Geno Isn't the Guy. Sad to Say (Main)

[Spin Doctor]

Show me the tape where he's bad at presnap. I can show you a seasons worth where he makes a living off of it.

He’s a lot better pre-snap than Wilson, that’s for sure. He’s also WAY better here than Lock is, the one people keep suggesting we play.

I don’t think he’s necessarily the best QB in the NFL pre-snap, but he’s the best one we’ve had in this regard since Hasselbeck. He’s way more active in line adjustments and audibles.

 

[BASF]

Several of these posters would be saying the same things if we had Patrick Mahomes.

 

[keasley45]

Show me the tape where he's bad at presnap. I can show you a seasons worth where he makes a living off of it.

He’s a lot better pre-snap than Wilson, that’s for sure. He’s also WAY better here than Lock is, the one people keep suggesting we play.

I don’t think he’s necessarily the best QB in the NFL pre-snap, but he’s the best one we’ve had in this regard since Hasselbeck. He’s way more active in line adjustments and audibles.

yessir

 

[keasley45]

Keep the video playing and hit the print screen button. Can't remember if it straight up saves the image or copies it so you have to paste it into a file or not. Could be worth a google to get a more detailed how-to. I don't know how to do this if you're using an imac, but it is possible on those as well.

yeah. that doesn't work. whether you use the print screen or apps like sniptool, the screen goes black when you initiate it. pretty clever little peace of code.

 

[toffee]

The logic of this thread:

Geno isn't the guy,
Trade Geno, but Pete won't trade him?
Fire Pete, but ownership won't fire Pete?
Change ownership.

There you go.

 

[keasley45]

The game is too fast for Geno down in tight. He is one of the worst red zone QBs in football going back to last year. I thought this season he would improve with another year under his belt. Instead he has gotten worse. The coaches will have to continue to coach around this handicap.

There is no exotic scheme you can come up with to fix this. Pound the rock as much as you can in the red zone, and throw it up to your big targets 1-on-1 and hope Geno guesses correctly is where we are at with him right now. And that is exactly what they are doing for the most part with him--this is not a coaching issue, or an O-Line issue. It's a QB who cannot process fast enough issue.

Run the ball and play defense is the recipe going forward. Geno is just along for the ride. Getting a look at Drew Lock wouldn't be a bad idea if the situation presents itself upcoming.

Is there an actual sequence or series you're referencing to make this claim? Because if you watch the tape of both the Arizona and Cinci game, play by play, where the offense stalled most notably around a failed passing game, its pretty obvious that the problem was not Geno not processing fast enough.

Can he process faster? sure. But so can every QB not named Mahomes or Rodgers.

The failures are not as simple as 'Geno needs to do X better'. The failures were varied.

 

[Chukarhawk]

this video just hit my YouTube algorithms

God I love Charissa. Such a babe.

 

[Lagartixa]

Russell Wilson beats Geno Smith in all 2023 stats but wins.

Well, other than completion percentage, yards per completion, ANY/A, QBR, success%, PAA, EPA, sack% (despite Smith playing behind a badly injured offensive line), CPOE, air yards, DVOA, PFF's QB grade, etc.

Smith has had a relatively bad season so far, and Wilson has been better than expected, and even so, Smith has still clearly been the better quarterback this season.

In a thread about throwback jerseys yesterday, I mentioned that I have a Zorn throwback that I bought in 2018 to celebrate a new job. Another person here posted that "even" Wilson (the poster used a nickname that people here prefer) "was better than Zorny." I responded that I'd never said anything different. I know the difference between my favorite players and the best players. There's obviously overlap (intersection, if you want to get mathematical), but they're different sets of players. You appear to need to learn the difference. The players you like (in this case, Wilson) are not necessarily better at the game than the ones you don't like (in this case, Smith). I dislike Nick Bosa on many levels, but I'm not gonna say he's not good at his job.

Even though Zorn was my first childhood sports hero, I never resented Krieg for taking the starting-QB job because even as a kid, I knew the difference between the players I liked and the best players. Zorn continues to have a special place in my heart to this day, decades later, but it was clear to me then that Krieg was a significantly better quarterback than Zorn in 1983, so I had no problem with him taking the starting job. And I still have great fondness for Krieg too now, because he made the Seahawks a better team.

I get it. You love Wilson and him being gone gives you a sad. That doesn't make him better than Smith. Without the environment and offense Pete Carroll and his coördinators created and maintained for Wilson, Wilson just isn't anything close to the quarterback people thought he was. And that's what made the trade such a fleecing of the Broncos.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Well, other than completion percentage, yards per completion, ANY/A, QBR, success%, PAA, EPA, sack% (despite Smith playing behind a badly injured offensive line), CPOE, air yards, DVOA, PFF's QB grade, etc.

Smith has had a relatively bad season so far, and Wilson has been better than expected, and even so, Smith has still clearly been the better quarterback this season.

In a thread about throwback jerseys yesterday, I mentioned that I have a Zorn throwback that I bought in 2018 to celebrate a new job. Another person here posted that "even" Wilson (the poster used a nickname that people here prefer) "was better than Zorny." I responded that I'd never said anything different. I know the difference between my favorite players and the best players. There's obviously overlap (intersection, if you want to get mathematical), but they're different sets of players. You appear to need to learn the difference. The players you like (in this case, Wilson) are not necessarily better at the game than the ones you don't like (in this case, Smith). I dislike Nick Bosa on many levels, but I'm not gonna say he's not good at his job.

Even though Zorn was my first childhood sports hero, I never resented Krieg for taking the starting-QB job because even as a kid, I knew the difference between the players I liked and the best players. Zorn continues to have a special place in my heart to this day, decades later, but it was clear to me then that Krieg was a significantly better quarterback than Zorn in 1983, so I had no problem with him taking the starting job. And I still have great fondness for Krieg too now, because he made the Seahawks a better team.

I get it. You love Wilson and him being gone gives you a sad. That doesn't make him better than Smith. Without the environment and offense Pete Carroll and his coördinators created and maintained for Wilson, Wilson just isn't anything close to the quarterback people thought he was. And that's what made the trade such a fleecing of the Broncos.

This can be said now because Wilson is pretty much washed up at this point in his career. Wilson in his prime is an entire different story. Saying things like recognizing a better player compared to your favorite player is advice you might want to heed. Geno Smith wont and will never come close to Wilson in his prime.

 

[FrodosFinger]

Agreed but he doesn’t have to be the guy for Seattle to win he just needs to be consistent in the red zone and start paying attention to short yardage coverages. We should be 5-1 tbh we gave the Bengals game away when it was there for the taking. Too many blown opportunities. Geno can win a Super Bowl as an above average quarterback if he fixes a few minor issues and mistakes.

 

[Lagartixa]

This can be said now because Wilson is pretty much washed up at this point in his career. Wilson in his prime is an entire different story. Saying things like recognizing a better player compared to your favorite player is advice you might want to heed. Geno Smith wont and will never come close to Wilson in his prime.

Of course he won't. I never said he would. I don't know of anyone who said he would. But Smith is very clearly the better QB now, and it's this that the Russellettes can't seem to accept.

And let me take this time to point out what an amazing job Pete Carroll and his offensive coördinators did to get so much out of Wilson despite his limitations. I don't think there's another head coach in the league that could have gotten that much out of him. Of course, the negative side of that is that playing Russball instead of a more-standard NFL offense kept the Seahawks from being able to score reliably over the first 50 minutes of game clock for several years, and the protective environment Carroll created for Wilson within the clubhouse caused internal problems and even drove some good players away.

The trade of Wilson to Denver ended up being such a fleecing of the Broncos exactly because no other head coach is ever going to be able to maximize Wilson's strengths and minimize the impact of his weaknesses the way Carroll did for a decade.

 

[scutterhawk]

He’s a lot better pre-snap than Wilson, that’s for sure. He’s also WAY better here than Lock is, the one people keep suggesting we play.

I don’t think he’s necessarily the best QB in the NFL pre-snap, but he’s the best one we’ve had in this regard since Hasselbeck. He’s way more active in line adjustments and audibles.

Yep^ plus, because of the inconsistencies due to the sporadic subbing in of injured Offensive Linemen, Geno's having to constantly readjust from play to play, and if the Run game isn't up to snuff, he's out on an island in this 'Team Sport'.
With both #1 and #2 Receivers DK & Lockett being banged up, Geno now has to factor in playing more with his Rooks.
Hell, the fact that he's even being considered top ten by most who REALLY KNOW their isht & 12th - 14th by .NETsperts who don't take the injuries to his KEY O-Linemen into consideration, tells ME that The Seahawks are getting their money's worth with Geno.

 

[warden]

What choice did we have this off season?

Reach for a QB in the draft and miss out on Witherspoon?

Trade for a QB and lose draft capital?

Go with an unknown and gamble with Lock

Free agency did not have a franchise QB

We went for a player that just had a pro bowl season for us at 25 million base salary

Geno’s contract allowed us to get Reed, Jones and bring back Bobby

Geno was our only good choice

We can reevaluate next off season

All this Geno hate is short sighted and ignorant.

Guess what the choices the team made fixed our defense and add skill to our offense

We are so far surviving a serious injury bug. Lots of good stuff happening in Seahawk land but yet people just want to complain and criticize

 

[knownone]

This can be said now because Wilson is pretty much washed up at this point in his career. Wilson in his prime is an entire different story. Saying things like recognizing a better player compared to your favorite player is advice you might want to heed. Geno Smith wont and will never come close to Wilson in his prime.

On paper, Geno put up an above-average RW3 season last year. He's not better. But there's some mythologizing around Russell that colors people's perceptions. For example, according to PFF, Russ created around 25-30% of his own pressures and sacks. Geno's been under 10%, which is one reason we're on pace for our highest success rate in history.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Geno can win a Super Bowl as an above average quarterback if he fixes a few minor issues and mistakes.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

 

[JPatera76]

Based on the fact that DK,Lockett, Smith etc have been playing in the same system for almost a couple years now. The offense would have already broken wide open if it was going to happen. Geno is what he is

I could say something bad short sighted and premature as that if I too chose to ignore the offensive line has been different guys each game too. Which would definitely have an impact

 

[pittpnthrs]

And let me take this time to point out what an amazing job Pete Carroll and his offensive coördinators did to get so much out of Wilson despite his limitations. I don't think there's another head coach in the league that could have gotten that much out of him. Of course, the negative side of that is that playing Russball instead of a more-standard NFL offense kept the Seahawks from being able to score reliably over the first 50 minutes of game clock for several years, and the protective environment Carroll created for Wilson within the clubhouse caused internal problems and even drove some good players away.

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree here. I think Wilson could have played for anybody and been just as successful. He was just that good. I also believe Carrolls conservative offense and outdated philosophy had more to do with the offense sputtering than Wilson. It was only a couple years ago that Pete finally saw the writing on the wall and realized he had to bring in a young, fresh mind to bring the team up to modern times, thus Waldron from McVays tree.

 

[pittpnthrs]

On paper, Geno put up an above-average RW3 season last year. He's not better. But there's some mythologizing around Russell that colors people's perceptions. For example, according to PFF, Russ created around 25-30% of his own pressures and sacks. Geno's been under 10%, which is one reason we're on pace for our highest success rate in history.

PFF lives in their own world with their stats. Geno was tied for the 3rd most sacked QB last season. How is that good?

PFF credited Geno with a come from behind win against the Giants last year. A game in which Seattle never trailed in. *shrug*. Take PFF for what their worth.

 

[knownone]

PFF lives in their own world with their stats. Geno was tied for the 3rd most sacked QB last season. How is that good?

PFF credited Geno with a come from behind win against the Giants last year. A game in which Seattle never trailed in. *shrug*. Take PFF for what their worth.

PFF provides a more comprehensive evaluation than total stats, which is what you are using. For example, this particular stat tells us about the attribution of blame between QB and OL. Here, Geno contributed to 9% of his sacks last season, so we can say 4 out of Geno's 49 sacks were directly a result of his actions. Is it subjective? To some extent because it relies on a scout's interpretation of individual plays. However, it tells us more about those 49 sacks than your analysis, which looks at the total and asks, "How is that good?"

Do you have a link to that Giant's stat? I can't find it on the website.

 

[Lagartixa]

PFF lives in their own world with their stats. Geno was tied for the 3rd most sacked QB last season. How is that good?

I think PFF's grades are little more than popularity contests with a restricted voting public, but at least it's the "eye test" of multiple people who are paid to do that for a living and have access to the All-22, so I trust PFF grades marginally more than the "eye test" of people sharing their wisdom for free on a fan forum. I wouldn't pay to subscribe to PFF, because their grades are both black boxes and very subjective, but I find them interesting as supplemental information (about on the same level as subjective scouting reports) when others post them here.

As for the sacks last season, while playing with rookie tackles, counting stats are a stupid way to look at it, because different players have different numbers of dropbacks. Rates tell us a lot more. Smith was sacked on 7.4% of his dropbacks, tied for 12th-worst in the league. Wilson was sacked on 10.2% of his, and the only other player above 10% was Josh Fields, who is unlikely to ever be anything other than a giant draft bust. The distance between RW3-and-out and Smith was the same as the distance between Smith and the midpoint between the starting QBs with the fourth-lowest and fifth-lowest sack percentages. So yeah, Smith's sack percentage was bad, but Smith was closer to the best five in sack percentage than Wilson was to Smith. It's really difficult to express just how awful RW3-and-out was last season.

What about this season, you might ask. Well, despite playing behind a patchwork offensive line, Smith has been better than the median in sack percentage at 6.5% (tied with Jalen Hurts). Wilson, meanwhile, is having a career resurgence by getting sacked on "just" 8.5% of his dropbacks (right at his career average), the seventh-highest (seventh-worst) percentage in the league. And once again, the distance between RW3-and-out's sack percentage and Smith's is the same as the distance between Smith's and the top five in avoiding sacks.

PFF credited Geno with a come from behind win against the Giants last year. A game in which Seattle never trailed in. *shrug*. Take PFF for what their worth.

PFF wasn't who gave Smith a game-winning drive (not a "come-from-behind win") against the Giants last year. In that game, the Giants tied the game at 13 in the fourth quarter. Smith and the Seahawks then had a drive in the fourth quarter on which they took a lead (with a touchdown), and the team then didn't relinquish the lead and won the game. That fits the definition of the game-winning drive stat invented by Scott Kacsmar, then writing for Pro-Football Reference (part of Sports Reference) as one of two different stats he invented to try to standardize a few concepts about how QBs and offenses perform late in games, the other being fourth-quarter comebacks. Not only do you appear to have confused PFF on the one hand, and on the other Pro-Football-Reference and all the other sites that now use game-winning drives (GWD) and fourth-quarter comebacks (4QC), you appear to have confused GWD and 4QC.

There are plenty of valid criticisms of PFF, but you criticize PFF based on your own total misunderstanding of two stats PFF didn't even invent, and may not even use. So rather than taking PFF for what "their" (sic) worth, as you suggest, maybe we should take you for what you're worth: a Carroll hater desperately searching for ways to defend Wilson and criticize the Seahawks as long as Carroll is around.

Try again, Eeyore.