We're Saved !!! O-Line "Nailed"

[chris98251]

My question is if we draft someone and don't know where we will play them and what they are best at what does that say for our evaluation process.

 

[hawk45]

Cable ebullience = kiss of death

 

[jammerhawk]

My question is if we draft someone and don't know where we will play them and what they are best at what does that say for our evaluation process.

Either that or the continuing reality is the college game is not producing pro ready OLinemen. It's just not easy to find guys who can play capably in the pro game.

 

[Seymour]

My question is if we draft someone and don't know where we will play them and what they are best at what does that say for our evaluation process.

Either that or the continuing reality is the college game is not producing pro ready OLinemen. It's just not easy to find guys who can play capably in the pro game.

Which has been driven into Seattle fans by none other than Tom Cable. Funny how that works. Also funny how since we year after year, rank among the leagues worst pass blocking lines (highest ranking for Cable since here #22), that other teams are not having the same degree of problems as we are.

 

[Attyla the Hawk]

My question is if we draft someone and don't know where we will play them and what they are best at what does that say for our evaluation process.

Either that or the continuing reality is the college game is not producing pro ready OLinemen. It's just not easy to find guys who can play capably in the pro game.

Which has been driven into Seattle fans by none other than Tom Cable. Funny how that works. Also funny how since we year after year, rank among the leagues worst pass blocking lines (highest ranking for Cable since here #22), that other teams are not having the same degree of problems as we are.

To answer all three questions:

1. We know where Pocic can play. This process is more about seeing what else he can do. There's no rush to put him at C, since we have Britt. Nor is there a rush to slot him at OG. Since we're fairly solid there too.

I'd stress, that this concept of trying OL players out along the line is not unique to Cable. This happens on every single team throughout the league. Every team does this. For the same reasons we do. You have to have flexibility because you have a limited number of roster spots. A team can really only afford maybe one or two guys who specialize in one position. Everyone else pretty much has to play everywhere else. Usually that specialist position is OC. So it's extra valuable that we have two players at OC, who may be able to play 4 positions. And it's worth noting too, that if Pocic does take to OG/OT, that allows us to address OC in a future draft. A position where getting quality players late is not altogether difficult or unreasonable to achieve. If Pocic can be more than just an OC, then we have extra flexibility down the line when we have to make future roster decisions.

2. It's not easy to find guys from college who are capable in the pros. It incredibly hard. And every team struggles with this aspect. It's one of the things noted about Pocic that is a departure from our prototype picks in the past. Pocic is very advanced in terms of his skill set compared to guys we've drafted before. I'd expect him to be a lot further along in this aspect.

3. Yeah, our lines haven't been superb. But unless you take things into context (specifically citing who we should have taken otherwise and who we would have sacrificed to get them), then we're all just using circular logic based on little more than fantasy. It's not funny how it works. It's basically a blind criticism with no regard to the decisions that all teams have to make in a draft or on a roster. Nor does it account for the fact that Wilson's scramble to extend plays style inherently retards our OLs ability to keep him clean. It's not an indictment on Wilson. Because other scrambling QBs have similarly laid this handicap on their OLs historically. It goes hand in hand with some of the game breaking plays that he does make. We will get sacks that a traditional pocket passer would simply throw the ball away to avoid. That's never going to go away until Wilson's body breaks down and he no longer can extend plays. A scenario that is assured will occur at some point. He will end up having to learn how to deliver the ball early to avoid sacks that his legs will no longer account for.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Nor does it account for the fact that Wilson's scramble to extend plays style inherently retards our OLs ability to keep him clean.

This doesn't get nearly enough acknowledgement in criticisms of Wilson. His OL never knows where he's going to be in any given moment.

Nor does the fact that Wilson routinely breaks out of clean pockets and runs without having ever been in danger. Not on every play, but on quite a few.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

? So it's his fault he runs for his life????? ok

 

[Jville]

Nor does it account for the fact that Wilson's scramble to extend plays style inherently retards our OLs ability to keep him clean.

This doesn't get nearly enough acknowledgement in criticisms of Wilson. His OL never knows where he's going to be in any given moment.

Nor does the fact that Wilson routinely breaks out of clean pockets and runs without having ever been in danger. Not on every play, but on quite a few.

Extending plays makes receivers look good and offensive linemen look bad.

 

[Seymour]

? So it's his fault he runs for his life????? ok

Totally Wilsons fault he has to deal with this regularly. Damnit Russell...quit making those linemen "look bad".!!

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Good point, running for you life behind a Swiss Cheese O-Line is clearly the QB's fault. And yet he gets criticized for getting rid of the ball too soon, or for holding it too long. Behind that line, who wouldn't??
Regardless what happens, he clearly is at fault.

 

[Attyla the Hawk]

? So it's his fault he runs for his life????? ok

No. As I said, it's kind of the cost of being a mobile QB. It's been documented ad nauseum that Wilson does flee pockets that are still sound. And honestly we should all be fine with that.

It's insanely hard to be able to make decisions to scramble while still focusing downfield. It's not an exact science. And in truth if you look at other QBs who don't scramble, there are plenty of instances where they throw the ball early when they don't have to either.

The reality is, defensive linemen in the NFL are better than offensive linemen. And in 4 or 5 individual matchups on any given play, it's commonplace for one of those matchups to fall in the defensive players' favor. That happens. In every game for every team.

Russell has an inherent advantage, an elite NFL level advantage in terms of his elusiveness and ability to get free, Throw clean on the move and be able to process the play downfield while on the move. That's very rare. So we take advantage of that. In the course of doing so, sometimes the defensive player will close that distance and make a play. It's not a fault IMO. It's simply a natural byproduct of utilizing an advantage we hold over other teams in the NFL.

In many plays, there are a host of possible negative outcomes. The worst being turnovers. Wilson (and Seattle philosophically) will accept a sack if it means not throwing an interception. Wilson's interception numbers are insanely low. Particularly for a QB who faces the pressure he does. In the grand scheme, taking a sack is the lesser of the possible evils.

I neither find it fitting to criticize him for fleeing a pocket too early, nor do I think that he's always running for his life. These decisions have to be made on feel and his peripheral senses. And in the chaos of a play, those will most assuredly fail him multiple times in a 60+ play game.

I do concede, that improving pass protection would vastly improve Wilson's effectiveness. Not insofar as I would expect his sack numbers to plummet. More that I think that extra protection would reduce the number of plays where he begins to flee right at the time where his receivers are getting open. That extra beat more where he's not prematurely scrambling would result in a much improved ability to deliver the ball on time. I would instead expect to see fewer throw aways from the scramble, as well as fewer scramble/rushing attempts. Because being more comfortable and staying in the pocket a beat longer is going to invite more sacks. Either his feel of the pressure will be incorrect, or he'll be starting his scramble a bit later and be unable to get free of partially blocked/impeded rushers. In either case, I'd expect fewer sacks because he delivers the ball, but also more sacks in cases where he currently scrambles free. Basically incurring a bit of a wash in that regard.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

He's proven, at least to us that get how good he is, that he is also a good pocket passer. Would be nice if he actually had some time to look around before running for his life. I can't imagine any QB behind that line doesn't have a ticking clock in the back of his head that says "I need to get rid of the ball now since I'll likely get drilled in a second"

 

[Seymour]

.....I do concede, that improving pass protection would vastly improve Wilson's effectiveness. Not insofar as I would expect his sack numbers to plummet. More that I think that extra protection would reduce the number of plays where he begins to flee right at the time where his receivers are getting open.....

Undeniable unity for all Hawk fans with that statement.

 

[Jville]

My question is if we draft someone and don't know where we will play them and what they are best at what does that say for our evaluation process.

Either that or the continuing reality is the college game is not producing pro ready OLinemen. It's just not easy to find guys who can play capably in the pro game.

Which has been driven into Seattle fans by none other than Tom Cable. Funny how that works. Also funny how since we year after year, rank among the leagues worst pass blocking lines (highest ranking for Cable since here #22), that other teams are not having the same degree of problems as we are.

To answer all three questions:

1. We know where Pocic can play. This process is more about seeing what else he can do. There's no rush to put him at C, since we have Britt. Nor is there a rush to slot him at OG. Since we're fairly solid there too.

I'd stress, that this concept of trying OL players out along the line is not unique to Cable. This happens on every single team throughout the league. Every team does this. For the same reasons we do. You have to have flexibility because you have a limited number of roster spots. A team can really only afford maybe one or two guys who specialize in one position. Everyone else pretty much has to play everywhere else. Usually that specialist position is OC. So it's extra valuable that we have two players at OC, who may be able to play 4 positions. And it's worth noting too, that if Pocic does take to OG/OT, that allows us to address OC in a future draft. A position where getting quality players late is not altogether difficult or unreasonable to achieve. If Pocic can be more than just an OC, then we have extra flexibility down the line when we have to make future roster decisions.

2. It's not easy to find guys from college who are capable in the pros. It incredibly hard. And every team struggles with this aspect. It's one of the things noted about Pocic that is a departure from our prototype picks in the past. Pocic is very advanced in terms of his skill set compared to guys we've drafted before. I'd expect him to be a lot further along in this aspect.

3. Yeah, our lines haven't been superb. But unless you take things into context (specifically citing who we should have taken otherwise and who we would have sacrificed to get them), then we're all just using circular logic based on little more than fantasy. It's not funny how it works. It's basically a blind criticism with no regard to the decisions that all teams have to make in a draft or on a roster. Nor does it account for the fact that Wilson's scramble to extend plays style inherently retards our OLs ability to keep him clean. It's not an indictment on Wilson. Because other scrambling QBs have similarly laid this handicap on their OLs historically. It goes hand in hand with some of the game breaking plays that he does make. We will get sacks that a traditional pocket passer would simply throw the ball away to avoid. That's never going to go away until Wilson's body breaks down and he no longer can extend plays. A scenario that is assured will occur at some point. He will end up having to learn how to deliver the ball early to avoid sacks that his legs will no longer account for.

Nice Post :2thumbs: I'm not going to be so gentle with my remarks..

I think the blame fans lay on teachers and students is an expression of their frustration over holes in their own understanding of what they are struggling to witness and comprehend.

It's too bad that after weeks to reflect, there remains missing comprehension of draft objectives and results from the just completed draft. It the rational behind the picks doesn't strike right between the eyes, the deflection is that there must be something wrong with the scouting, the FO, or coaches. Such confusion doesn't lie with Tom Cable or Pete Carroll or any other coach of for that matter player. The confusion and frustration resides within the noisy mob.

Here is a question (clue) for the frustrated mob ......... which of the first three draft picks from this year's draft class was selected as a projection to new positions and roles? *

As for Justin Britt, what a job Tom Cable has done with him. Britt must be a heck of a student because Cable gave him the Grand Tour. Early on, Britt was privy to the leadership of Max Unger. Then, Britt accumulated significant game experience at tackle, guard and center at a time when the competition across the line in the NFC West has been excellent. He has played on the right side, the left side and in the middle. I can't imagine a better resume for a NFL center. Well done Cable & Britt ..... well done.

So why is there all this hand wringing over why Pocic was drafted and where is he going to play? It's just noise from those who, unfortunately, come up short on comprehending the program at the VMAC.

Me thinks they protest so much ........ they can no longer hear.

* [urltargetblank]http://seahawks.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=137241[/urltargetblank]

 

[Seymour]

.....As for Justin Britt, what a job Tom Cable has done with him. Britt must be a heck of a student because Cable gave him the Grand Tour. Early on, Britt was privy to the leadership of Max Unger. Then, Britt accumulated significant game experience at tackle, guard and center at a time when the competition across the line in the NFC West has been excellent. He has played on the right side, the left side and in the middle. I can't imagine a better resume for a NFL center. Well done Cable & Britt ..... well done.

So why is there all this hand wringing over why Pocic was drafted and where is he going to play? It's just noise from those who, unfortunately, come up short on comprehending the program at the VMAC.

Me thinks they protest so much ........ they can no longer hear.

* [urltargetblank]http://seahawks.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=137241[/urltargetblank]

First off, I like the Pocic pick but remain cautiously optimistic he will produce anytime soon. My comments are based on Cable's history here, and taking 1/4 - 1/2 the season to even find his best guys that he has had all of camp and pre-season to work with (outside of all the garbage he brought in).

2nd. Building a nice resume for Britt at the cost of pressures, sacks, injuries, and even games is a very nice gesture for him as he will need it when they let him walk next season to start this sh!t show all over again. :2thumbs:

 

[Jville]

The question remains .......
......... which of the first three draft picks from this year's draft class was selected as a projection to new positions and roles? *
and lets add a second question .............
.............. what is the #1 focus of a brotherhood?

* [urltargetblank]http://seahawks.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=137241[/urltargetblank]

 

[FidelisHawk]

Good point, running for you life behind a Swiss Cheese O-Line is clearly the QB's fault. And yet he gets criticized for getting rid of the ball too soon, or for holding it too long. Behind that line, who wouldn't??
Regardless what happens, he clearly is at fault.

Well yes, hobbled and playing behind this “swiss cheese” offensive line, he had his career best sack percentage (7%) while having his career highest pass attempts (546) and career fewest rushing attempts (72).

So forced to throw from the pocket and not scramble, his sacks went down and his pass completion percentage went up (career high 66.7%).

Now taking away his most threatening weapon by forcing him to be a pocket passer may not be the best choice for the team or him, but at least by this small sample size, Russell can be (and most likely is) his own worst enemy and certainly puts more more stress on an OL.

That said I wouldn’t have it any other way. I believe for every time he escapes the pocket when he shouldn’t and causes a sack, he more than makes up for it by making a chunk play with his feet or a throw on the run.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Just love the way he is always looking downfield, instead of just immediately looking to run.

 

[Jville]

Good point, running for you life behind a Swiss Cheese O-Line is clearly the QB's fault. And yet he gets criticized for getting rid of the ball too soon, or for holding it too long. Behind that line, who wouldn't??
Regardless what happens, he clearly is at fault.

Well yes, hobbled and playing behind this “swiss cheese” offensive line, he had his career best sack percentage (7%) while having his career highest pass attempts (546) and career fewest rushing attempts (72).

So forced to throw from the pocket and not scramble, his sacks went down and his pass completion percentage went up (career high 66.7%).

Now taking away his most threatening weapon by forcing him to be a pocket passer may not be the best choice for the team or him, but at least by this small sample size, Russell can be (and most likely is) his own worst enemy and certainly puts more more stress on an OL.

That said I wouldn’t have it any other way. I believe for every time he escapes the pocket when he shouldn’t and causes a sack, he more than makes up for it by making a chunk play with his feet or a throw on the run.

Love Russell Wilson ...... but ......you guys are so lost.

 

[FidelisHawk]

Love Russell Wilson ...... but ......you guys are so lost.

Well, now I am lost.....????