Aaron Rodgers has Covid.

[PackerNation]

I don't think getting vaccinated is a bad thing at all. I happen to be vaccinated. I got vaccinated by my own choice. It's political because one side is jamming it down everyone's throat.

IMO, it should be a personal choice. It seems to me that the vaccination is weaponized depending on who is in office.

Regardless, the fact remain that both the vaccinated and the unvaccinated can carry and pass along the virus. I still cannot believe that we as Americans are not turning on China for releasing this on the world.

If you feel that strongly about mandating vaccines, then write your Congressman/Senator and ask them to propose an amendment to the Constitution because there's nothing in there that prohibits the government from instituting such mandates or adapting other safety measures like mask wearing.

What I don't understand is why all of a sudden mandatory vaccinations are an issue. We've had them for over a century and except for a tiny minority of Christian scientists it was never a major problem until these past couple of years. There are more safety precautions and more rigorous testing associated with the 3 approved vaccines than there ever has been before. What's different about this one?

Agreed about China. They behaved badly, were not open about it and to this day have not been cooperative. We'll never know how it originated. But there's other villains besides the Chinese. Our own government was slow to react, could have started testing for it weeks ahead of when we did but we had to have our own test vs. the WHO's.

Because of who the POTUS is. If Trump had won, vaccines would not be mandated and the left would be pointing out how bad they are and to not take them. That was pretty much 2020 in a nutshell. Fast forward to 2021 and suddenly vaccines are all the rage despite the fact that getting vaccinated basically means you can still carry and pass along the virus to others. Not to mention the fact that now a mandatory booster shot is on the table because the vaccines they give have not been perfected to the point where they don't stop the spread.

Polio shots prevent Polio. COVID-19 shots do not prevent COVID-19. Why vaccinate children? Why not just vaccinate the elderly and all of obese people who are at great risk from dying. Why not wait until we get a better shot or more know about the virus before forcing the population to do something many don't want to do?

I just want personal choice. That's all. I chose to be vaccinated and I am happy I did. I don't want to see people who have valid concerns or medical reasons to be forced to get the shot and if they don't, be ostracized for it.

China: I think we know where it came from and I think the US is partly at fault for funding the research (Gain of Function) and Dr. Fauci needs to downplay it or outright cover it up. I think our leaders (on both sides of the aisle) have done the American people a great disservice over the years in a lot of different arenas, this being one of them.

Just my opinion.

 

[PackerNation]

Vaxxed - You can still carry the virus and pass it on to others.
UnVaxxed - You can still carry the virus and pass it on to others.

Well that's rather disingenuous.

True: Recent research shows that Vaccinated and Unvaccinated people can carry similar viral loads.

Also True: The study is among THE INFECTED, both symptomatic and asymptomatic. IE, the vaccine prevents a large % of people getting infected to begin with, thereby decreasing the risk of spread.

IE, if you have 100 Vaccinated vs 100 Unvaccinated who are all subjected to the virus and 90% of Unvaccinated get it vs 10% of Vaccinated getting it...

Vaccinated: 10 People with the passable virus.
Unvaccinated: 90 people with the passable virus.

They would all have the same viral load, but far fewer of them came from the vaccinated group. IE, a pandemic of the unvaccinated.

I really don't understand why this is political or why people try so hard to make the vaccine a bad thing. This should be a no brainer.

Our children have had to get vaccinated against all sorts of things for decades.

I don't think getting vaccinated is a bad thing at all. I happen to be vaccinated. I got vaccinated by my own choice. It's political because one side is jamming it down everyone's throat.

IMO, it should be a personal choice. It seems to me that the vaccination is weaponized depending on who is in office.

Regardless, the fact remain that both the vaccinated and the unvaccinated can carry and pass along the virus. I still cannot believe that we as Americans are not turning on China for releasing this on the world.

That's just BS.

At no point or at any time did anyone say that the vaccinated couldn't get or pass along the virus. Its a matter of preventing as many people as possible from getting the virus to begin with which the vaccine prevents. If less people are infected then less people can pass on the virus.

As for one "side" jamming it down everyone's throat's...that's some revisionist history there. Vaccines have been with us for a century. They are mandated for school children. This wasn't an issue. The other "side" of this argument simply chooses to ignore science or cherry pick facts (like for example saying both the vaccinated or unvaccinated can get sick and pass it as if they are on equal footing when you KNOW that's not the case).

The left is NOT weaponizing vaccines. That's just ludicrous. They are trying to BEAT the damn thing and the only way to do that is a group effort. The Right has used this as some sort of "I'm a victim" rallying cry to paint common sense as draconian measures.

Personal freedoms extend right to the point where they infringe on others. Do you have the right to murder? Do you have the right to run a red light? The government restricts personal freedoms all the time. People only care NOW because its a big fat red herring for them to salivate over.

What? Even people who get vaccinated can still get COVID-19 and pass it along to others, not to mention, succumb to it. Colin Powell was fully vaccinated and he died of complications due to COVID. The real issue is that it affects people differently. Most of the people dying from it are grossly overweight. Why not mandate a "tread mill" policy for fat people?

The left always weaponizes one thing or another. Today, it's vaccines are great and mandatory. Under Trump, it was NOT getting vaccinated because it can kill you and our POTUS is an a$$. It's S.O.P for the left.

I want freedom of choice and I would love to see things get back to even keel. But I am vaccinated and I encourage anyone and everyone to take the shot.

 

[RiverDog]

What? Even people who get vaccinated can still get COVID-19 and pass it along to others, not to mention, succumb to it. Colin Powell was fully vaccinated and he died of complications due to COVID. The real issue is that it affects people differently. Most of the people dying from it are grossly overweight. Why not mandate a "tread mill" policy for fat people?

The left always weaponizes one thing or another. Today, it's vaccines are great and mandatory. Under Trump, it was NOT getting vaccinated because it can kill you and our POTUS is an a$$. It's S.O.P for the left.

I want freedom of choice and I would love to see things get back to even keel. But I am vaccinated and I encourage anyone and everyone to take the shot.

Bad example. Colin Powell was undergoing cancer treatments and was immunocompromised. He was also 84 years old, and older people do not have as robust of an immune system as younger people do. Former Seahawk Dan Doornink, who also was vaccinated but immunocompromised and nearly died from Covid, is another case. The vaccines are also not as effective in people that have received organ transplants. They told us many months before Powell died that there were certain segments of the population in which the vaccines wouldn't be as effective in, all the more reason for mandating it as only through herd immunity can we protect those of us that the vaccine doesn't work or who are allergic to the vaccines from becoming infected.

Hard to believe that a person as intelligent as you hold yourself to be would be so obtuse and come up with such a goofy analogy as comparing treadmills for fat people to a poke in the arm.

You're grasping for straws, my friend.

 

[PackerNation]

What? Even people who get vaccinated can still get COVID-19 and pass it along to others, not to mention, succumb to it. Colin Powell was fully vaccinated and he died of complications due to COVID. The real issue is that it affects people differently. Most of the people dying from it are grossly overweight. Why not mandate a "tread mill" policy for fat people?

The left always weaponizes one thing or another. Today, it's vaccines are great and mandatory. Under Trump, it was NOT getting vaccinated because it can kill you and our POTUS is an a$$. It's S.O.P for the left.

I want freedom of choice and I would love to see things get back to even keel. But I am vaccinated and I encourage anyone and everyone to take the shot.

Bad example. Colin Powell was undergoing cancer treatments and was immunocompromised. He was also 84 years old, and older people do not have as robust of an immune system as younger people do. Former Seahawk Dan Doornink, who also was vaccinated but immunocompromised and nearly died from Covid, is another case. The vaccines are also not as effective in people that have received organ transplants. They told us many months before Powell died that there were certain segments of the population in which the vaccines wouldn't be as effective in, all the more reason for mandating it as only through herd immunity can we protect those of us that the vaccine doesn't work or who are allergic to the vaccines from becoming infected.

Hard to believe that a person as intelligent as you hold yourself to be would come up with such a goofy analogy as comparing treadmills for fat people to a poke in the arm.

You're grasping for straws, my friend.

I am hardly alone when it comes to freedom of choice. It's a pretty contentious subject and those on both sides have some merit to their stance. I just happen to come down on the side of choice because the vaccines do not prevent the spread. People are getting infected whether they have it or not. If they had a vaccine that was 100% bullet proof of preventing the spread and not ever getting COVID than I would be in favor of mandatory vaccines.

I think it's just too soon at this point. Also, people being shamed into getting the shot or prevented from flying/travelling, etc. is just insane to me.

 

[Marvin49]

Well that's rather disingenuous.

True: Recent research shows that Vaccinated and Unvaccinated people can carry similar viral loads.

Also True: The study is among THE INFECTED, both symptomatic and asymptomatic. IE, the vaccine prevents a large % of people getting infected to begin with, thereby decreasing the risk of spread.

IE, if you have 100 Vaccinated vs 100 Unvaccinated who are all subjected to the virus and 90% of Unvaccinated get it vs 10% of Vaccinated getting it...

Vaccinated: 10 People with the passable virus.
Unvaccinated: 90 people with the passable virus.

They would all have the same viral load, but far fewer of them came from the vaccinated group. IE, a pandemic of the unvaccinated.

I really don't understand why this is political or why people try so hard to make the vaccine a bad thing. This should be a no brainer.

Our children have had to get vaccinated against all sorts of things for decades.

I don't think getting vaccinated is a bad thing at all. I happen to be vaccinated. I got vaccinated by my own choice. It's political because one side is jamming it down everyone's throat.

IMO, it should be a personal choice. It seems to me that the vaccination is weaponized depending on who is in office.

Regardless, the fact remain that both the vaccinated and the unvaccinated can carry and pass along the virus. I still cannot believe that we as Americans are not turning on China for releasing this on the world.

That's just BS.

At no point or at any time did anyone say that the vaccinated couldn't get or pass along the virus. Its a matter of preventing as many people as possible from getting the virus to begin with which the vaccine prevents. If less people are infected then less people can pass on the virus.

As for one "side" jamming it down everyone's throat's...that's some revisionist history there. Vaccines have been with us for a century. They are mandated for school children. This wasn't an issue. The other "side" of this argument simply chooses to ignore science or cherry pick facts (like for example saying both the vaccinated or unvaccinated can get sick and pass it as if they are on equal footing when you KNOW that's not the case).

The left is NOT weaponizing vaccines. That's just ludicrous. They are trying to BEAT the damn thing and the only way to do that is a group effort. The Right has used this as some sort of "I'm a victim" rallying cry to paint common sense as draconian measures.

Personal freedoms extend right to the point where they infringe on others. Do you have the right to murder? Do you have the right to run a red light? The government restricts personal freedoms all the time. People only care NOW because its a big fat red herring for them to salivate over.

What? Even people who get vaccinated can still get COVID-19 and pass it along to others, not to mention, succumb to it. Colin Powell was fully vaccinated and he died of complications due to COVID. The real issue is that it affects people differently. Most of the people dying from it are grossly overweight. Why not mandate a "tread mill" policy for fat people?

The left always weaponizes one thing or another. Today, it's vaccines are great and mandatory. Under Trump, it was NOT getting vaccinated because it can kill you and our POTUS is an a$$. It's S.O.P for the left.

I want freedom of choice and I would love to see things get back to even keel. But I am vaccinated and I encourage anyone and everyone to take the shot.

Um...what?

I think you need to read what I said again.

 

[Marvin49]

What? Even people who get vaccinated can still get COVID-19 and pass it along to others, not to mention, succumb to it. Colin Powell was fully vaccinated and he died of complications due to COVID. The real issue is that it affects people differently. Most of the people dying from it are grossly overweight. Why not mandate a "tread mill" policy for fat people?

The left always weaponizes one thing or another. Today, it's vaccines are great and mandatory. Under Trump, it was NOT getting vaccinated because it can kill you and our POTUS is an a$$. It's S.O.P for the left.

I want freedom of choice and I would love to see things get back to even keel. But I am vaccinated and I encourage anyone and everyone to take the shot.

Bad example. Colin Powell was undergoing cancer treatments and was immunocompromised. He was also 84 years old, and older people do not have as robust of an immune system as younger people do. Former Seahawk Dan Doornink, who also was vaccinated but immunocompromised and nearly died from Covid, is another case. The vaccines are also not as effective in people that have received organ transplants. They told us many months before Powell died that there were certain segments of the population in which the vaccines wouldn't be as effective in, all the more reason for mandating it as only through herd immunity can we protect those of us that the vaccine doesn't work or who are allergic to the vaccines from becoming infected.

Hard to believe that a person as intelligent as you hold yourself to be would come up with such a goofy analogy as comparing treadmills for fat people to a poke in the arm.

You're grasping for straws, my friend.

I am hardly alone when it comes to freedom of choice. It's a pretty contentious subject and those on both sides have some merit to their stance. I just happen to come down on the side of choice because the vaccines do not prevent the spread. People are getting infected whether they have it or not. If they had a vaccine that was 100% bullet proof of preventing the spread and not ever getting COVID than I would be in favor of mandatory vaccines.

I think it's just too soon at this point. Also, people being shamed into getting the shot or prevented from flying/travelling, etc. is just insane to me.

OMG.

Seriously?

Vaccines DO prevent the spread. Nothing is 100%. 90%-95% is freakin outstanding.

if 100 people are subjected to it but 10 people get it, you have 10 sick people. Of those 10 they subject the virus to lets say 100 more people each. That's 100 (10x10) sick people.

If 90 of the 100 people get it and each subjects it to 100 people each who are NOT vaccinated. That's 8100 (90x90) sick people.

You don't want me to take that number further. It only gets worse.

Vaccines don't need to be 100% effective to be HUGELY impactful.

I'm glad to hear you are vaccinated. As for the shaming...I don't entirely disagree with that because even as a liberal I have an issue with so called "cancel culture", but preventing people from working, travelling has nothing to do with shame. Its about protecting everyone else from the bad choices of a few.

 

[RiverDog]

I am hardly alone when it comes to freedom of choice. It's a pretty contentious subject and those on both sides have some merit to their stance. I just happen to come down on the side of choice because the vaccines do not prevent the spread. People are getting infected whether they have it or not. If they had a vaccine that was 100% bullet proof of preventing the spread and not ever getting COVID than I would be in favor of mandatory vaccines.

I think it's just too soon at this point. Also, people being shamed into getting the shot or prevented from flying/travelling, etc. is just insane to me.

Are you even reading what others have noted? Have you done your homework on the vaccines? You're just winging it, saying the first thing that comes to your mind without giving it some thought. You're not being a "critical thinker", to coin a phrase used by the subject of the thread title.

The vaccines do not completely prevent the spread of the virus unless we get 80-90% of the population vaccinated. Had we achieved that threshold by June like we were on track to be, we would not have had near the surge in cases, hospitalizations, and deaths that we've experienced. But even with vaccination rates that high, we still wouldn't be completely rid of the disease. It took decades of mass vaccinations for us to defeat small pox and polio. I hesitate to lecture anyone, but honestly, you need to read up on vaccinations. You have a lot of misconceptions about them.

If they had a vaccine that was 100% bullet proof of preventing the spread and not ever getting COVID than I would be in favor of mandatory vaccines.

Another nonsensical position. Seat belts don't prevent 100% of auto fatalities, so let's repeal the laws. Let's get rid of the child seat and motorcycle helmet mandates. And why do we have to wear seat belts on commercial airliners? It would make more sense for you to be upset with those types of mandates as failure to comply doesn't put others at risk.

We have mandates like not smoking in public buildings, not due to the risk to the individual so as to reduce, but not eliminate, the risk of someone else acquiring lung cancer via second hand smoke. There is absolutely no difference between not being allowed to smoke in a restaurant and requiring proof of vaccination to enter.

 

[PackerNation]

I am hardly alone when it comes to freedom of choice. It's a pretty contentious subject and those on both sides have some merit to their stance. I just happen to come down on the side of choice because the vaccines do not prevent the spread. People are getting infected whether they have it or not. If they had a vaccine that was 100% bullet proof of preventing the spread and not ever getting COVID than I would be in favor of mandatory vaccines.

I think it's just too soon at this point. Also, people being shamed into getting the shot or prevented from flying/travelling, etc. is just insane to me.

Are you even reading what others have noted? Have you done your homework on the vaccines?

The vaccines do not completely prevent the spread of the virus unless we get 80-90% of the population vaccinated. Had we achieved that threshold by June like we were on track to be, we would not have had near the surge in cases, hospitalizations, and deaths that we've experienced. But even with vaccination rates that high, we still wouldn't be completely rid of the disease. It took decades of mass vaccinations for us to defeat small pox and polio. I hesitate to lecture anyone, but honestly, you need to read up on vaccinations.

If they had a vaccine that was 100% bullet proof of preventing the spread and not ever getting COVID than I would be in favor of mandatory vaccines.

Another nonsensical position. Seat belts don't prevent 100% of auto fatalities, so let's repeal the laws. Let's get rid of the child seat and motorcycle helmet mandates. And why do we have to wear seat belts on commercial airliners? It would make more sense for you to be upset with those types of mandates as failure to comply doesn't put others at risk.

We have mandates like not smoking in public buildings, not due to the risk to the individual but to reduce the risk of lung cancer via second hand smoke to others they come in close proximity to. There is absolutely no difference between not being allowed to smoke in a restaurant and requiring proof of vaccination to enter.

I disagree with the smoking laws too. It should be up to building owners and up to businesses, not the State or Federal Government. California wants to restrict smoking, even in your own home. I don't even smoke and I am against it. Freedom of choice is a fine line.

Yes, my good friend is one of the top Cardiologists in the city of Austin and he agrees. In fact, it was his recommendation to get vaccinated but thinks it's also too soon of the government to mandate it. He said it needs a bit more time as better and more efficient vaccines will be coming out that will no longer need boosters. How many jabs will people endure before it's done right? Government should encourage and support and doctors and hospitals should lead the way.

You believe in the mandate and to force people to put something in their body that they might not want to do. While your intentions might be honorable, I disagree with the method. Let people choose instead of doing it by force.

As I stated over and over, I am vaccinated. I just don't think at this point a mandate is in order.

 

[PackerNation]

What? Even people who get vaccinated can still get COVID-19 and pass it along to others, not to mention, succumb to it. Colin Powell was fully vaccinated and he died of complications due to COVID. The real issue is that it affects people differently. Most of the people dying from it are grossly overweight. Why not mandate a "tread mill" policy for fat people?

The left always weaponizes one thing or another. Today, it's vaccines are great and mandatory. Under Trump, it was NOT getting vaccinated because it can kill you and our POTUS is an a$$. It's S.O.P for the left.

I want freedom of choice and I would love to see things get back to even keel. But I am vaccinated and I encourage anyone and everyone to take the shot.

Bad example. Colin Powell was undergoing cancer treatments and was immunocompromised. He was also 84 years old, and older people do not have as robust of an immune system as younger people do. Former Seahawk Dan Doornink, who also was vaccinated but immunocompromised and nearly died from Covid, is another case. The vaccines are also not as effective in people that have received organ transplants. They told us many months before Powell died that there were certain segments of the population in which the vaccines wouldn't be as effective in, all the more reason for mandating it as only through herd immunity can we protect those of us that the vaccine doesn't work or who are allergic to the vaccines from becoming infected.

Hard to believe that a person as intelligent as you hold yourself to be would come up with such a goofy analogy as comparing treadmills for fat people to a poke in the arm.

You're grasping for straws, my friend.

I am hardly alone when it comes to freedom of choice. It's a pretty contentious subject and those on both sides have some merit to their stance. I just happen to come down on the side of choice because the vaccines do not prevent the spread. People are getting infected whether they have it or not. If they had a vaccine that was 100% bullet proof of preventing the spread and not ever getting COVID than I would be in favor of mandatory vaccines.

I think it's just too soon at this point. Also, people being shamed into getting the shot or prevented from flying/travelling, etc. is just insane to me.

OMG.

Seriously?

Vaccines DO prevent the spread. Nothing is 100%. 90%-95% is freakin outstanding.

if 100 people are subjected to it but 10 people get it, you have 10 sick people. Of those 10 they subject the virus to lets say 100 more people each. That's 100 (10x10) sick people.

If 90 of the 100 people get it and each subjects it to 100 people each who are NOT vaccinated. That's 8100 (90x90) sick people.

You don't want me to take that number further. It only gets worse.

Vaccines don't need to be 100% effective to be HUGELY impactful.

I'm glad to hear you are vaccinated. As for the shaming...I don't entirely disagree with that because even as a liberal I have an issue with so called "cancel culture", but preventing people from working, travelling has nothing to do with shame. Its about protecting everyone else from the bad choices of a few.

I have not heard that high of prevention and spread rate at all. I just know a lot of people and have heard a lot from friends who are in the medical field that they are coming across a lot of people who are vaccinated and still have COVID and they spread to others that are vaccinated and unvaccinated.

Vaccines don't need to be 100% effective to be HUGELY impactful and I agree 100%. I thought flu shots are about 70% effective but they also reduce the effects if you do get the flu. I get the shot every year and about every 3-4 years, I get the flu. I am convinced it's from a bad dose or something. I feel awful within hours of getting the shot then the flu almost the next day.

I want the government out of our lives and I want hospitals and doctors to lead the way. Our government sucks at running anything and that is from the position of a military veteran.

 

[RiverDog]

I disagree with the smoking laws too. It should be up to building owners and up to businesses, not the State or Federal Government. California wants to restrict smoking, even in your own home. I don't even smoke and I am against it. Freedom of choice is a fine line.

I would agree with you that a law restricting smoking in a private residence is absurd and would not be Constitutional. However, a private business that caters to the public is different. Businesses have to comply with all sorts of laws to protect their customers, smoking being just one of them. A restaurant can't allow a customer to bring their dog in with them, either, or bring a firearm in with them.

Yes, my good friend is one of the top Cardiologists in the city of Austin and he agrees. In fact, it was his recommendation to get vaccinated but thinks it's also too soon of the government to mandate it. He said it needs a bit more time as better and more efficient vaccines will be coming out that will no longer need boosters. How many jabs will people endure before it's done right? Government should encourage and support and doctors and hospitals should lead the way.

The problem with that line of thinking is that you'd be constantly moving the goal posts. They were 95% effective in January so let's slap on the mandates. Oh, wait, it's July and now they're not as effective against the Delta variant, so let's suspend the mandate.

IYou believe in the mandate and to force people to put something in their body that they might not want to do. While your intentions might be honorable, I disagree with the method. Let people choose instead of doing it by force.

As I stated over and over, I am vaccinated. I just don't think at this point a mandate is in order.

I would prefer not to issue mandates, either, and if the disease wasn't as contagious as it is or didn't overload our health care system like it has, I wouldn't be supporting them. But the only way we're going to achieve some degree of herd immunity where we can protect others like Colin Powell that are most vulnerable is to get our vaccination rates into the 80-95% threshold, and even then, it's likely to require more boosters and other preventative measures.

We can quibble about the timing of the mandates, but if you are good with them at some point, then it makes sense to trust the timing of that decision to the immunologists and infectious disease experts that have spent a lifetime studying them. The vast majority of those folks feel that we're at that point.

 

[PackerNation]

I would agree with you that a law restricting smoking in a private residence is absurd and would not be Constitutional. However, a private business that caters to the public is different. Businesses have to comply with all sorts of laws to protect their customers, smoking being just one of them. A restaurant can't allow a customer to bring their dog in with them, either, or bring a firearm in with them.

Well, they have "cigar bars" where people can go in and drink, smoke all they want and I would think businesses could do the same thing, especially restaurants. But, honestly, I prefer clean smoke free environments even though I partake in a cigar every now and then. My back porch is my favorite place. But from a "freedom" standpoint, I was against all of the smoking bans.

I have been in restaurants in Austin with my dogs, usually outdoors only but they are all over down here. Service dogs are tolerated by a lot of places.

The problem with that line of thinking is that you'd be constantly moving the goal posts. They were 95% effective in January so let's slap on the mandates. Oh, wait, it's July and now they're not as effective against the Delta variant, so let's suspend the mandate.

Well, I think the mandate was done too early and too soon. They had to know the shots effectiveness would wear down and a booster was needed. Now, what? What if the booster doesn't really work or you need another 1 year from now? I get your point but that is why I want doctors and hospitals to lead the way, not government. People, in general, are more receptive to doing things when it isn't the government leading the way. At least in my experience.

I would prefer not to issue mandates, either, and if the disease wasn't as contagious as it is or didn't overload our health care system like it has, I wouldn't be supporting them. But the only way we're going to achieve some degree of herd immunity where we can protect others like Colin Powell that are most vulnerable is to get our vaccination rates into the 80-95% threshold, and even then, it's likely to require more boosters and other preventative measures.

We can quibble about the timing of the mandates, but if you are good with them at some point, then it makes sense to trust the timing of that decision to the immunologists and infectious disease experts that have spent a lifetime studying them. The vast majority of those folks feel that we're at that point.

I want doctors and hospitals to lead the way, not government. In any case, I hope it all works out for everyone because I think this virus is too far spread to not be a new medical issue for the coming generations. Makes me wonder what is just around the corner. God help us all if Ebola figures out a way to become resilient enough to flourish in 1st world countries.

 

[RiverDog]

Well, they have "cigar bars" where people can go in and drink, smoke all they want and I would think businesses could do the same thing, especially restaurants. But, honestly, I prefer clean smoke free environments even though I partake in a cigar every now and then. My back porch is my favorite place. But from a "freedom" standpoint, I was against all of the smoking bans.

I have been in restaurants in Austin with my dogs, usually outdoors only but they are all over down here. Service dogs are tolerated by a lot of places.

Of course, there are exceptions. There's exceptions to the vaccine mandates, too.

The problem with that line of thinking is that you'd be constantly moving the goal posts. They were 95% effective in January so let's slap on the mandates. Oh, wait, it's July and now they're not as effective against the Delta variant, so let's suspend the mandate.

Well, I think the mandate was done too early and too soon. They had to know the shots effectiveness would wear down and a booster was needed. Now, what? What if the booster doesn't really work or you need another 1 year from now? I get your point but that is why I want doctors and hospitals to lead the way, not government. People, in general, are more receptive to doing things when it isn't the government leading the way. At least in my experience.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Mine is that time was, and is, a luxury we did not have. The virus isn't going to wait around. It's enough that the trials have proven these vaccines to be safe and effective and for the FDA, acting on the advice of an independent panel, to have approved them for their use. Once those steps have occurred, I'm good with the mandates.

The government must lead the way. Without the government issuing their mandates, there isn't the legal justification for private industry to issue theirs. I'm no fan of Joe Biden's, but they've worked closely with private industry on these mandates and for the most part, have secured a consensus opinion.

I want doctors and hospitals to lead the way, not government. In any case, I hope it all works out for everyone because I think this virus is too far spread to not be a new medical issue for the coming generations. Makes me wonder what is just around the corner. God help us all if Ebola figures out a way to become resilient enough to flourish in 1st world countries.

Just who do you think works at the CDC and FDA? Doctors. Have you ever looked at the panel that the CDC relies on for their recommendations? Here's three of the 15 voting members of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP):

LEE, Grace M., MD, MPH
Associate Chief Medical Officer for Practice Innovation
Lucile Packard Children’s Hospital
Professor of Pediatrics, Stanford University School of Medicine

AULT, Kevin A., MD, FACOG, FIDSA
Professor and Division Director
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology
University of Kansas Medical Center
Kansas City, KS

BROOKS, Oliver, MD, FAAP
Chief Medical Officer
Watts HealthCare Corporation
Los Angeles, CA
Past President, National Medical Association

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/members/index.html

It's a who's who of the medical community. Those are the types of people the government is relying on for their advice. Note: You won't see Joe Rogan's name in there.

 

[cymatica]

I even remember telling people to get ready for vaccine mandates while being laughed at. Not hard to predict if you pay any attention to reality.

It's not too hard to predict if you paid attention to anything. Vaccine mandates have been with us for over a century, and the Supreme Court long ago has ruled that they are Constitutional. Hell, the military mandated an anthrax vaccine that hadn't even been approved by the FDA.

But it's only been in the last year that people started arguing that it was within their rights to refuse one.

No they have not. Please tell me when we had mandates on citizens going to work. Please tell me when a vaccine passport was required to enter a business. If you are comparing anthrax to covid, then you really are clueless.

In 1877 the supreme court ruled in favor of segregation. The supreme court is 1 branch of government and often gets it wrong regarding the constitution, often they interpret it how it benefits them politically at the time

Here ya go!

In Jacobson v. Massachusetts (1905), the Supreme Court upheld a state’s mandatory compulsory smallpox vaccination law over the challenge of a pastor who alleged that it violated his religious liberty rights.

Pastor Henning Jacobson contended that he had a right under the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to avoid the mandatory vaccination law.

The U.S. Supreme Court, in an opinion by Justice John Marshall Harlan I, ruled that the state of Massachusetts acted constitutionally within its police powers to pass a law to protect the health and safety of the public.

“According to settled principles, the police power of a State must be held to embrace, at least, such reasonable regulations established directly by legislative enactment as will protect the public health and the public safety,” Harlan wrote.

Jacobson argued that the smallpox vaccination law not only infringed on his religious liberty but also was arbitrary and capricious. The Court disagreed, writing that Jacobson’s individual right must give way to the “common good.”

Harlan explained: “But the liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States to every person within its jurisdiction does not import an absolute right in each person to be, at all times and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint. There are manifold restraints to which every person is necessarily subject for the common good.”

The Court emphasized that government officials were acting out of necessity as smallpox was “prevalent and increasing at Cambridge.” This emergency situation justified the government official’s action in making the smallpox vaccination mandatory.

https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/articl ... sachusetts

Surely you support the supreme courts rulings in favor of segregation. I mean, they are the ultimate arbiter of interpreting the constitutionality of laws or edicts in your opinion, so you surely support their past racist decisions. Or do their rulings only count if you agree with them?

On another note, no vaccine mandate law was passed. It is a federal mandate, not a law that actually has gone through the proper channels. The same applies to any Insley mandate. I guess you are ok with abandoning the rule of law in favor of mandates and edicts. Sure doesn't sound like democracy.

I am also curious, since when did corporate fascism become acceptable in this country? Is it now just ok since orange man is gone, or is it the 24/7 fear campaign broadcaster by Pfizer sponsored media outlets? Does anyone even care that these pharmaceutical giants have very close ties to these corporate media outlets and FDA board members? Or does having these concerns just make someone a conspiracy theorist and anti-vaxxer by default?

 

[RiverDog]

Surely you support the supreme courts rulings in favor of segregation. I mean, they are the ultimate arbiter of interpreting the constitutionality of laws or edicts in your opinion, so you surely support their past racist decisions. Or do their rulings only count if you agree with them?

The Supreme Court has often times changed its position on a number of issues, but they are the final arbitrator until they say otherwise. Whether we agree with them or not is irrelevant. We have to abide by their decisions if we are to be a society governed by the rule of law.

On another note, no vaccine mandate law was passed. It is a federal mandate, not a law that actually has gone through the proper channels. The same applies to any Insley mandate. I guess you are ok with abandoning the rule of law in favor of mandates and edicts. Sure doesn't sound like democracy.

Inslee (note proper spelling) was elected by the people of this state to lead. He has taken actions granted to him by the state's constitution. If you don't like his decisions, then vote him out of office. BTW, I don't like the SOB either, except as it applies to the pandemic. And BTW, we are not a democracy. We're a representative republic. There's a difference.

I am also curious, since when did corporate fascism become acceptable in this country? Is it now just ok since orange man is gone, or is it the 24/7 fear campaign broadcaster by Pfizer sponsored media outlets? Does anyone even care that these pharmaceutical giants have very close ties to these corporate media outlets and FDA board members? Or does having these concerns just make someone a conspiracy theorist and anti-vaxxer by default?

I don't understand where you're going with this. There's plenty of information on these vaccines from literally hundreds of very credible sources that hasn't gone through the government's or the media's filters and that are not associated with the manufacturers.

Worldwide, there's been close to a billion of these vaccines administered in less than a year. If there were a major problem with them, we would have heard about it long ago.

 

[cymatica]

Yes we are a representative republic, the supreme court is not our representative. No the supreme court is not the ultimate authority of constitutionality. They are 1 branch of government and many their decisions have been ignored throughout our history by the other branches. Separation of powers exist for a reason.

No Insley does not have the authority to force mask mandates or proof of vaccination on private businesses or individuals.

No not all scientists, PHDs, or MDs think these vaccines are safe or effective. There are a large number who are raising red flags and they are causing heart and blood problems in a lot of people. Interestingly, they are frequently censored or not given a platform by media outlets who receive funding from companies like Pfizer. Why not have open discussion and debate instead of censorship if these shots are safe and effective? If you want to eliminate vaccine hesitancy, you don't do it by silencing people who raise legitimate concerns while trying to force people to take them. There's nothing constitutional about that, that's more like fascism and tyranny than anything else.

There also was no double blind placebo study beyond 2 weeks, which is interesting considering you are not considered fully vaccinated until 14 days after the second dose.

There's nothing about this whole situation that makes me confident that I can trust these companies or politicians with my health.

 

[RiverDog]

Yes we are a representative republic, the supreme court is not our representative. No the supreme court is not the ultimate authority of constitutionality. They are 1 branch of government and many their decisions have been ignored throughout our history by the other branches. Separation of powers exist for a reason.

Sorry, but the Supreme Court IS the ultimate judge of what laws/mandates are Constitutional and which are not. It's their sole task. They have no other responsibility other than making sure that the Constitution is upheld.

No Insley does not have the authority to force mask mandates or proof of vaccination on private businesses or individuals.

From the House Republicans website:

State law gives the governor authority to take extraordinary action during an emergency. The law authorizes the governor alone to call a “state of emergency.” It is not specific about when the state of emergency ends, although it does require the governor to lift the state of emergency when the situation stabilizes.

The governor has two ways to suspend existing law in an emergency. First, the governor can “prohibit” otherwise legal conduct to deal with an emergency. For example, the governor could impose curfews and prohibit people from gathering at certain areas, if necessary, to deal with an emergency.

Second, the governor also may waive existing laws and regulations when necessary to deal with an emergency. For example, in 2020, the governor closed state offices during the lockdown and required most state employees to work from home. There is an existing law requiring people to pass an in-person eyesight exam to receive a new driver’s license. Because the licensing offices were closed, the law would have prevented people from being able to receive a new driver’s licenses during the lockdown. So, that part of the law was waived to allow new licenses to be issued without the in-person exam.

https://houserepublicans.wa.gov/coronavirus/governor/

Not all scientists, PHDs, or MDs think these vaccines are safe or effective. There are a large number who are raising red flags and they are causing heart and blood problems in a lot of people. Interestingly, they are frequently censored or not given a platform by media outlets who receive funding from companies like Pfizer. Why not have open discussion and debate instead of censorship if these shots are safe and effective? If you want to eliminate vaccine hesitancy, you don't do it by silencing people who raise legitimate concerns while trying to force people to take them. There's nothing constitutional about that, that's more like fascism and tyranny than anything else.

There also was no double blind placebo study beyond 2 weeks, which is interesting considering you are not considered fully vaccinated until 14 days after the second dose.

There's nothing about this whole situation that makes me confident that I can trust these companies or politicians with my health.

Of course, not all of the hundreds of thousands of scientists, PHD's, and MD's are going to agree about the safety and effectiveness of the vaccines. But the vast majority do agree, including those that study the vaccines and the disease the closest.

The placebo subjects involves a vaccine's efficacy, not its safety. The efficacy has since been proven in the field, first in preventing infections and later vs. the Delta variant in keeping people out of hospitals and from dying from it.

The pandemic requires a quick and immediate response. It's not going to wait weeks, months, or years for the Legislature and the public to debate which actions should be taken and which should not. It's one of the reasons why we elect Presidents and Governors in the first place, so as to take immediate and necessary action in a crisis. It's no different than a military response to an attack against an invader. The President has the authority, subject to Congressional review, to order our military to repel an attacker. Same goes with Governors. They have the authority to activate the National Guard in the event of a crisis.

 

[PackerNation]

Well, they have "cigar bars" where people can go in and drink, smoke all they want and I would think businesses could do the same thing, especially restaurants. But, honestly, I prefer clean smoke free environments even though I partake in a cigar every now and then. My back porch is my favorite place. But from a "freedom" standpoint, I was against all of the smoking bans.

I have been in restaurants in Austin with my dogs, usually outdoors only but they are all over down here. Service dogs are tolerated by a lot of places.

Of course, there are exceptions. There's exceptions to the vaccine mandates, too.

The problem with that line of thinking is that you'd be constantly moving the goal posts. They were 95% effective in January so let's slap on the mandates. Oh, wait, it's July and now they're not as effective against the Delta variant, so let's suspend the mandate.

Well, I think the mandate was done too early and too soon. They had to know the shots effectiveness would wear down and a booster was needed. Now, what? What if the booster doesn't really work or you need another 1 year from now? I get your point but that is why I want doctors and hospitals to lead the way, not government. People, in general, are more receptive to doing things when it isn't the government leading the way. At least in my experience.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Mine is that time was, and is, a luxury we did not have. The virus isn't going to wait around. It's enough that the trials have proven these vaccines to be safe and effective and for the FDA, acting on the advice of an independent panel, to have approved them for their use. Once those steps have occurred, I'm good with the mandates.

The government must lead the way. Without the government issuing their mandates, there isn't the legal justification for private industry to issue theirs. I'm no fan of Joe Biden's, but they've worked closely with private industry on these mandates and for the most part, have secured a consensus opinion.

I want doctors and hospitals to lead the way, not government. In any case, I hope it all works out for everyone because I think this virus is too far spread to not be a new medical issue for the coming generations. Makes me wonder what is just around the corner. God help us all if Ebola figures out a way to become resilient enough to flourish in 1st world countries.

Just who do you think works at the CDC and FDA? Doctors. Have you ever looked at the panel that the CDC relies on for their recommendations? Here's three of the 15 voting members of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP):

LEE, Grace M., MD, MPH
Associate Chief Medical Officer for Practice Innovation
Lucile Packard Children’s Hospital
Professor of Pediatrics, Stanford University School of Medicine

AULT, Kevin A., MD, FACOG, FIDSA
Professor and Division Director
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology
University of Kansas Medical Center
Kansas City, KS

BROOKS, Oliver, MD, FAAP
Chief Medical Officer
Watts HealthCare Corporation
Los Angeles, CA
Past President, National Medical Association

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/members/index.html

It's a who's who of the medical community. Those are the types of people the government is relying on for their advice. Note: You won't see Joe Rogan's name in there.

The CDC can be very political. Do we really want people like Dr. Fauci making decisions for the entire country? Case in point, most scientists agree with Climate warming as an issue because if they do, they get funding. If they don't, they do not get funding. But do they really? It's a proven fact that the earth was hotter millions of years ago before man was around.

We can go on forever with this and I'll just end with saying I respect your position and it has some merit, but I want the freedom of personal choice at this point. I don't want a mandate to be weaponized against people for political reasons or because they choose to not get vaccinated for "XYZ" reasons.

 

[cymatica]

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/cor ... e/2652161/

8 people died of covid at Connecticut nursing home, all were fully vaccinated. I thought it was supposed to prevent death or serious illness.

87 of 89 residents were vaccinated. This is not a vaccine. Vaccines actually build your immunity preventing infection and transmission, if this is a vaccine, it's a very poor one at that and anyone who supports mandating this faulty product is doing so out of pure ignorance

 

[cymatica]

Yes we are a representative republic, the supreme court is not our representative. No the supreme court is not the ultimate authority of constitutionality. They are 1 branch of government and many their decisions have been ignored throughout our history by the other branches. Separation of powers exist for a reason.

Sorry, but the Supreme Court IS the ultimate judge of what laws/mandates are Constitutional and which are not. It's their sole task. They have no other responsibility other than making sure that the Constitution is upheld.

No Insley does not have the authority to force mask mandates or proof of vaccination on private businesses or individuals.

From the House Republicans website:

State law gives the governor authority to take extraordinary action during an emergency. The law authorizes the governor alone to call a “state of emergency.” It is not specific about when the state of emergency ends, although it does require the governor to lift the state of emergency when the situation stabilizes.

The governor has two ways to suspend existing law in an emergency. First, the governor can “prohibit” otherwise legal conduct to deal with an emergency. For example, the governor could impose curfews and prohibit people from gathering at certain areas, if necessary, to deal with an emergency.

Second, the governor also may waive existing laws and regulations when necessary to deal with an emergency. For example, in 2020, the governor closed state offices during the lockdown and required most state employees to work from home. There is an existing law requiring people to pass an in-person eyesight exam to receive a new driver’s license. Because the licensing offices were closed, the law would have prevented people from being able to receive a new driver’s licenses during the lockdown. So, that part of the law was waived to allow new licenses to be issued without the in-person exam.

https://houserepublicans.wa.gov/coronavirus/governor/

Not all scientists, PHDs, or MDs think these vaccines are safe or effective. There are a large number who are raising red flags and they are causing heart and blood problems in a lot of people. Interestingly, they are frequently censored or not given a platform by media outlets who receive funding from companies like Pfizer. Why not have open discussion and debate instead of censorship if these shots are safe and effective? If you want to eliminate vaccine hesitancy, you don't do it by silencing people who raise legitimate concerns while trying to force people to take them. There's nothing constitutional about that, that's more like fascism and tyranny than anything else.

There also was no double blind placebo study beyond 2 weeks, which is interesting considering you are not considered fully vaccinated until 14 days after the second dose.

There's nothing about this whole situation that makes me confident that I can trust these companies or politicians with my health.

Of course, not all of the hundreds of thousands of scientists, PHD's, and MD's are going to agree about the safety and effectiveness of the vaccines. But the vast majority do agree, including those that study the vaccines and the disease the closest.

The placebo subjects involves a vaccine's efficacy, not its safety. The efficacy has since been proven in the field, first in preventing infections and later vs. the Delta variant in keeping people out of hospitals and from dying from it.

The pandemic requires a quick and immediate response. It's not going to wait weeks, months, or years for the Legislature and the public to debate which actions should be taken and which should not. It's one of the reasons why we elect Presidents and Governors in the first place, so as to take immediate and necessary action in a crisis. It's no different than a military response to an attack against an invader. The President has the authority, subject to Congressional review, to order our military to repel an attacker. Same goes with Governors. They have the authority to activate the National Guard in the event of a crisis.

Covid was never an appropriate emergency that required mandates.
, no matter how much fear porn you've consumed. It has a high survivability rate and can be treated successfully with therapeutics at early onset. The vast majority of deaths and serious illness were in the elderly, as with every illness. I know people like to lump the elderly and young into one statistic to push agendas. I know dozens of people, including myself, who had it and fought it off within a week or 2, 1 person who had more sever symptoms was my 65 year old aunt.

The "quick and immediate" responses do not work. The lockdowns did not work, masks didn't, now the vaccines are not working. The nurses and doctors who were exposed to thousands of patients last year did not die en mass.

If you want to default to the supreme court to tell you what is constitutional, then it's nice to know you support their past decisions of pro segregation.

 

[RiverDog]

Covid was never an appropriate emergency that required mandates.
, no matter how much fear prawn you've consumed. It has a high survivability rate and can be treated successfully with therapeutics at early onset. The vast majority of deaths and serious illness were in the elderly, as with every illness. I know people like to lump the elderly and young into one statistic to push agendas. I know dozens of people, including myself, who had it and fought it off within a week or 2, 1 person who had more sever symptoms was my 65 year old aunt.

The problem isn't the severity of the disease, it's that everybody gets sick at the same time, overwhelming our health care system. Several months ago, our hospitals here in the Tri Cities, an area with a low vaccination rate, was having to ship patients over 500 miles to find an open bed because our hospitals were overwhelmed with Covid patients.

The "quick and immediate" responses do not work. The lockdowns did not work, masks didn't, now the vaccines are not working. The nurses and doctors who were exposed to thousands of patients last year did not die en mass.

So your solution is to do nothing and just let it do what it's going to do?

If you want to default to the supreme court to tell you what is constitutional, then it's nice to know you support their past decisions of pro segregation.

Stop putting words into my mouth! I never once said that I always support all SCOTUS decisions, and certainly not those involving racial segregation.

Since you seem to suffer from a lack of reading comprehension, here's exactly what I said about Supreme Court decisions, which includes those on racial segregation:

"The Supreme Court has often times changed its position on a number of issues, but they are the final arbitrator until they say otherwise. Whether we agree with them or not is irrelevant. We have to abide by their decisions if we are to be a society governed by the rule of law."