Tom Cable Stats (No WR over 1k yards under ZBS)

[Scottemojo]

This specific thread is only about Tom Cable's system I added the notation of the Raiders in there because I believe they are still using Tom's foundation over there, please correct me if I am wrong.

Don't forget when Wilson is in the hurry offense he puts up massive yards compared to Tarvaris in it. Better QB, better leading offense, Papa Johns.

Is the playcalling for Harvin's Bevell fault, how come he was able to use him all over the place during his Viking years but couldn't do it here, could it be that Pete limited Harvin to those short route roles knowing that they were trying too hard not to get him injured. When Harvin did get more of that role in the Jet's offense he got injured?

I agree with you on some points, Cable's o-line is a heavy clock chewing full tilt rushing team, his system has to have more rushing to be successful. There are other teams out there that uses ZBS but they pass more and their strengths on the o-line is better for pass protection. Then there is the Dallas O-linemen which started to be really good at both (Why can't we get/draft guys that are great at both?). Even our passing play is slow developing deep bombs just like Pete said he uses the run to set out the Deep routes, but we don't have much of a deep threat in Kearse, Sidney was money for us when he was healthy.

If you look at our roster our guys are damn good at run blocking, but how much credit do you give to them when Marshawn have crazy YAC every season, and with Wilson it looks even much better. If we took away Marshawn's YAC and the threat of Wilson, then we might not even have a great rushing team.

Tom Cable
Year - Attemps passing - Attempts rushing
2006 - 416 - 537
2007 - 451 - 508
2008 - 421 - 459
2009 - 485 - 410
2010 - 491 - 504
2011 - 509 - 444 Tarvaris Year
2012 - 405 - 536
2013 - 420 - 509
2014 - 454 - 525

I agree for 2011 with Tarvaris they threw way too much, but it was a turning point it helped the team found it's identity and by half of the season they went 5-3, the problem was Tarvaris was injured and he was throwing INT like nobody's business.

Darrell Bevell
Year - Attempts Passing - Attempts Rushing - Win/Lose
2006 - 540 - 530 - 6/10
2007 - 432 - 494 - 8/8
2008 - 452 - 444 - 10/6
2009 - 553 - 548 - 12-4 * Sidney Rice 121 Targets came down with 83 of em for 1312 yards
2010 - 505 - 503 - 6/10

While checking something else look at what I've found for Bevell, he only produce 1 WR as a 1k yarder. It shows that having Bevell and Cable pretty much limits us to having that 1k yarder. As some speculated that he might misuse Graham, and that is a possibility but it also shows with a good QB in 2009 he can make someone produce those yards, but it looks like it will have to be a faster pace offense.

Since Cable left Oakland, they left the zone system, then went back to it.

As far as Wilson excelling when in the hurry up, yes he has. He also has a lot more autonomy when in the hurry up, and he rarely runs it anywhere but the 4 minute offense. Tarvaris was in it all game long, and Bevell was calling the plays.

 

[Tical21]

I'm with Jimmy. I think Cable, who has never called plays at the NFL level, has just about zero to do with this, and the blocking scheme that he teaches in the running game has even less to do with it. If I were to make a pie chart, Carroll would be 40%, Lynch would be 30%, WR talent would be 15%, and working with a young QB would be 15%.

Was he supposed to have a 1,000 yard receiver during the Jamarcus Russell/Charlie Frye era?

 

[Anthony!]

A few things that some of us are forgetting is, about half of Wilsons runs were not by design. He was forced to run because of lack of time or no one getting open. That is about 50 attempts. Then add in another 20 throw aways that if he had time or people open he would have thrown. that is 70 more attempts. That would have given him 522 attempts and with his YPA at 7.69 that would equate to over 4000 yards and Baldwin probably is over 1k yards. All that without a #1 WR. I like DB and think he is a good WR but he is not a #1 and on some teams not even a #2. However for us he is a good #2, the problem is we do not have a #1, Graham is a Te not a WR. and the drop off from DB to Kearse is big. Kearse has made some big, great catches, but he has also dropped some big easy catches. Also on most good teams he is at best a #4. The system you all are talking about is correct, A lot of this issue is the system, but the system is the perfect system when you do not have a #1 wr, and are making do with a #2 and a bunch of #4s. Now we have Graham that will help hopefully we got a true #1 in the draft or Norwood, or Kearse, Matthews can become another #2. We can get by without a true #1 but to do that we need our other WRs to step up and become legit #2s, combined with Graham. We can do well with Db and another #2 as our starting WRs with Graham. We have seen what this offense can look like when they take the training wheels off, and keep the pedal to the mettle even when we are ahead, and it is something special. Given Lynch is a question make after every season of late I am hoping they will keep the training wheels off this year if they do and either we get a #1 wr or one of ours steps up this could be a great offense that will score a lot of points, even in the ZBS.

 

[Hawks46]

I love the thinking outside the box. But I think it is a bit of a stretch to try to show a relationship between the scheme your team uses to run block and the production of your wide receivers. There have been zone blocking teams that run a lot, and zone blocking teams that run very little. If you were to say that no player since Tom Cable has become a head coach has had 1000 yards receiving, that might be a bit easier to buy, although I am not sure that he has ever called plays.

I think Cable being a part of this is pure coincidence. It has much more to do with the ball control offenses that have been employed by the teams he has coached for, until recently the lack of a good quarterback, and the lack of #1 WR talent.

We're going to get way more production out of the TE position than we got last year. Also, another receiver besides Baldwin could break out a bit. I don't expect us to pass significantly more often than we did this year. When we ignored the run, we looked bad. Because of these factors, I think it more sensible to expect Baldwin's targets, catches and yards to be decreased, not increased. I don't see how we can get the TE position a lot more targets AND get Baldwin a lot more targets, without throwing the ball SIGNIFICANTLY more often. The math just doesn't make sense to me.

I like what you said here and agree, but the last paragraph you're saying we don't see how we can get the TE position any more targets, and the math doesn't make sense.

I personally think we're going to be better on 3rd down conversion %. That said, there's two ways we can get guys (not just Graham) more targets: Wilson's completion % going up (which I expect Graham to help with) and couple that with actually having more offensive snaps.

If we convert more on 3rd downs, we're going to have more offensive plays. Wilson will also target the TE position more in the Red Zone and on 3rd downs as that is Graham's forte. All while retaining our pass/rush ratio. We don't have to throw the ball more often to throw the ball more.

 

[kearly]

Which is why I fear how they will use, or misuse, Graham. In reality, I would trust Cable as our OC far more than Tom, when I see what the two of them did with Zach Miller in both Oakland and here the contrast is stark.

I can't comment too much on Oakland's OL from five years ago, but I think in Seattle that Zach Miller was a better isolated pass blocker than most of our OL. Given our propensity to look deep and enter a "bunker mentality" with protection as you put it, Zach Miller essentially morphed into a block-first TE, because the deep passing attack needed him a lot more as a blocker than as a route runner.

I think it was Miller's strength as a blocker that caused his production in Seattle to tank. And also because, from 2011-2013, our WR group was sneaky good. Miller was a focal point in Oakland's pass attack, but in Seattle he was a blocker who'd be change of pace in the passing attack. My point is, I think personnel differences dictated that choice as much as anything else. Probably.

Granted, Bevell has shown a maddening tendency to use even guys like Cooper Helfet and Luke Willson as blockers more than just once in a while. I guess I look at those decisions as being based on giving guys a chance to grow or seeing what the young guys have in them in real games. I think they have probably moved on from those guys as real blockers by now. Maybe I am being overly optimistic, but I think blocking TE will probably be a priority in this draft process and I can't help but think that Miller might be back as well since he's obviously quite cheap, and how bad can his ankle really be?

It's true, PC/JS and Bevell sometimes do dumb things every now and then. But trading a first round pick and a starting center for arguably the NFL's best pass catching TE, and then using that guy to block all the time despite him sucking at it, such a scenario is insulting to their intelligence to even suggest. If they use Graham the same way they used Miller, even the word incompetence wouldn't be enough to describe such a mental blunder.

Size and separation have been issues for our pass catchers. Graham offers those abilities. I'm fairly certain they acquired him for that reason, and by the time the season starts, I would be surprised if our roster forces him into a role where he has to pass block on more than about 15% of his snaps. I think he will remind us a lot more of 2010 Big Mike Williams than 2011-2013 Zach Miller.

I'm also not really worried about any difficulty scheming him. When Seattle traded for Harvin, they made it very clear that he was a different kind of player and that they'd have to change things to work him into the offense. It didn't go smoothly of course. Mistake learned. But I fail to see how Graham is the kind of player that you have to get creative with. With Graham there is no need for cute plays like the Jet sweep disasters Harvin forced upon our offense. No need to feed him the ball 10+ times every single game. Just look his way on 3rd downs and in the red zone, or those few times a game when he beats the pants off a LB in single coverage, and he'll earn his paychecks.

Graham isn't some complicated weapon. He's a size + speed guy. Unlike Harvin, Seattle went out of their way to tell everyone that their offense would stay the same with Graham. Meaning that Lynch will still be the focal point. The Saints were a run heavy team too, I just don't see this as being a very big shift for either Graham or Seattle, though obviously Graham's targets will probably drop by a pretty good percentage.

But I guess we'll see what happens. My guess is that we'll probably see a 2010 BMW type performance from Graham next year. A touch of inconsistency, but he'll come up big in big games and have more than a few Sportcenter worthy plays by the end of the year. He'll have a statline that will give Seattle good value per target, and that's all Seattle really needs. We would never want our passing offense to run through a single player, which is also why I am convinced Seattle is salivating over a few WRs early in next week's draft.

 

[Cyrus12]

This would appear to prove that Angry Doug is a legit #1 receiver.
So NYA, NYA, NYA all you haters. :141847_bnono:

Ahh no it does not and he is not.

agreed!

 

[Scottemojo]

Kip, I don't think they are dumb enough to try and use Graham as an inline blocker all the time. But force him the ball or be predictable with play action passing to him? Yeah, I can see that.

Time will tell. I have no desire to be right about this.

 

[kearly]

Kip, I don't think they are dumb enough to try and use Graham as an inline blocker all the time. But force him the ball or be predictable with play action passing to him? Yeah, I can see that.

Time will tell. I have no desire to be right about this.

I get what you are saying a lot better now. But still, I'm curious to know how many of Brees interceptions targeted Graham. Bigger guys tend to be safer targets. Wide catch radius, good hands. I think Brees reaction to Graham being traded really says it all to me. Guys like Graham are a QBs best friend. Remember how Russell GUSHED about Tony Gonzalez for over a year after that playoff loss?

One of the reasons I like this move is that Graham is the kind of player you can beat teams with even if they know what's coming. Seattle's offense is basically built around the idea of dictating mismatches and identifying them pre-snap, and this became increasingly evident late last season when guys like Willson and Matthews had huge games despite having iffy talent.

And that's pretty much exactly the kind of player Graham is, the ultimate mismatch maker. Miller is a fantastic player, but he was never a mismatch maker. Whereas you worry about predictability, I've accepted it. We were going to be predictable either way, so at least now we can aim to be the best predictable team in the NFL.

Additionally, I think Graham is going to be a feature in the offense moreso than the engine. I think we're going to see Seattle at least try to add a dangerous deep ball target at WR in this draft. The visit they gave to Chris Conley makes all the sense in the world to me, he's basically a bigger / faster Jermaine Kearse. I suspect the rumors about DGB are at least somewhat legit as well. Graham is here to dominate on certain downs and situations, but the bread and butter of the passing attack is always going to be deep red line throws to guys like Jermaine Kearse.

 

[Northwest Seahawk]

Kip, I don't think they are dumb enough to try and use Graham as an inline blocker all the time. But force him the ball or be predictable with play action passing to him? Yeah, I can see that.

Time will tell. I have no desire to be right about this.

I get what you are saying a lot better now. But still, I'm curious to know how many of Brees interceptions targeted Graham. Bigger guys tend to be safer targets. Wide catch radius, good hands. I think Brees reaction to Graham being traded really says it all to me. Guys like Graham are a QBs best friend. Remember how Russell GUSHED about Tony Gonzalez for over a year after that playoff loss?

One of the reasons I like this move is that Graham is the kind of player you can beat teams with even if they know what's coming. Seattle's offense is basically built around the idea of dictating mismatches and identifying them pre-snap, and this became increasingly evident late last season when guys like Willson and Matthews had huge games despite having iffy talent.

And that's pretty much exactly the kind of player Graham is, the ultimate mismatch maker. Miller is a fantastic player, but he was never a mismatch maker. Whereas you worry about predictability, I've accepted it. We were going to be predictable either way, so at least now we can aim to be the best predictable team in the NFL.

Additionally, I think Graham is going to be a feature in the offense moreso than the engine. I think we're going to see Seattle at least try to add a dangerous deep ball target at WR in this draft. The visit they gave to Chris Conley makes all the sense in the world to me, he's basically a bigger / faster Jermaine Kearse. I suspect the rumors about DGB are at least somewhat legit as well. Graham is here to dominate on certain downs and situations, but the bread and butter of the passing attack is always going to be deep red line throws to guys like Jermaine Kearse.

No TE that they have brought in has thrived in the passing game. I'm not skeptical that this will work, but there is some reasons for concern given that he's not much of a blocker and they use TE's in this offense to block more then they send them out in routes. I am optimistic that he will help in the redzone as for between the 20's we'll just have to wait and see how he fit's in this offense.

 

[Scottemojo]

Bevell doesn't like to tip his hand, so I have an idea for a formation (that I am sure Bevell already has in mind).

Goaline situation. Jumbo set, Fullback and RB, Graham alone out wide. Teams will have to choose between doubling Graham or trying to have one extra to stop Lynch. If they don't double Graham, throw it. Every Single. Time. If they double, run, you will have 9 blockers on 9 defenders, and the QB keeper will always be in play with Russ, which should freeze edge contain defenders. Should be the easiest multiple choice of Russell Wilson's life.

 

[rideaducati]

Bevell doesn't like to tip his hand, so I have an idea for a formation (that I am sure Bevell already has in mind).

Goaline situation. Jumbo set, Fullback and RB, Graham alone out wide. Teams will have to choose between doubling Graham or trying to have one extra to stop Lynch. If they don't double Graham, throw it. Every Single. Time. If they double, run, you will have 9 blockers on 9 defenders, and the QB keeper will always be in play with Russ, which should freeze edge contain defenders. Should be the easiest multiple choice of Russell Wilson's life.

I'd put Matthews out wide on the other side and throw the ball to whoever is not doubled.

 

[Scottemojo]

Bevell doesn't like to tip his hand, so I have an idea for a formation (that I am sure Bevell already has in mind).

Goaline situation. Jumbo set, Fullback and RB, Graham alone out wide. Teams will have to choose between doubling Graham or trying to have one extra to stop Lynch. If they don't double Graham, throw it. Every Single. Time. If they double, run, you will have 9 blockers on 9 defenders, and the QB keeper will always be in play with Russ, which should freeze edge contain defenders. Should be the easiest multiple choice of Russell Wilson's life.

I'd put Matthews out wide on the other side and throw the ball to whoever is not doubled.

Shit. The guy only had 4 catches last year.

JK, I like it.

 

[kearly]

Bevell doesn't like to tip his hand, so I have an idea for a formation (that I am sure Bevell already has in mind).

Goaline situation. Jumbo set, Fullback and RB, Graham alone out wide. Teams will have to choose between doubling Graham or trying to have one extra to stop Lynch. If they don't double Graham, throw it. Every Single. Time. If they double, run, you will have 9 blockers on 9 defenders, and the QB keeper will always be in play with Russ, which should freeze edge contain defenders. Should be the easiest multiple choice of Russell Wilson's life.

Good stuff. That's pretty much what I meant by them relying on presnap diagnosis and being predictable.

I don't think this move is going to make as huge a difference, but it kind of reminds me a bit of the Lakers acquiring Shaq. You don't need to get clever with a guy like that, you just need to get him the ball under the basket and he's usually going convert it into 2 points. Even if the other team knows it's coming, they are kind of helpless.

Of course, Graham is a lot easier to stop than Shaq. But I think the effect he creates, relative to the NFL, is similar.

I guess I just like the idea of getting "idiot proof" talents for a coaching staff that likes to win simple. Seattle tries to beat teams not with clever plays but with simple concepts to exploit pure talent differential. And really, we just lost a SB because our team tried to muscle a play to a fringe NFL player. I'm not saying it's the only reason the trade happened, but I do think having that play come down to Ricardo Lockette was a wake-up call for Pete.

I also think that deep down, what Pete really wants is to have a passing attack that can decoy for Lynch, instead of having Lynch decoy for the passing game.

 

[Tical21]

Anybody remember the first game Percy played for us, where he got loose on a scramble drill and Russell threw a lollipop way out in front of him and just about got him killed? That's my biggest fear for Jimmy Graham, is that Russell looks too him too much at times where it isn't smart to throw it to him. You know as soon as he flushes the pocket, Graham is going to be his first look more often than not. There will be some huge plays because of this, but I'm afraid of concussions and knee injuries too.

Because we have Marshawn Lynch, teams are going to use a LB on Graham more often than they did while he played for the Saints. He's going to see man coverage against a LB with a single-high safety dozens of times per game. Are we going to be able to exploit that?

Furthermore, if that single-high safety starts peeking at Graham and lurks around the middle of the field, we're going to have outside receivers 1-on-1 without any help over the top. Speaking to what Kearly was saying, it should be a deep threat's wet dream. The problem we have with this scenario though is that teams know we like to go deep on the outside, and we haven't developed the hitch or slant, or square-in game, so it is much easier for them to concentrate on not getting beat deep. Finally, in the Super Bowl, we hit a couple hitches, and they were wide open. My point is that Jimmy Graham keeping that safety in the middle of the field should make it significantly easier on our outside receivers.

 

[SalishHawkFan]

Kip, I don't think they are dumb enough to try and use Graham as an inline blocker all the time. But force him the ball or be predictable with play action passing to him? Yeah, I can see that.

Time will tell. I have no desire to be right about this.

I think he'll be to Wilson what BMW was to Hass.