Warren Moon: Seahawks still have a Super Bowl XLIX hangover

[oldhawkfan]

Super Bowl hangover? Take 2 aspirin, drink plenty of fluids and get over it!

 

[Sgt. Largent]

In summation, props to any player still pissed and boooooooooooo Bevell and the dolts that defended him. Whether he is a competant OC was only ever half the issue. Politically he was poison and Pete should have shitcanned that bozo .03 seconds after the interception.

It took 36 posts for someone to blame Bevell, you guys are losing your edge.

So let me get this straight, you encourage the players to still hold onto their grudges about the SB loss........as opposed to what would actually help us move on and become a cohesive team with great chemistry once again, letting it go and focusing on 2017.

 

[Hyak]

First off, the worst thing that Pete or John can do is react with moves based on what a player or players want. That's not how you run a business and their resume of success during their tenure speaks for itself.

Also, Sherman or other players not letting go doesn't make him any more of less desirable of wanting to win than the other players or coaches. They all wanted to win and letting go and moving on is not any barometer related to desire.

Also there's got to be a balance or statute of limitations on it because when it affects entirely different teams/seasons, it's on the player(s) to move on and focus on now. Sherman intentionally stoked the fire last year during the playoff race and created an unnecessary, non-productive distraction. Is it coincidental that the Seahawks followed up that game/crazy week with a defensive clunker and their only home loss that cost them the 2nd seed/bye?

The irony is that one gripe Sherman supposedly has with the offense (per the Wickersham piece) is the use of Jimmy Graham yet the play that set him off was a red zone pass from the 1 to .... you guessed it.....Jimmy Graham. He was pissed because it was nearly picked off. Conveniently, however, he ignored that the Seattle run game was bad and struggling in that specific game and that the near pick was totally on Wilson, not Bevell, as it was badly underthrown. The other irony is that the next play was a failed run and the 3rd and 1 play was a sweet TD pass to Baldwin.

As for legacies. I'd add that nothing will help reinforce the sabotage of a HOF caliber career more than harping on an issue and allowing it to affect future performance. How about focusing on the present and trying to win another one like a lot of other players/teams do? Regardless, I think the players in question with HOF caliber credentials are not affected by the outcome of that game. ET and Sherman are HOF players (unless Sherm TO's himself out of it). Lynch is borderline although Davis getting in increases his chances.

We can and have argued about the play call over the years and if anything it's not nearly as black and white in terms of just handing it off to Lynch. If you read the excerpt from Peter King on "the play", this idea that a Lynch run was such a no brainer is questionable.

We can all agree that the actual execution of the interception was a large factor in the end result. The failed pick on Butler, the route depth, the throw itself, and the opponent's execution by Browner and Butler.

I guarantee that many people would have been pissed if they had handed it off to Lynch and he was stuffed for a 2 yard loss or worse fumbled. Too predictable. Why run against that front? The end result was going to be crushing if it was a failure because it was sooo close and everyone could taste it. With that comes blame.

Now the blame game resonated IMO largely because of Marshawn's ever growing rift with the coaches/front office and whatever resentment he and others had against Wilson that permeated within the locker room. The very idea that the final play call was an intentional attempt to make Wilson the hero at the expense of Lynch is laughable and insulting to the coaches who have led a pretty successful run here BTW. This theory came out right after the game from the locker room and eventually from Marshawn himself. I believe that some in the locker room still believe that the play call stemmed from this as stupid as it is.

 

[Hyak]

Mike Freeman chimes in.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ues-but-pete-carroll-is-holding-them-together

Among the gems:

"I think Pete has kept a bunch of civil wars from breaking out."

This isn't a column about Seahawks players berating teammates privately. It's also not a shot at the excellent reporting from ESPN The Magazine's Seth Wickersham that added to what many of us have reported before, widening an already lake-deep knowledge of how volatile the Seahawks locker room is.

This column is simple. I spoke with four Seattle players this week, and they made something clear, stating their thoughts without malice. All four of them, each veterans, made one poignant statement: It's worse than you know.

What seems clear now is that when the Seahawks' final story is written, it will be about how a smart, talented team won in spite of—often publicly denied, but mostly true—inner rifts, slights and divisions.

These players say the gulf between offense and defense has long been bad, hasn't gotten better, never will, and it doesn't matter.

 

[Thunderhawk]

In summation, props to any player still pissed and boooooooooooo Bevell and the dolts that defended him. Whether he is a competant OC was only ever half the issue. Politically he was poison and Pete should have shitcanned that bozo .03 seconds after the interception.

It took 36 posts for someone to blame Bevell, you guys are losing your edge.

So let me get this straight, you encourage the players to still hold onto their grudges about the SB loss........as opposed to what would actually help us move on and become a cohesive team with great chemistry once again, letting it go and focusing on 2017.

"So let me get this straight": you think keeping Bevell sat well with the players? Do you often ignore human nature? You are just a fan. You don't understand how devastating that fiasco was to a professional athlete. As I previously posted:

"Imagine working your ass off all season, being "All In", playing though injuries, leaving it all on the field, on the cusp of a second title, the endorsement deals, the bonus cash, the Rings, the parades, the victory sex, the bragging rights, the dynasty - only to have it all stolen from you by one of the dumbest play calls in the history of Sport."

I predicted 2.5 years ago that this would linger and it still has. Pete could have flushed it by firing a mediocre OC. Instead it has festered. Being 'All In' and willing to put it all on the line, means trusting that the people in charge won't waste your sacrifice. How can the players believe this when the same person is there to potentially make the same call in the same situation? You think Marshawn flipping Bevell off was just a moment of caprice? You think Marshawn 'retiring' last season had nothing to do with Bevell?

This offseason we have heard about how different players are held to different standards by Carroll -different levels of accountability., Thus accountability matters to them. Not being held accountable for an epic blunder that cost a championship matters much, much more. You can expect the players to ignore it and move on but then we'd better start drafting robots.

All the roster churn will eventually mitigate this issue, as will Sherm exiting next season. But so long as DB is here the story stays alive...

 

[Sgt. Largent]

"Imagine working your ass off all season, being "All In", playing though injuries, leaving it all on the field, on the cusp of a second title, the endorsement deals, the bonus cash, the Rings, the parades, the victory sex, the bragging rights, the dynasty - only to have it all stolen from you by one of the dumbest play calls in the history of Sport."

You say this like the defense had held Brady to zero points. Dude was throwing ALL over the Hawks the 2nd half, including on Sherman. Who's to say even if we scored that TD that Brady wouldn't have driven right down the field and scored to win the game.

They certainly coughed it up to Atlanta 2 years earlier, so who the heck is the defense to act all butthurt over that play, and Bevell? Screw them if they think like this, they didn't play perfect either.............and CERTAINLY haven't since to continue to hold that grudge and act like they're poop don't stink going on 3-4 years now.

Be a damn grown up, stop acting like children, shut up, put your head down and go work. All this nonsense does ZERO to help us win another SB, so why continue it? It's pure unadulterated selfish pride and ego.

 

[pittpnthrs]

The whole Bevell thing is interesting. I do feel that if he was let go after that SB loss, the healing would have been much quicker and easier to deal with. That particular play call was awful in my opinion because it involved the worst offensive player we had in Lockette. I believe you roll with your most talented players to increase your percentages of success and we didnt do that. Is Darrell Bevell such a coveted OC that we cant live without him and he's worth all of this disarray? I certainly dont think so. I feel the team has enough talent that they would be successful regardless of who the OC is, but I could be wrong.

I thought what JTB posted was interesting also. This quote=

This column is simple. I spoke with four Seattle players this week, and they made something clear, stating their thoughts without malice. All four of them, each veterans, made one poignant statement: It's worse than you know.

I definitely cant wait to hear some stories after this era and group is finished to see how bad it really is/was. I dont think we can sugarcoat anymore. There obviously appears to be some serious issues with the team. Is it keeping us from moving on? Not sure.

 

[Hyak]

At the heart of this rift is the offense versus the defense. It didn't work for the Bears aside from 1985 and it won't work here.

In 2013, it wasn't a big issue as everyone was team oriented. The cracks seemed to surface in 2014 before the SB and it just seems to widen.

The irony is that the defense, while still very good, has slowly regressed each season since 2013 whereas the offense has been inconsistent more so than it should be.

All said, though, I have a real hard time buying the defenses argument that the offense is screwing them from more SB's when they have been pretty inconsistent in the playoffs themselves in this run of contention.

2012 - Allows 41 yards in 2 plays/12 seconds to lose on a GW FG 30-28.
2013 - Allows GB and a hobbled Rodgers to drive for a tying FG to force OT in the NFCC
2014 - Allows NE to score 28 and come from 10 down in the 4th quarter. Granted they were beat to hell in that one.
2015 - Allows 24 first half points to Carolina in the divisional round and they lose 31-24.
2016 - Allows 34 points at home to bad Cardinals team and lets them drive for GW FG at the end in a game that costs them a bye week/#2 seed. Note Hauschka's botched XP didn't help after the offense came back like crazy in that game.
2016 - Allows 34 points to Atlanta in the divisional round and it would have been more if not for the mercy rule.

That doesn't absolve the offense from their failures either but it's a glasshouse argument from the defense when you look at facts.

 

[Siouxhawk]

But the article JTB quotes also makes it clear that even if there is a rift of some sort in the locker room, it doesn't affect their level of play on the field one iota. In fact, it might make them even saltier and play with a greater edge because of it. I'm sure Pete is tuned into that and is channeling it to our advantage.

As far as Bevell, it's quite foolish to think scapegoating him for one play and giving him his dismissal would be the prudent decision. It's not how this organization works and those advocating this nonsense really haven't been paying attention.

SB 49 had so many variables at play that could have swayed that game either way. The final pass itself is a touchdown if just one one of three things happens -- a) Kearse effectively rubs Browner into Butler; b) Lockette breaks harder without looking for the ball at first and gets to the spot where the ball was thrown a split second sooner (also using his body to shield an advancing Butler) or c) Lockette runs more parallel to the line of scrimmage, making Butler cover more territory. Of these options, there's the chance Butler still makes the tackle, but I really can't see him getting the interception. Also, Lockette may have been able to shake past Butler as he turned toward the end zone.

Bevell is one of the best OCs in the game, he is tied with Cable for the best winning percentage ever for the Hawks and he has an offensive system that fits what Pete wants and is highly advanced for the game Russ is suited for. As has been said all offseason, our offense purrs like a kitten when our offensive line is providing adequate protection. Balance that with a running game and we'll be back to the level we played at in the 2013 season, a year in which Bevell helped us win a Super Bowl if you remember with a rather inexperienced quarterback at the helm.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

But the article JTB quotes also makes it clear that even if there is a rift of some sort in the locker room, it doesn't affect their level of play on the field one iota. In fact, it might make them even saltier and play with a greater edge because of it..

How do you know?

It's impossible to quantify something like chemistry or player grudges into tangible on field performance.

I'll only say this, you don't publicly put on blast actively listening to trade offers for one of your top 2-3 players if you don't think his nonsense is affecting, or will affect your on field play.

 

[Hyak]

I think it jumps the shark when a player openly starts questioning play calls from coordinators DURING the game, which Sherman did twice. Not to mention the doubling down of it in the week after the Rams game and then having your unit give up 34 points at home.

 

[Jville]

From a mental health point of view, I find it alarming to run across posts where the author is still obsessing over a dated singular event that was never within their sphere of influence. Clearly blaming someone else has proven to be no help for what festers inside of them. Don't they have live partners or coaches or confidants to help them deal with their disappointments?

 

[Siouxhawk]

But the article JTB quotes also makes it clear that even if there is a rift of some sort in the locker room, it doesn't affect their level of play on the field one iota. In fact, it might make them even saltier and play with a greater edge because of it..

How do you know?

It's impossible to quantify something like chemistry or player grudges into tangible on field performance.

I'll only say this, you don't publicly put on blast actively listening to trade offers for one of your top 2-3 players if you don't think his nonsense is affecting, or will affect your on field play.

Yes, I think you are correct. Even Pete has his limits as far as insubordination and not protecting the team. That's the territory Sherm crossed into and it won't be tolerated. I believe Richard won't be such a Richard this year and he'll buy back into his role. And it's an important role.

You bring up a good question as far as what the rift really is. What does it mean? Are players arguing all the time? Is there a silent treatment going on between the offense and defense? If so, you never see these things. As JTB just pointed out, mistakes aren't just being made by the offense these days. The defense has to hold itself accountable too, especially considering they receive the higher paychecks by and large.

And also, has been said, much of what we are discussing here and the media glams over for whatever reason, our locker room probably isn't much different or atypical than most around the league. There's always been an offensive vs. defensive mindset in locker rooms around the league because they're always beating on each other in practice and scrimmages. Even socially, there's probably not a ton of mingling going on among the two different sides of the ball. They tend to stick together and we're not unique in this regard.

 

[sdog1981]

The 85 Bears were a split team too. They kept winning for about 5 seasons, it all fell apart with injuries and retirements around 1989. The 2012 Seahawks will probably have a very similar 30 for 30 story about the locker room split. But this team, unlike those 80's Bears teams actually made it to a second Superbowl.

 

[Hyak]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The Bears playoff runs ran from 1984-1988 where their defense was in it's prime. They won the SB in 1985 and lost NFFC twice (1984, 1988) and were 1 and done in 1986 (14-2 that year) and 1987.

The Seahawks have had a similar run although they have at least won playoff games in each year and made 2 SB's.

It would be a shame if egos and stubbornness makes them this era's version.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

The 85 Bears were a split team too. They kept winning for about 5 seasons, it all fell apart with injuries and retirements around 1989. The 2012 Seahawks will probably have a very similar 30 for 30 story about the locker room split. But this team, unlike those 80's Bears teams actually made it to a second Superbowl.

Pretty good example. The Bears like the Hawks had a ton of different personalities pulling in different directions on and off the field that Ditka and Ryan couldn't hold together for a long period of years.

BUT............IMO Pete is a far better coach than Ditka ever was, especially at managing a locker room.

 

[Sports Hernia]

The 85 Bears were a split team too. They kept winning for about 5 seasons, it all fell apart with injuries and retirements around 1989. The 2012 Seahawks will probably have a very similar 30 for 30 story about the locker room split. But this team, unlike those 80's Bears teams actually made it to a second Superbowl.

Pretty good example. The Bears like the Hawks had a ton of different personalities pulling in different directions on and off the field that Ditka and Ryan couldn't hold together for a long period of years.

BUT............IMO Pete is a far better coach than Ditka ever was, especially at managing a locker room.

Who would win between a room full of Mini-Ditka's and Mini-Pete's?? 8)

 

[Seymour]

The 85 Bears were a split team too. They kept winning for about 5 seasons, it all fell apart with injuries and retirements around 1989. The 2012 Seahawks will probably have a very similar 30 for 30 story about the locker room split. But this team, unlike those 80's Bears teams actually made it to a second Superbowl.

Pretty good example. The Bears like the Hawks had a ton of different personalities pulling in different directions on and off the field that Ditka and Ryan couldn't hold together for a long period of years.

BUT............IMO Pete is a far better coach than Ditka ever was, especially at managing a locker room.

Who would win between a room full of Mini-Ditka's and Mini-Pete's?? 8)

Mini Me of course. :mrgreen:

 

[Sports Hernia]

The 85 Bears were a split team too. They kept winning for about 5 seasons, it all fell apart with injuries and retirements around 1989. The 2012 Seahawks will probably have a very similar 30 for 30 story about the locker room split. But this team, unlike those 80's Bears teams actually made it to a second Superbowl.

Pretty good example. The Bears like the Hawks had a ton of different personalities pulling in different directions on and off the field that Ditka and Ryan couldn't hold together for a long period of years.

BUT............IMO Pete is a far better coach than Ditka ever was, especially at managing a locker room.

Who would win between a room full of Mini-Ditka's and Mini-Pete's?? 8)

 

[hawkfan68]

"Imagine working your ass off all season, being "All In", playing though injuries, leaving it all on the field, on the cusp of a second title, the endorsement deals, the bonus cash, the Rings, the parades, the victory sex, the bragging rights, the dynasty - only to have it all stolen from you by one of the dumbest play calls in the history of Sport."

You say this like the defense had held Brady to zero points. Dude was throwing ALL over the Hawks the 2nd half, including on Sherman. Who's to say even if we scored that TD that Brady wouldn't have driven right down the field and scored to win the game.

They certainly coughed it up to Atlanta 2 years earlier, so who the heck is the defense to act all butthurt over that play, and Bevell? Screw them if they think like this, they didn't play perfect either.............and CERTAINLY haven't since to continue to hold that grudge and act like they're poop don't stink going on 3-4 years now.

Be a damn grown up, stop acting like children, shut up, put your head down and go work. All this nonsense does ZERO to help us win another SB, so why continue it? It's pure unadulterated selfish pride and ego.

Sherman, Thomas, and Kam were all dealing with some type of injury during the game. I think Kam suffered a big injury during practice SB week. Sherman and Thomas got hurt in the NFCCG, IIRC. http://www.patriots.com/news/2015/01/31/patriots-seahawks-super-bowl-xlix-injury-report

The defense didn't have their best game but they were decimated with injuries and still were ahead by 10 pts going into the 4th quarter. The defense played its hearts out, literally. That is probably what is feeding into the division of offense and defense, if there is one. I remember the during SB48 season, the team mantra was "who's got my back, I've got your back". I've seen that being said during their pregame rituals. From SB49 and on, that mantra seems non-existent.

Furthermore, I believe the division between the offense and defense is much more than just one player. Sherman has been the most vocal but I believe there are others with him. So trading or getting rid of Sherman may not solve the division. It's like a cancer that spreads throughout the body. Getting rid of one part doesn't cure the rest of the body. I wonder who the other players are...what if they are Kam, ET, Wagner, Avril, and Bennett? Should the Seahawks get rid of them too? Then where would the defense be after that? It's a complex issue and I'm hoping that they somehow are able to play above their disagreements. Because doing so will be better than the alternatives.