Where did Pete go wrong?

[bigcc]

Yeah but zero championships after the first is my point. It worked at first then it didn't. Even winning seasons without a championship is a failure, ask the Mariners.

Brother I have terrible news for you if you think it's super bowl or bust.

Out of curiosity how many seasons of leeway does Macdonald get until he needs to win a superbowl or be replaced? Enlighten me

 

[CouchLogic]

Yawn.

Am I the only one that doesn't care about these tired ass topics? Game decisions from ten years ago...Pete's bad habits...etc.

Time to move on folks. New coach, new era.

 

[CallMeADawg]

Yawn.

Am I the only one that doesn't care about these tired ass topics? Game decisions from ten years ago...Pete's bad habits...etc.

Time to move on folks. New coach, new era.

Totally with you.

 

[strohmin]

I'm right there with you about the personnel, I'm defending the play solely from x's and o's.

I've always had a hunch that russ audibled to it, he is giving the ol a switch before the play, I'm guessing code for pass blocking but that's only a guess.

Rewatch the play as much as it hurts dude, it was a TERRIBLE throw, some jv toss.

BTW Luke kuechly thought it was a great call too from a scheme perspective. Again if you throw it low it SHOULD be a very very low risk play.

It always amazes me that carroll somehow gets the fault when russ handed the ball over throwing that duck, that would have been a heroic catch even if butler wasn't there

After seeing how russ has done in Denver I don't know how anyone can tell me with a straight face that Pete was the problem and not russ

I wont argue that it was a terrible throw but Carroll gets the blame because he took the blame and he is the head coach. Why didnt they use Chris Mathews who was a big body that had over 100 yards already that game and was making spectacular plays instead of Lockette or Baldwin who didnt get targeted omce thay game. If Russell was to blame for it by audibling to that play and making that terrible throw then he handled it by absolving Russ of any blame, handing him the contract he wanted, Getting rid of anyone that even thought about not liking Russ and pretty much put the whole offense in Russell's hands. Carroll rightfully gets the blame because he is the head coach and this all happened under his watch and he did nothing to make things right at any point after that.

 

[strohmin]

Brother I have terrible news for you if you think it's super bowl or bust.

Out of curiosity how many seasons of leeway does Macdonald get until he needs to win a superbowl or be replaced? Enlighten me

How long did you want Carroll coaching for? After 7 years of predictable mediocrity, it was time to try something new. Carroll's tenure after that superbowl is not great because there was no real progress during that time.We didnt win a single meaningful playoff game after that superbowl. We beat some teams who lucked into the playoffs but get whooped by an average playoff team the next round.

Macdonald should get atleast 2 years to build the team his way and if there is no progress from year 1 to year 2 then his job will be called for too.

 

[GemCity]

He's had a total of 3 post season wins in damn near a decade. Gushing over regular season records is the kind of thinking that has the team in the state its currently in. You can't keep giving people chances just because the team is just good enough to make the post season on a regular basis. There needs to be growth and results at some point.

Boom

 

[hoxrox]

He's had a total of 3 post season wins in damn near a decade. Gushing over regular season records is the kind of thinking that has the team in the state its currently in. You can't keep giving people chances just because the team is just good enough to make the post season on a regular basis. There needs to be growth and results at some point.

Same thing could be said for RW. His post season stats were abysmal.

 

[SeaWolv]

2nd and goal, State Farm Stadium, Glendale AZ, 2/1/15.

 

[olyfan63]

I confess I was a big Pete fan, and it's only in hindsight that I'm able to assess his last 8-ish years honestly. Pete Carroll led the Seahawks into mediocrity purgatory after the two Super Bowls. "Mediocre Forever".

Failure #1: Pete's Poor GM Decisions
The Seahawks should be about +6 impact players above where the roster is now, without Pete's abominable GM decisions, probably overruling John Schneider on many occasions. Pete overpaid a limited QB as if he was "unlimited", made ridiculous franchise-crippling trades, giving away high picks, for players who screwed the Seahawks salary cap and hardly played, while pissing away major draft capital. (Harvin, Adams)

What draft capital remained, Pete then pissed away, selecting below average players like LJ Collier, Malik McDowell, Dee Eskridge, Marquise Blair, Cody Barton. (there were some good picks too of course)

Then, for the cherry on top, Pete then pissed away more key draft capital with questionable in-season trades for "rentals" to try to win a couple more games to prop himself up for end-of-season performance evaluations, again mortgaging the future.

On Pete's watch the Hawks gave away draft capital, overpaid underperformers, and put the Seahawks in salary cap hell. (Compare that to our division rivals the 49ers, where during that same time frame 49ers acquired multiple field-tilting guys like Bosa, Run-CMC, Deebo, Fred Warner, etc.) Pete's GM influence, over time, became a net negative, leaving the team underequipped on talent, overpaying much of that talent, and in salary cap hell. Pete initially won by having a cheap-but-good QB and having a large number of players massively overperform their contracts. That advantage faded quickly after SB49.

Failure #2: Pete failed to adjust his defensive schemes to the reality of defending new McShanahanVay offenses, notably demonstrated by getting swept by both the 49ers and Rams this last year, after not being able to get off the field against those offenses when it mattered.

Failure #3: Hypocrisy in applying and demonstrating standards and rules to different players and staff undermined Pete's message and culture
- Violation of "protect the team", Bevell should have either publicly apologized or been fired for "He could have been stronger to the ball" re Ricardo Lockette after SB49 pick.
- Not holding Russell to same standards as other players

Failure #4: Excessive loyalty to underperforming coordinators
-DCs KNJ and Hurtt stand out for this

Failure #5: Failure to bring in good coordinators, outside minds with new ideas on the Defensive side, going with internal hires who couldn't rise above Pete's older system
- And, when he did, the new schitt didn't really work, that "defensive guru" then moved on, but got fired by his new employer within roughly a year (Sean Desai)

Failure #6: Handicapping his coordinators with micromanaging (This one is less clear to me, but often repeated on Seahawks.net)

 

[MontanaHawk05]

I don't understand this sort of thinking. We've been getting throttled by the 9ers and Rams for years. Pete's great at not letting his teams fall to 3-14 but is that success? You're satisfied with a 9 win season and then getting hammered in the wildcard round? I'm not.

I never said I was.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

I won't deny any of the issues you brought up, but...

Carroll is absolutely, unquestionably the best Seahawks head coach ever. There is NO denying that.

I don't see how this translates to "get rid of him". I just don't. It's like saying that Toyota vehicles have a great reputation for durability, let's get rid of ours. Huh? You don't think the first part should influence the second at least a little bit?

If what Pete has accomplished is mediocrity, then the entire league outside of Brady and Mahomes is mediocre. You're right that our defense has been bad and we've struggled to put together playoff runs, but that doesn't cancel out Pete's overall body of work and how it compares to the rest of the league. If anything, his record and the # of playoff games we've reached DESPITE the mediocre roster and lack of a QBOTF just illustrates that there was a case to keep him around and allow him to keep building on the last two very solid drafts, not to mention get a QBOTF.

If you ask me, guys like Tomlin, Payton, and Coughlin should be welcome to keep coaching until they feel like retiring. No matter how many impatient fans are trying to infer that Super Bowl appearances happen by accident, you can't find anyone other than Belichick and Reid who are doing any better.

I'll just end with this: a lot of Rams fans are starting to sound like this board. McVay is NOT outperforming Pete overall.

 

[AnimeAmore]

Stubborn and stuck in his ways, was never a disciplinarian, lacked quality depth to hold starters accountable, inability to adjust midgame, "win forever" became "win 8-9 games at the expense of the future" and the future eventually caught up with him.

 

[pittpnthrs]

After seeing how russ has done in Denver I don't know how anyone can tell me with a straight face that Pete was the problem and not russ

So 10 years after the play is your example? Good lord.

For the life of me, i'll never understand how anybody can defend a slant against a jammed, goal line defense. Hell, even if he catches the ball, he still doesn't score. The play call was horrendous.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Brother I have terrible news for you if you think it's super bowl or bust.

Out of curiosity how many seasons of leeway does Macdonald get until he needs to win a superbowl or be replaced? Enlighten me

As long as growth and progress is represented, he gets leeway. There hasen't been any of that in Seattle for 8 years now. Team was trending in the wrong direction.

 

[RolandDeschain]

So 10 years after the play is your example? Good lord.

For the life of me, i'll never understand how anybody can defend a slant against a jammed, goal line defense. Hell, even if he catches the ball, he still doesn't score. The play call was horrendous.

Not to mention relying on an undersized receiver to perform a key block. It was idiocy in like literally three different ways.

 

[RiverDog]

Yawn.

Am I the only one that doesn't care about these tired ass topics? Game decisions from ten years ago...Pete's bad habits...etc.

Time to move on folks. New coach, new era.

Then why are you posting in it? If it's time to move on, then move on. If you're so tired of these topics, then don't perpetuate the discussion by adding your own comments.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Same thing could be said for RW. His post season stats were abysmal.

Sure they were. Any QB's stats would be abysmal trying to follow those sad game day plans.

 

[RiverDog]

I confess I was a big Pete fan, and it's only in hindsight that I'm able to assess his last 8-ish years honestly. Pete Carroll led the Seahawks into mediocrity purgatory after the two Super Bowls. "Mediocre Forever".

Failure #1: Pete's Poor GM Decisions
The Seahawks should be about +6 impact players above where the roster is now, without Pete's abominable GM decisions, probably overruling John Schneider on many occasions. Pete overpaid a limited QB as if he was "unlimited", made ridiculous franchise-crippling trades, giving away high picks, for players who screwed the Seahawks salary cap and hardly played, while pissing away major draft capital. (Harvin, Adams)

What draft capital remained, Pete then pissed away, selecting below average players like LJ Collier, Malik McDowell, Dee Eskridge, Marquise Blair, Cody Barton. (there were some good picks too of course)

Then, for the cherry on top, Pete then pissed away more key draft capital with questionable in-season trades for "rentals" to try to win a couple more games to prop himself up for end-of-season performance evaluations, again mortgaging the future.

On Pete's watch the Hawks gave away draft capital, overpaid underperformers, and put the Seahawks in salary cap hell. (Compare that to our division rivals the 49ers, where during that same time frame 49ers acquired multiple field-tilting guys like Bosa, Run-CMC, Deebo, Fred Warner, etc.) Pete's GM influence, over time, became a net negative, leaving the team underequipped on talent, overpaying much of that talent, and in salary cap hell. Pete initially won by having a cheap-but-good QB and having a large number of players massively overperform their contracts. That advantage faded quickly after SB49.

Failure #2: Pete failed to adjust his defensive schemes to the reality of defending new McShanahanVay offenses, notably demonstrated by getting swept by both the 49ers and Rams this last year, after not being able to get off the field against those offenses when it mattered.

Failure #3: Hypocrisy in applying and demonstrating standards and rules to different players and staff undermined Pete's message and culture
- Violation of "protect the team", Bevell should have either publicly apologized or been fired for "He could have been stronger to the ball" re Ricardo Lockette after SB49 pick.
- Not holding Russell to same standards as other players

Failure #4: Excessive loyalty to underperforming coordinators
-DCs KNJ and Hurtt stand out for this

Failure #5: Failure to bring in good coordinators, outside minds with new ideas on the Defensive side, going with internal hires who couldn't rise above Pete's older system
- And, when he did, the new schitt didn't really work, that "defensive guru" then moved on, but got fired by his new employer within roughly a year (Sean Desai)

Failure #6: Handicapping his coordinators with micromanaging (This one is less clear to me, but often repeated on Seahawks.net)

Those are really good comments, and I'll add a few more.

The Jimmy Graham trade, where he not only traded away a Pro Bowl center at the peak of his career without a plan to replace him AND a 4th round draft pick for a soft tight end who couldn't block then let him walk three years later. The burning of high draft picks on high injury risk, 2 down RB's and a dime a dozen WR's at the expense of offensive and defensive linemen. These past few years, we've gotten murdered in the trenches, and it's primarily due to the lack of emphasis on the big uglies.

We were caught in an endless loop, never quite good enough to compete for a SB yet just good enough to perpetuate the illusion that we were just a player or two away from getting over the hump.

My comments aren't intending to denigrate what Pete gave us, which was the best period of Seahawk football in franchise history. But it was time to move on. I never thought that Jody would have the nerve to fire him, but boy, was I wrong.

 

[Atradees]

It was a great run. When coaches hire and fire coordinators and start believing in there own press..... some of those colossally bad bad drafts..I believe the coordinators had a large say in those picks. Holmgren lasted only ten years. It happens. To think we had two coaches in 24 years? Thats a sign of success. Mora jr dint count

 

[Jville]

You and I, brother, are going to have to agree to disagree. Let's not cross the line into name calling.

Nobody is calling you names.

Of course, there is a double standard at work. Slander and name calling is embraced in the absence of rational as long as it is directed at players and coaches and front office and owners and journalist who have little to nothing to do with this forum.

That double standard behavior is what I was addressing.