melloyello1818
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MizzouHawkGal":3ht66wfz said:
Please... No pass rush in the NFL can make ours look JV. I don't care who they are. Get real.
We Are STILL In Disbelief And Denial In Bronco Country
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Please... No pass rush in the NFL can make ours look JV. I don't care who they are. Get real.
kearly
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Classy post Broncomaniac. If it makes you feel better, I think the Broncos have a very good shot at winning the next SB.
Firstly, the Broncos are a very good team, clearly the best in the AFC. Each of the last two years they ranked #2 in DVOA (behind Seattle both times). The smart stats say they were the NFL's second best team two years running.
Seattle is better, but they aren't 43-8 better. The reason for the blowout was from huge schematic matchup advantages (a few big plays didn't hurt, either). Our secondary has turned elite pocket QBs with much better arms than Manning (Brees, Rodgers, etc) into checkdown machines that struggle to score. Our big corners disrupt routes and are the best in the game at intercepting sideline passes and fade routes. You can get Seattle over the short middle, if you don't mind Kam Chancellor destroying your WR/TE's souls. The deep middle should be soft in theory, but isn't because Earl Thomas is every bit as good as his hype right now.
Anyone that did their homework on Seattle before that game would have known that Manning was not going to come close to his 38 point average against that style of defense. Not only is Seattle's back seven ridiculously talented, but their cover 3 scheme is basically designed to frustrate pass heavy offenses, especially those that rely on winning chess matches like Manning and Brees. Jacksonville has zero talent, but they implement the same scheme and it has given pass happy teams some trouble at times.
We also have an under-rated pass rush that can get home with 4 rushers, and a top 10 rush defense. We have what I assume to be the fastest trio of LBs in the NFL. Wagner and Smith run in the 4.4s, Irvin ran a 4.50 (backup Mike Morgan also runs in the 4.4s). KJ Wright seems molasses slow in comparison at 4.75, which is actually fast for a 6'4" LB. Our team has cut multiple LBs who ran in the 4.5s. I can't really express how insane it is to have a group of competent LBs who run in the 4.4s.
On defense, Denver lacks the fast linebacking corps necessary to bottle up and frustrate Wilson the way that the Cardinals, Rams, and 49ers can. Your slow linebackers made Wilson's job much easier, which is why he dominated on 3rd downs and very nearly went the entire game without even being touched once.
If you want to beat Seattle, you have to get a lot more physical on both sides of the ball, especially on defense. You probably also need to figure out a way to run the football against our defense. The only times Seattle's defense has really struggled involved opponents who either ran the ball very well or who had spectacular ability to attack deep in the passing game. You need to corral Wilson in the pocket so he can't just roll out, and you need to get much faster at LB.
That's pretty much going to require a roster rollover which is not only difficult, but would take years if done right. A more realistic hope is to just avoid Seattle in the big game. That's where I have some optimism for the Broncos, because I think at best Seattle is 50/50 to make it back next year, and stat wonks (football outsiders) would probably put that percentage closer to 35% or 40%.
A lot of people say that the 49ers would dominate the Broncos too, but I don't think that's true. Their secondary isn't even in the same universe as Seattle's and the 49ers do not have a track record of shutting down elite QBs, although they still usually beat them because most defenses can't defend Kaepernick. I think Denver vs. SF would be a shootout similar to the Har-bowl a couple years ago, and obviously I'd give the Broncos a good shot at winning that game. Everyone else from the NFC can be beaten if the Broncos play their best football.
Firstly, the Broncos are a very good team, clearly the best in the AFC. Each of the last two years they ranked #2 in DVOA (behind Seattle both times). The smart stats say they were the NFL's second best team two years running.
Seattle is better, but they aren't 43-8 better. The reason for the blowout was from huge schematic matchup advantages (a few big plays didn't hurt, either). Our secondary has turned elite pocket QBs with much better arms than Manning (Brees, Rodgers, etc) into checkdown machines that struggle to score. Our big corners disrupt routes and are the best in the game at intercepting sideline passes and fade routes. You can get Seattle over the short middle, if you don't mind Kam Chancellor destroying your WR/TE's souls. The deep middle should be soft in theory, but isn't because Earl Thomas is every bit as good as his hype right now.
Anyone that did their homework on Seattle before that game would have known that Manning was not going to come close to his 38 point average against that style of defense. Not only is Seattle's back seven ridiculously talented, but their cover 3 scheme is basically designed to frustrate pass heavy offenses, especially those that rely on winning chess matches like Manning and Brees. Jacksonville has zero talent, but they implement the same scheme and it has given pass happy teams some trouble at times.
We also have an under-rated pass rush that can get home with 4 rushers, and a top 10 rush defense. We have what I assume to be the fastest trio of LBs in the NFL. Wagner and Smith run in the 4.4s, Irvin ran a 4.50 (backup Mike Morgan also runs in the 4.4s). KJ Wright seems molasses slow in comparison at 4.75, which is actually fast for a 6'4" LB. Our team has cut multiple LBs who ran in the 4.5s. I can't really express how insane it is to have a group of competent LBs who run in the 4.4s.
On defense, Denver lacks the fast linebacking corps necessary to bottle up and frustrate Wilson the way that the Cardinals, Rams, and 49ers can. Your slow linebackers made Wilson's job much easier, which is why he dominated on 3rd downs and very nearly went the entire game without even being touched once.
If you want to beat Seattle, you have to get a lot more physical on both sides of the ball, especially on defense. You probably also need to figure out a way to run the football against our defense. The only times Seattle's defense has really struggled involved opponents who either ran the ball very well or who had spectacular ability to attack deep in the passing game. You need to corral Wilson in the pocket so he can't just roll out, and you need to get much faster at LB.
That's pretty much going to require a roster rollover which is not only difficult, but would take years if done right. A more realistic hope is to just avoid Seattle in the big game. That's where I have some optimism for the Broncos, because I think at best Seattle is 50/50 to make it back next year, and stat wonks (football outsiders) would probably put that percentage closer to 35% or 40%.
A lot of people say that the 49ers would dominate the Broncos too, but I don't think that's true. Their secondary isn't even in the same universe as Seattle's and the 49ers do not have a track record of shutting down elite QBs, although they still usually beat them because most defenses can't defend Kaepernick. I think Denver vs. SF would be a shootout similar to the Har-bowl a couple years ago, and obviously I'd give the Broncos a good shot at winning that game. Everyone else from the NFC can be beaten if the Broncos play their best football.
I really think the decade of having an " elite QB and you can win it all" is over. Not because of having top tier talent at the QB position is a bad thing, it's the 20 million plus it takes to keep one. That's a huge percentage of payroll going to a single player. Even if you give it to the right guy, the rest of the team takes a huge hit as far as proven quality of players on the roster. I see it all the time on this forum, RW is "ELITE". No, he isn't and he shouldn't be paid like it yet. PM is but his minor faults but they are large enough to make the difference of loosing a playoff game or SB because of the "other" players that could be on the team if he wasn't draining 20% or more from the cap space for the year.
Denver needs a real OC that can take over when PM struggles. They also need a better secondary as well as a commitment to running the ball. The run D is good and could have been the difference in the SB if PM'ing and the alligator armed receivers hadn't crapped the bed. A good run game and great tackling physical D usually wins against high flying pass happy offenses.
Denver needs a real OC that can take over when PM struggles. They also need a better secondary as well as a commitment to running the ball. The run D is good and could have been the difference in the SB if PM'ing and the alligator armed receivers hadn't crapped the bed. A good run game and great tackling physical D usually wins against high flying pass happy offenses.
TwistedHusky
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If the Broncos would have played anyone but Seattle they probably win, and win handily.
I think they would have shelled SF, just as Atlanta passed for over 300 on them, Peyton would have eviscerated them.
SF had an amazing front seven but their secondary was middling at best.
I just think that our pass rush combined with our stellar tackling discipline meant that a team that relied on mistakes (Denver) and taking advantage of them, was simply not given mistakes to exploit.
It was very bad luck for Denver and I feel for the fans, (because they really went through the ringer the past few years after such high expectations), but I imagine that unless Seattle makes the SB they probably do have another free run at it and I cannot see a situation where any team but the Seahawks could beat them.
Yes they played an easy schedule, but the one team with the matchup advantage against them is us, everyone else in the NFC is simply going to be picked apart by that offense.
I think they would have shelled SF, just as Atlanta passed for over 300 on them, Peyton would have eviscerated them.
SF had an amazing front seven but their secondary was middling at best.
I just think that our pass rush combined with our stellar tackling discipline meant that a team that relied on mistakes (Denver) and taking advantage of them, was simply not given mistakes to exploit.
It was very bad luck for Denver and I feel for the fans, (because they really went through the ringer the past few years after such high expectations), but I imagine that unless Seattle makes the SB they probably do have another free run at it and I cannot see a situation where any team but the Seahawks could beat them.
Yes they played an easy schedule, but the one team with the matchup advantage against them is us, everyone else in the NFC is simply going to be picked apart by that offense.
Ya'll need a power run game, ASAP.
The teams that stress Seattle are the ones that can pound the rock and/or have a mobile and accurate QB. Look at how Kaepernick and Gore can give us fits. Gore's big run in San Francisco is what killed us in that game. Kaepernick meanwhile is a nightmare to contain.
Unfortunately, you have Peyton Manning, and he's not only a statue, he's only getting slower and slower as he gets older. Which means you need the power run game.
If Elway was wise, he knows that you are in a WIN NOW mode, because Peyton's window is rapidly closing. Craziest and best move you could do is make whatever deal you have to and get Adrian Petersen from the Vikings. Sure, you'll probably have to sacrifice some of the passing game, but it's not like that was winning you a Super Bowl against Seattle.
The teams that stress Seattle are the ones that can pound the rock and/or have a mobile and accurate QB. Look at how Kaepernick and Gore can give us fits. Gore's big run in San Francisco is what killed us in that game. Kaepernick meanwhile is a nightmare to contain.
Unfortunately, you have Peyton Manning, and he's not only a statue, he's only getting slower and slower as he gets older. Which means you need the power run game.
If Elway was wise, he knows that you are in a WIN NOW mode, because Peyton's window is rapidly closing. Craziest and best move you could do is make whatever deal you have to and get Adrian Petersen from the Vikings. Sure, you'll probably have to sacrifice some of the passing game, but it's not like that was winning you a Super Bowl against Seattle.
Smelly McUgly
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The Broncos should find a way to draft Ka'deem Carey and pair him with Montee Ball, basically. Run the ball more and keep the heat off Peyton so pass rushers can't pin their ears back.
Sac
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Smelly McUgly":td0y4xsi said:
Wouldn't matter since Peyton can't throw deep on above average coverage any more.
Galen96
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even if you had all your defensive starters, our defense scored more than your offense....
Scottemojo
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Most has been said.
I watched 3 quarters of Denver vs our JV squad in Jacksonville and knew we had this one. As mentioned above, the cover 3 press we run is a major changeup. Even the greats like Payton will decrease in effectiveness when they have to make 3 reads to find that open guy. And while I consider Payton to be the GOAT, his arm is way diminished, and the only guys to give us much trouble have been plus arms. Essentially, with Payton rarely passing more than 30 yards down field, and in fact probably 90 percent of his passing under 15 yards, Denver is playing red zone offense on the entire field. Red zone defense is right in our wheelhouse.
Von Miller being out didn't help you at all. There were other injuries that hurt you as well. Now, to be fair, even when healthy, there are still only 2 players from your D that could start in Seattle, Knighton and Miller. I am not being snobby, schematically we are so different that they are it.
And of course, honest Denver fans will admit that for two weeks, the focus was on your O and our D, but few spent much time talking about our offense and your D. I have to admit I was surprised by how well Denver shut down Lynch, but when I reviewed, Denver was committing 8 and even 9 to stopping the run. Our pass catchers might be a bit small, but the Denver secondary was just plain outmatched. No pass rush from Denver didn't help your cause.
I still think you would have had a 50/50 shot vs the Niners, who play a lot more off zone, which really favors your screen game. And while it has become popular to say the NFC CG was the real SB, the Niners would have gone to the SB without Bowman. A very big deal. Still, I think Kaepernick would have run circles around your D. At least 30 for both teams, all things considered. Also, lest I forget, Iupati would have been out.
If Denver puts together a similar year next season, the SB would be on grass in Phoenix, probably with the roof closed. That would favor Manning a bit. Still, if he is facing our D and scheme, I would have trouble saying he can win if the Broncos don't run 35 times, which they can't do with present personnel. Lets be honest, Denver's run game is a changeup that Payton calls when it is clear the D is set up to stop the pass. Not a staple, a changeup. Essentially, we present the same look either way, and don't do a lot of pre snap moving around to try and confuse the O. We make it about matchups, which unless Denver has the draft and free agency season of all time, would still favor us.
However, in your favor is the one matchup I have not talked about, and that is all the missing O-line. Once again, pre SB people were kissing the collective butt of your O-line because Peyton Manning's genius had them giving us what, 18 sacks total on the year? Not to be mean, but most of those guys are frauds, just like most of the guys in front of Manning in Indy were frauds. The man has the quickest release and reads on the planet, those jokers were more protected than bald eagles by that release. But, and this is the big but, if the missing players on that line are back and healthy next year, that is a big deal for Manning. Clady is the real deal, as were the others. Now, that isn't a free pass for you to beat us, but it is an important detail.
Props for checking in here, that had to be the an awful game to watch for Bronco fans. It had to be one fun season watching your team rack those points, though.
I watched 3 quarters of Denver vs our JV squad in Jacksonville and knew we had this one. As mentioned above, the cover 3 press we run is a major changeup. Even the greats like Payton will decrease in effectiveness when they have to make 3 reads to find that open guy. And while I consider Payton to be the GOAT, his arm is way diminished, and the only guys to give us much trouble have been plus arms. Essentially, with Payton rarely passing more than 30 yards down field, and in fact probably 90 percent of his passing under 15 yards, Denver is playing red zone offense on the entire field. Red zone defense is right in our wheelhouse.
Von Miller being out didn't help you at all. There were other injuries that hurt you as well. Now, to be fair, even when healthy, there are still only 2 players from your D that could start in Seattle, Knighton and Miller. I am not being snobby, schematically we are so different that they are it.
And of course, honest Denver fans will admit that for two weeks, the focus was on your O and our D, but few spent much time talking about our offense and your D. I have to admit I was surprised by how well Denver shut down Lynch, but when I reviewed, Denver was committing 8 and even 9 to stopping the run. Our pass catchers might be a bit small, but the Denver secondary was just plain outmatched. No pass rush from Denver didn't help your cause.
I still think you would have had a 50/50 shot vs the Niners, who play a lot more off zone, which really favors your screen game. And while it has become popular to say the NFC CG was the real SB, the Niners would have gone to the SB without Bowman. A very big deal. Still, I think Kaepernick would have run circles around your D. At least 30 for both teams, all things considered. Also, lest I forget, Iupati would have been out.
If Denver puts together a similar year next season, the SB would be on grass in Phoenix, probably with the roof closed. That would favor Manning a bit. Still, if he is facing our D and scheme, I would have trouble saying he can win if the Broncos don't run 35 times, which they can't do with present personnel. Lets be honest, Denver's run game is a changeup that Payton calls when it is clear the D is set up to stop the pass. Not a staple, a changeup. Essentially, we present the same look either way, and don't do a lot of pre snap moving around to try and confuse the O. We make it about matchups, which unless Denver has the draft and free agency season of all time, would still favor us.
However, in your favor is the one matchup I have not talked about, and that is all the missing O-line. Once again, pre SB people were kissing the collective butt of your O-line because Peyton Manning's genius had them giving us what, 18 sacks total on the year? Not to be mean, but most of those guys are frauds, just like most of the guys in front of Manning in Indy were frauds. The man has the quickest release and reads on the planet, those jokers were more protected than bald eagles by that release. But, and this is the big but, if the missing players on that line are back and healthy next year, that is a big deal for Manning. Clady is the real deal, as were the others. Now, that isn't a free pass for you to beat us, but it is an important detail.
Props for checking in here, that had to be the an awful game to watch for Bronco fans. It had to be one fun season watching your team rack those points, though.
MizzouHawkGal
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Man, are you going to be disappointed and pissed in 2015. Wilson going to get paid just like Sherman and Earl. It's going to be all about the structure and details of said contracts now.irocdave":2sd1bu58 said:
HawkFan72
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Follow the Seahawk model:
You need a RB that punches people in the mouth. You need a smart FB that paves the way by mowing people down. You need some O-linemen that are nasty and refuse to take crap from any defender. Most times they START more trash than the defenders. And you need some WRs that don't just talk about how much they love to hit...they back it up too. They love contact and they love blocking and show it on the field, not talk about it during media day.
Then maybe your offense will be ready to win a title.
You need a RB that punches people in the mouth. You need a smart FB that paves the way by mowing people down. You need some O-linemen that are nasty and refuse to take crap from any defender. Most times they START more trash than the defenders. And you need some WRs that don't just talk about how much they love to hit...they back it up too. They love contact and they love blocking and show it on the field, not talk about it during media day.
Then maybe your offense will be ready to win a title.
chris98251
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Read all these posts and Elway really should know the answer, He spent a career throwing the ball to win, it was having a running game and him throwing the ball to move the offense that won him a Championship and a aggressive tough defense.
There was no way to prepare for our defense till you see them a couple of times. No team has more team speed and size across the board then we do, add a physicality that is infectious and willing to put a hit on anyone as soon as it is legal and you have a intimidating element that the Broncos never seen all season.
Also, this team when pissed cranks it up a notch, when I say TEAM I mean it. As a team they support each other like no team I have seen, offense , defense, special teams and the coaches.
Nothing here is taken for granted and the guys know they slack they lose a spot, Pete has shown it time and time again, the players feed off it.
There has been more then one player quoted saying game days are easy compared to practice for a reason.
There was no way to prepare for our defense till you see them a couple of times. No team has more team speed and size across the board then we do, add a physicality that is infectious and willing to put a hit on anyone as soon as it is legal and you have a intimidating element that the Broncos never seen all season.
Also, this team when pissed cranks it up a notch, when I say TEAM I mean it. As a team they support each other like no team I have seen, offense , defense, special teams and the coaches.
Nothing here is taken for granted and the guys know they slack they lose a spot, Pete has shown it time and time again, the players feed off it.
There has been more then one player quoted saying game days are easy compared to practice for a reason.
HolyCatfish
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Broncomaniac69":217sdhdt said:Hi Seahawk fans once again.....
Your lambasting us and disgracing us in the Super Bowl has sure left a HUGE mark on our team.
Questions are rising... We have MANY FA's to discuss and address.
We are still licking our wounds from that ass pounding we got. Most of us have already let it go, some are still head hunting and willing to trade the farm for a specific player in the draft already.
We fought hard to get there. We had numerous defensive injuries. Not excuses but facts. Yet here we are as a fan base, pissed off. According so many different voices, the throwing them under the bus fact became a mass murder scene.
Funny I come here for some sort of realistic perspective?
Your defense is obviously superior and many have wondered what we need to do? Get that same sort of dominant force? But it's not just that. Our "1st ranked offense" did absolutely nothing. So if it's all about meeting you again next year, and defense plays the ultimate goal, a 13-8 final would be in our favor?
Classy post Bronco, cheers! This thread might interest you...
subject: How will the Seahawk's success change the NFL?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90446
HolyCatfish
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TwistedHusky":qciamyyc said:
Nah, they were mediocre, MEE DEE OKER secondary.
Attyla the Hawk
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I would say that Seattle was probably the worst matcup that the Broncos could have faced. Even if they had faced another NFC West power, the fact is our secondary is built specifically to destroy your kind of offense. San Fransisco doesn't have the secondary to just pound the tar out of your receivers.
Your team is very one dimensional. If your passing game doesn't work, you are sunk. Nobody in this league has a secondary as suited to kill short crossing/screen teams like ours. New Orleans struggled against us too, although their offense has a more vertical element to it. Our defense hits hard and doesn't allow YAC. Teams that seek to turn short passes into long explosive plays don't have any success against us. Our team is ripe with sure tacklers who get guys down.
San Fransisco's secondary is pretty lean. You would've fared a lot better against them. Although their pass rush is equally fierce -- the combination of pass rush and denial of routes they don't have in their repertoire. Your defense was geared up to stop the run and would have really put the screws to Kaepernick as I think you could have turned them one dimensional too, and Kaepernick will give games away. Wilson is still a functional QB who doesn't lose games. You stopped Lynch excellently. But Wilson doesn't drop a load in his pants when that happens. Kaepernick doesn't have the same kind of poise and he would have made game changing mistakes.
I honestly think it was just a bad match up. Nothing more than that. No reason to throw out the baby with the bath water. Although getting a running game (and committing to it) would be a good start. Elway should know that better than anyone as he didn't get title success until Terrell Davis tore it up on the ground.
Your team is very one dimensional. If your passing game doesn't work, you are sunk. Nobody in this league has a secondary as suited to kill short crossing/screen teams like ours. New Orleans struggled against us too, although their offense has a more vertical element to it. Our defense hits hard and doesn't allow YAC. Teams that seek to turn short passes into long explosive plays don't have any success against us. Our team is ripe with sure tacklers who get guys down.
San Fransisco's secondary is pretty lean. You would've fared a lot better against them. Although their pass rush is equally fierce -- the combination of pass rush and denial of routes they don't have in their repertoire. Your defense was geared up to stop the run and would have really put the screws to Kaepernick as I think you could have turned them one dimensional too, and Kaepernick will give games away. Wilson is still a functional QB who doesn't lose games. You stopped Lynch excellently. But Wilson doesn't drop a load in his pants when that happens. Kaepernick doesn't have the same kind of poise and he would have made game changing mistakes.
I honestly think it was just a bad match up. Nothing more than that. No reason to throw out the baby with the bath water. Although getting a running game (and committing to it) would be a good start. Elway should know that better than anyone as he didn't get title success until Terrell Davis tore it up on the ground.
Tokadub
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drdiags":3dfyccoy said:
Yikes, would not want to be a Broncos fan for next season. Say good bye to your 13-3 that's for sure.
Seahawkfan80
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And if they get to the Superbowl in AZ, expect to see a lot of 12s in AZ if Seattle makes it back to the dance. We will make it a home game again. Good luck with all the wisdom spoken with words here on this string.
Largent80
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You need to have more in your offense than..... hike.....thousand one, thousand t....throw the slant.
As others have said, get some DB's.
As others have said, get some DB's.
