilson. We’ve invested a ton into a defense only to see it get worse. We were talking about the defense and the lack of playoff success as well.

We’ve played one of the easier schedules in the league to date so I don’t agree with that comment either.

But no one is saying Pete is a bad coach, he’s a hall of famer. I would argue is sort of like Pittsburg. Tomlin wins every year but most people believe they probably need a change as it’s just gotten stagnant there. For me Pete in his 70’s is probably still a hell of a coach but a little stuck in his ways and maybe of no fault of his own in some regards is stagnant here. I don’t want to get into all the areas I think he struggles in but they seem to be getting worse as time goes on. McCarthy was a winner in GB but got stagnant there and they seem heading in the right direction. NE had the best coach of all time and I would argue it may be time for a change there as well.

 

[scutterhawk]

Again your last sentence is the only one I have a problem with. You frame it as "if anyone is ready for a change they're unreasonable" It's ok to think it might be time for a coaching change. that doesn't mean those people are crazy, stupid etc. I do agree that some of the extreme language is goofy and unreasonable but thinking a coaching change at this point might be the best alternative? Nah and its a strawman to broad brush people who think that against the backdrop that your stance is the only reasonable one.


I think it's time for a change but I also understand the other side of it and people being hesitant.

LOL You mean like the "Strawman" you want to see replacing Pete Carroll?
I'm in no hurry to make mistakes.
Denver -> Hackett? and don't think it's impossible that we go from the frying pan right into the SAME kind of fire.
PARITY.

 

[ZagHawk]

I am if that's what it takes. This team isn't going to go anywhere under Pete Carroll anymore. It just isn't. It's time for change whether good or bad.

what's interesting is...there's a lot of rumors over Belichick getting fired this year and under his reign how many SB wins did the Patriots get...yes, they had Brady but Belichick was still coaching. Pete does not have near the same accolades as BB, yet saying perhaps its time for the Seahawks to move on is still blasphemy to quite a few people.

 

[pittpnthrs]

LOL You mean like the "Strawman" you want to see replacing Pete Carroll?
I'm in no hurry to make mistakes.
Denver -> Hackett? and don't think it's impossible that we go from the frying pan right into the SAME kind of fire.
PARITY.

Scutter, how long do you want to stick with the current situation just because it feels like a "safe place" to be in? A "safe place" in which the team is a constant pretender that can't advance in the post season if they even make the post season. Why are you convinced a coaching change would be a mistake? Why no patience for a new coach to try and sort things out when you have been waiting patiently for Pete to do so going on 9 years now?

Hackett? They saw the folly of their ways and cut ties with him before the season even ended and in just a short time after, the Broncos are playing spirited ball and beating teams they have no business beating. Don't be afraid of change, it can be good.

 

[fire_marshall_bill]

Not sure what the o.p. expects after losing four of five

people are upset and critical and rightfully so

it can be a bit much at times, but mostly it's warranted

He reminds me of the Facebook homers who call anyone critical bandwagon/fairweather, stupid, crybaby etc.

Then they feel the need to assert that they're the real FAN.

 

[ZagHawk]

Not sure what the o.p. expects after losing four of five

people are upset and critical and rightfully so

it can be a bit much at times, but mostly it's warranted

He reminds me of the Facebook homers who call anyone critical bandwagon/fairweather, stupid, crybaby etc.

Then they feel the need to assert that they're the real FAN.

It actually takes a very dedicated fan to stick by a team...even when you DO NOT believe in them...