Tical21":3d054vn9 said:
I'll fully admit that he produces like them. I can't find you the numbers of man vs zone, because they don't exist. I did analysis of 4 games from 2015 and 6 games from 2017 in a similar debate, and found that the percentage of the time that we actually saw zone was wayyy different than the PFF statisticians said that we saw zone. So I would have to watch 4 seasons myself and chart every play to get you that analysis.
You know elite QB play when you see it. We've seen plenty of elite QB's over the years. Against zone, elite QB's can often make it look easy. They hit their back foot, ball comes out, quite often. Do we ever really see that? How many times in Russ' career has a commentator noticed that he manipulates a defender with his eyes, or that he has set defenders up? He can do it against man-1, but that's really about it. If you're not going to go back and look at the all-22, while you're watching the next game, try to figure out what coverage the other team is in pre-snap. IF you think they're in zone, watch what happens.
He might be an elite player, I'm not saying there are many guys I'd rather have, but to make a claim that he is an elite passer is a little baffling.
You know elite systems, when you see it.
Look I know what you mean Tical and totally understand where you are coming from. Brees, Brady, Rivers etc. those types are superior to him in that one area. He isn't going to sit back in the pocket the whole game, and pick apart a zone as good as those guys. He doesn't posses the quick trigger those guys have, he doesn't process it as quickly.
I think a lot of that boils down to being stuck in Pete's system with Bevell. I am fairly confident had he been drafted by Andy Reed as an example he would be far more advanced in this area.
(See Goff w/Fisher --> w/McVay) (See Trubisky w/Fox -> w/Nagy).
Coaching plays a huge factor in this. The Pete Carroll -> don't turn it over (don't take unnecessary risks)
Because when Wilson is let off the leash when they have no choice but to throw or lose the game. He is otherworldly statistically. 4th qtr comebacks, and game winning drives. You do not put any stock into that?
And there is also a flip side to that coin.
Those statues don't possess the running production, and the ability to play behind Cable O-Lines and be an escape artist on a consistent basis for six seasons. Yes, they would've helped mitigate the damage at times, with quicker decision making, but in the end they would have died, or retired. It was unsustainable. Wilson was so damn amazing Carroll naively stuck with the fable that was Cable for far too long because he was performing at high level despite the dumpster fire. WILSON KEPT CABLE & BEVELL EMPLOYED, that is how good he was/is.
Brady & Brees are not the same players when under pressure. Wilson isn't either, but he some how found / finds a way to produce in spite of it, and keep up with those guys. That does not impress you? These guys that you deem so amazing in well oiled machine offensive systems. Yet there is Wilson hanging with them, and rushing for 1700 yards in the process.
Watch Derek Carr two-three years ago when he had a great O-Line, many were considering him for MVP. Now he has been Cable'd. It didn't stop Wilson for 6 years.
Look at Newton's numbers outside of when he played behind the #2 O-Line. Look at Matt Ryan's numbers when he didn't have strong O-Lines. Look at Luck outside of this year. These guys could not survive for 6 seasons under that kind of duress (Luck already proved that). Wilson didn't only survive, he thrived and produced at a high level.
Brady & Brees production goes down playing behind Cable O-Lines than their current situation. Wilson's production would go up playing with Payton or McDaniel in that situation. It went up with Schottenhiemer who isn't a savant when it comes to the passing game.
Wilson is the one being handicapped here.
Yet he finds a way to statistically keep up. He belongs in the group.
PS Ben Roethlisbeger is a fraud.
