Nr 1 deep passer in the league..well well...

[Lagartixa]

Point is, great QBs pull out wins when the chips are down.

Like at the goal line late in the fourth quarter of a Super Bowl when down by four? I guess we can agree it's a shame the Seahawks didn't have a great QB in Super Bowl XLIX.

See thats the problem with so many, they have to have data points for everything. Take all the stats and numbers you need for Geno Montana and it still equates to 9-8. Average. When he can lead a team to something better than that and a post season win somewhere along the line, get back to me.

The whole point of the conversation was debating whether a good\great QB gets better results than an average QB. Smith had a very good first half of a season last year and fans now have a misconception that he's now a good to great QB although he obviously could have done better and the win\loss record clearly shows that.

I fully expect Smith to be roughly league-average this season. But with the contract Smith signed, a league-average performance will be a huge bargain for the Seahawks because his 2023 cap number is $10.1M.

Things could be a lot worse. It could have been the Seahawks overpaying Russell Wilson for well-below-league-average performance. It would have been even worse than what the Broncos got (which is already a $#!+ sandwich for them), because Wilson made it clear he was willing to take less to play for the Broncos than he would have had to get to stay with the Seahawks (plus he needed an amount of "control" the Seahawks were never going to give him).

Even though I'm expecting something in the neighborhood of league-average performance from Smith in 2023, and for Wilson to be noticeably less bad than he was last season with Payton implementing the "Peteball" (which would more accurately be called "Russball") approach that has been shown to be the only way to get positive value out of Wilson, I expect Wilson to be less productive than Smith again, and while Wilson's cap number is "only" $22M this year and "only" $35.4M in 2024, he is unlikely to be worth his cap number ever again in his career. I expect Wilson not to be an NFL starting quarterback by 2025, when the Broncos can actually gain a little cap space by cutting him with "just" $49.6M in dead money. I don't think he'll want to be on a roster for backup-QB money, so I fully expect him to be out of the league in 2025.

 

[CallMeADawg]

See thats the problem with so many, they have to have data points for everything. Take all the stats and numbers you need for Geno Montana and it still equates to 9-8. Average. When he can lead a team to something better than that and a post season win somewhere along the line, get back to me.

The whole point of the conversation was debating whether a good\great QB gets better results than an average QB. Smith had a very good first half of a season last year and fans now have a misconception that he's now a good to great QB although he obviously could have done better and the win\loss record clearly shows that.

Your allergy to data proves your position is nothing more than you making things up to suit your own narrative.

 

[scutterhawk]

You missed the conversation completely. We were talking about the ability to bring a team back and to rise above the implemented system when the time calls for it. Geno wasnt good at it last season. I dont feel he can do the things that other good QBs can and that includes taking the Seahawks anywhere further than a first or second round loss in the post season. We'll find out.

He missed NOTHING, your ever morphing argument is that a good Quarterback is able to pull out wins in the waning seconds of the game ((only IF the Defense KEEPS the scoring close enough for that 'Comeback' to even happen))
FACT: Soso & even crappy Quarterbacks have won multiple games & even Championships because THE TEAM AROUND THEM MADE PLAYS that kept them close enough to make THAT PLAY, and hell, sometimes Championships are won by some outstanding RUNNING BACK, or KICKERS play= T-E-A-M.
Even GREAT Quarterbacks lose games BECAUSE THE T-E-A-M around them FAILS...See how that works?

 

[WarHawks]

Bullsh*t ^ Russell Frikkin' Wilson didn't get-er-dun in 2020, when he was HEALTHY...Sh*t Defenses take their QB's down with them...This ain't no exclusive Geno Smith problem, I mean hey, How the hell did All-time "Greatest Quarterback" Tom Brady not "Pull Out a Score" to win IN SEVERAL LOSSES last year, EH?

Obnoxious.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Still................how pathetic. But entertaining at least. Best of both worlds. He's gone, which is a very good thing. And people are still obsessing over him 16 months later. This is a blast.

 

[olyfan63]

Let's not forget that Wilson led the "fourth quarter comeback" against the 49ers in the NFC Championship game.

Yes, I put it in quotes because we scored the game winning touchdown in the first two minutes of the fourth quarter, but it goes down in the record books as a fourth quarter comeback, thus proving how "clutch" Wilson was (hooray for the marks!)

So we need a stat for "GWS" (Game-Winning Stop) for defenses who stop an opponents would-be game-winning or game-tying drive. That of course leads to GWSP, Game-Winning Stop Percentage, or what Percentage of the time a team's defense stopped an opposing offense from winning or tying in the final "n" minutes, "n" TBD. Would be an interesting stat to try to define, devil-in-the-details thing. The 2022 Seattle D blew more than one GWS opportunities that robbed Geno of what would have been GWD/4QC stat adds. In that 2013 postseason NFCCG, "The Tip" was a clear GWS that erased Wilson's other failures during the game.

I think Geno and the Hawks will have a high-scoring offense this coming year. Pete thinks so too, IMO, that we'll see other teams passing lots in the 4th quarter to catch up, so Pete and John focused on depth and quality of DBs and pass rushers to thwart those drives with sacks, incompletions, and picks. Geno will get screwed on 4QC credit for that type of win, like in the 2022 Lions game where Geno carried the defense in that 48-45 win. Geno and the Hawks O carried the defense that day, because they repeatedly scored TDs to stay 2 scores ahead, when everyone knew the Lions would march down the field against the woeful Seattle D for a TD on their next possession. A QB carrying the defense. What a concept. Russell had a defense that carried him. Geno had to carry the defense in 2022.

 

[olyfan63]

Like at the goal line late in the fourth quarter of a Super Bowl when down by four? I guess we can agree it's a shame the Seahawks didn't have a great QB in Super Bowl XLIX.



I fully expect Smith to be roughly league-average this season. But with the contract Smith signed, a league-average performance will be a huge bargain for the Seahawks because his 2023 cap number is $10.1M.

Things could be a lot worse. It could have been the Seahawks overpaying Russell Wilson for well-below-league-average performance. It would have been even worse than what the Broncos got (which is already a $#!+ sandwich for them), because Wilson made it clear he was willing to take less to play for the Broncos than he would have had to get to stay with the Seahawks (plus he needed an amount of "control" the Seahawks were never going to give him).

Even though I'm expecting something in the neighborhood of league-average performance from Smith in 2023, and for Wilson to be noticeably less bad than he was last season with Payton implementing the "Peteball" (which would more accurately be called "Russball") approach that has been shown to be the only way to get positive value out of Wilson, I expect Wilson to be less productive than Smith again, and while Wilson's cap number is "only" $22M this year and "only" $35.4M in 2024, he is unlikely to be worth his cap number ever again in his career. I expect Wilson not to be an NFL starting quarterback by 2025, when the Broncos can actually gain a little cap space by cutting him with "just" $49.6M in dead money. I don't think he'll want to be on a roster for backup-QB money, so I fully expect him to be out of the league in 2025.

"Russball", love it!! Now it's become clear that Pete had no choice but to play "Russball", what we called "Peteball" was about Russell's limitations, not Pete's preferred offense.

Just imagining the dialogue inside Pete's head... "We'll wear their defense down the first 3 quarters with Marshawn, and then Russell and his sandlot scramble drill can operate against a tired and slow defense, to pull out the win!" Russell's game, in his prime, with read-option runs, was actually quite lethal for tired 4th quarter defenses. So Pete's calculation makes lots of sense in hindsight.

 

[olyfan63]

NOPE ^ You're discounting Richard Shermanand his T-I-P that sealed the win in that that game....TEAM EFFORT got us to THAT Super-Bowl, it wasn't>> ONLY<<->>RUSSELL WILSON<<< all by his lonesome that advanced us to the SB in that NFC Championship-game....Honesty on this matter is of paramount IMPORTANTCE.

I get so sick and tired of people discounting Malcolm Smith and his P-I-C-K that sealed the win... TEAM effort, Sherman tips it, Malcolm Smith catches it... If Smith doesn't trail the play, expecting a tip, being ready, and then CATCH the tip, 49ers have at least 3 more shots, with plenty of time and 2 timeouts.
OK, so slightly tongue in cheek with the fake outrage, simply further emphasizing the TEAM aspect. After all, most DBs are DBs (or LBs in Smith's case) because they can't catch the ball worth schitt, couldn't play WR. If Smith ball-watched and failed to trail the play or dropped it, history could be quite different.

That 4th-and-7 TD earlier in that NFCCG was a brilliant example of TEAM also, everyone saw the 49er lineman jump offsides, and all the WRs instantly changed their routes to 4 verts, Wilson hits Kearse for the TD. WRs and QB on same page. Brilliant!

 

[BASF]

So we need a stat for "GWS" (Game-Winning Stop) for defenses who stop an opponents would-be game-winning or game-tying drive. That of course leads to GWSP, Game-Winning Stop Percentage, or what Percentage of the time a team's defense stopped an opposing offense from winning or tying in the final "n" minutes, "n" TBD. Would be an interesting stat to try to define, devil-in-the-details thing. The 2022 Seattle D blew more than one GWS opportunities that robbed Geno of what would have been GWD/4QC stat adds. In that 2013 postseason NFCCG, "The Tip" was a clear GWS that erased Wilson's other failures during the game.

I am all for this idea and am surprised that no one has ever made it happen before. It certainly seems like the league has taken it upon themselves to make every game come down to the last few minutes to increase and maintain ratings. It also certainly appears that the NFL wants ninety point games with all of the passing friendly rules that have been approved in the past decade. Defenses should be recognized for being able to stop these game winning drives in the last say four minutes when it is a one score game. They definitely have the deck stacked against them.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Wilson? He had a hard time hitting receivers that were standing right in front of him last season. He had one of the best defenses in the league and still only won four games.

The Broncos are pretty much the opposite of the Seahawks, good D but not much on the offensive side of the ball. Take Wilson losing his two best weapons early on and a new head coach that was clueless and your going to have those type of results.

Besides all out that, we're talking about a Wilson in his prime so last season is a moot point anyways.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Like at the goal line late in the fourth quarter of a Super Bowl when down by four? I guess we can agree it's a shame the Seahawks didn't have a great QB in Super Bowl XLIX.



I fully expect Smith to be roughly league-average this season. But with the contract Smith signed, a league-average performance will be a huge bargain for the Seahawks because his 2023 cap number is $10.1M.

Things could be a lot worse. It could have been the Seahawks overpaying Russell Wilson for well-below-league-average performance. It would have been even worse than what the Broncos got (which is already a $#!+ sandwich for them), because Wilson made it clear he was willing to take less to play for the Broncos than he would have had to get to stay with the Seahawks (plus he needed an amount of "control" the Seahawks were never going to give him).

Even though I'm expecting something in the neighborhood of league-average performance from Smith in 2023, and for Wilson to be noticeably less bad than he was last season with Payton implementing the "Peteball" (which would more accurately be called "Russball") approach that has been shown to be the only way to get positive value out of Wilson, I expect Wilson to be less productive than Smith again, and while Wilson's cap number is "only" $22M this year and "only" $35.4M in 2024, he is unlikely to be worth his cap number ever again in his career. I expect Wilson not to be an NFL starting quarterback by 2025, when the Broncos can actually gain a little cap space by cutting him with "just" $49.6M in dead money. I don't think he'll want to be on a roster for backup-QB money, so I fully expect him to be out of the league in 2025.

There isnt a QB in the world that would have been successful on the worst play call of all time.

I agree with most of what you say after that though. I agree that Smith will more than likely be around the average mark this upcoming season and Wilson will improve some. I do believe he'll still be playing in 2025 though. He has something to prove at this point and if nothing else, the guy is determined.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Your allergy to data proves your position is nothing more than you making things up to suit your own narrative.

All those great numbers and still only 9-8 with 5 or more losses being one score games. Hmmm.

 

[pittpnthrs]

He missed NOTHING, your ever morphing argument is that a good Quarterback is able to pull out wins in the waning seconds of the game ((only IF the Defense KEEPS the scoring close enough for that 'Comeback' to even happen))
FACT: Soso & even crappy Quarterbacks have won multiple games & even Championships because THE TEAM AROUND THEM MADE PLAYS that kept them close enough to make THAT PLAY, and hell, sometimes Championships are won by some outstanding RUNNING BACK, or KICKERS play= T-E-A-M.
Even GREAT Quarterbacks lose games BECAUSE THE T-E-A-M around them FAILS...See how that works?

Guess i'm just spoiled by Wilson's past (post 2015) of doing it so often with crap game plans, the minus of other great players to rely on, and defenses that werent great at stopping the other teams when needed.

 

[GGotskill]

All those great numbers and still only 9-8 with 5 or more losses being one score games. Hmmm.

How many of those games did Geno take the lead only to see the defense lose it late in the 4th quarter? Context matters.

 

[Hollandhawk]

There isnt a QB in the world that would have been successful on the worst play call of all time.

I agree with most of what you say after that though. I agree that Smith will more than likely be around the average mark this upcoming season and Wilson will improve some. I do believe he'll still be playing in 2025 though. He has something to prove at this point and if nothing else, the guy is determined.

If only Wilson could’ve audibled out of the “worst play call of all time”. I’d say that’s what great quarterbacks do. Wouldn’t you?

 

[Year of The Hawk]

The Broncos are pretty much the opposite of the Seahawks, good D but not much on the offensive side of the ball. Take Wilson losing his two best weapons early on and a new head coach that was clueless and your going to have those type of results.

Besides all out that, we're talking about a Wilson in his prime so last season is a moot point anyways.

So you are saying that there is more to winning than just the quarterback. Got it. Thank you.

 

[BlueTalon]

The Broncos are pretty much the opposite of the Seahawks, good D but not much on the offensive side of the ball. Take Wilson losing his two best weapons early on and a new head coach that was clueless and your going to have those type of results.

Besides all out that, we're talking about a Wilson in his prime so last season is a moot point anyways.

I was responding to your comment, "All of that and he still would have won 10 or more games last season." It's not a moot point in the context of your statement about Wilson's projected output last season on this team compared to Geno.

 

[keasley45]

You missed the conversation completely. We were talking about the ability to bring a team back and to rise above the implemented system when the time calls for it. Geno wasnt good at it last season. I dont feel he can do the things that other good QBs can and that includes taking the Seahawks anywhere further than a first or second round loss in the post season. We'll find out.

Didnt miss a thing.

You also didn't feel Geno could be anything close to a remotely serviceable qb before last year, and you qualify last year as just an aberration for an otherwise mediocre qb.

You also say things like 'he can't bring us back' and cite Russ as an example of a great qb because he could. Yet his knack for the comeback has been stymied for a few years now. There was no comeback against the cards, bills, giants, etc, when he was at the peak of his powers in 2020. And the 'comebacks' he had tallied were games we trailed in in good part because of an inability to move the ball through the air consistently.

Russ also didn't do a ton of 'coming back' against the likes of the Vikings, Colts, Titans, etc, his last year here when again, prior to his injury, his supporters were claiming he was still a top 5 qb.

In Fact, the dude owes the vast majority of his 'comebacks' (and reputation for such) to his first 3 years with the LOB and Lynch.

Russ was great at the comeback WHEN HE HAD A DEFENSE TO KEEP THE GAME CLOSE.

Russ won more than one game in the playoffs WHEN HE HAD A DEFENSE TO OVERCOME OUR 3 and out streaks because of his perennial inability to win on 3rd down through the air.

You can't break a thing and then hang your reputation on being able to fix it. Which is exactly what he did for his time here. Maybe you haven't been paying attention, but he wasnt great running a regular offense, couldn't move the chains reliably, and had a coach who let him fuddle around for vast stretches of a game, knowing he could win it with a defense, a runing back, and THEN, eventually if push came to shove, let Russ run around and play sandlot to score TDs.

It worked when it worked, and then it didnt.

But for you to say that THAT type of play was superior...

It was fun to watch. And we won with it while defenses were stretched to contain a guy they couldn't scheme for because he didn't run a scheme.

To each their own.

Best of luck to he and the Broncos.

 

[Rainger]

If only Wilson could’ve audibled out of the “worst play call of all time”. I’d say that’s what great quarterbacks do. Wouldn’t you?

Or throw it where only the receiver could catch it or recognise the D and look to the second read, or throw it away, or do what usually did bail out and run.

Not the worst call of all time worst QB play of all time.

 

[hawkfan68]

Didnt miss a thing.

You also didn't feel Geno could be anything close to a remotely serviceable qb before last year, and you qualify last year as just an aberration for an otherwise mediocre qb.

You also say things like 'he can't bring us back' and cite Russ as an example of a great qb because he could. Yet his knack for the comeback has been stymied for a few years now. There was no comeback against the cards, bills, giants, etc, when he was at the peak of his powers in 2020. And the 'comebacks' he had tallied were games we trailed in in good part because of an inability to move the ball through the air consistently.

Russ also didn't do a ton of 'coming back' against the likes of the Vikings, Colts, Titans, etc, his last year here when again, prior to his injury, his supporters were claiming he was still a top 5 qb.

In Fact, the dude owes the vast majority of his 'comebacks' (and reputation for such) to his first 3 years with the LOB and Lynch.

Russ was great at the comeback WHEN HE HAD A DEFENSE TO KEEP THE GAME CLOSE.

Russ won more than one game in the playoffs WHEN HE HAD A DEFENSE TO OVERCOME OUR 3 and out streaks because of his perennial inability to win on 3rd down through the air.

You can't break a thing and then hang your reputation on being able to fix it. Which is exactly what he did for his time here. Maybe you haven't been paying attention, but he wasnt great running a regular offense, couldn't move the chains reliably, and had a coach who let him fuddle around for vast stretches of a game, knowing he could win it with a defense, a runing back, and THEN, eventually if push came to shove, let Russ run around and play sandlot to score TDs.

It worked when it worked, and then it didnt.

But for you to say that THAT type of play was superior...

It was fun to watch. And we won with it while defenses were stretched to contain a guy they couldn't scheme for because he didn't run a scheme.

To each their own.

Best of luck to he and the Broncos.

Since you mentioned the Colts game in RW's last season, he didn't have to come back in that one. They were never that behind. Colts led by a FG early in 1st Qtr. The Seahawks won that game by 12 points. In that game, RW was 18/23, 254 yards, 4 TDs. I would say that RW was outstanding in that game. https://www.footballdb.com/games/boxscore/seattle-seahawks-vs-indianapolis-colts-2021091207

Geno in his last four drives vs. 49ers fumbled in the red zone, had a 3 an out, threw an INT (in his end of the field), and then finally took a team for TD once the game was out of reach.

Seattle Seahawks vs. San Francisco 49ers Live Score and Stats - January 14, 2023 Gametracker

Live NFL scores at CBSSports.com. Check out the NFL scoreboard, box scores and game recaps.

www.cbssports.com

Both players have helped the team win and both players have had games where they weren't playing their best. As the current Seahawk QB, I hope Geno is working to get better. I really don't give a rats ass what RW does. He's Denver's problem now.

The Seahawks won 104 regular season games with Russ at QB. They averaged 10 wins a year with him there. So they were winning with him. Prior to him joining they were averaging 7 wins per season and that includes having Lynch, Baldwin, LOB, and whomever else you want to bring up to discredit RW's impact in turning a 7 win team into a 10 win team (avg) over the next 10 years with him at QB1.