Ken Norton has to go

[hawks85]

I have to vent. Norton is such a garbage DC. We have to try someone else. 2 weeks in a row where we get roasted, and I'm sick and tired of it. When a Safety is your leading Sacker your Defense has major issues. No F'ing pressure at all. I'm not even gonna blame the players for this. Norton has a track record of being absolutely terrible as a DC. It was the same way in Oakland as well. Bottom of the barrel in every defensive category. Norton has to go plain and simple. If Adams wasn't on this team we would be 0-2.

So its Norton's fault JS/PC jacked around all off-season and didn't address the pass-rush?

They had Clowney last year and they still were terrible. It's not the players....completely. Norton has to step down and let someone else have a crack at being a DC.

That's because they had nobody across from Clowney and nobody in the middle, not because Clowney was AT ALL considered to be enough DL help. That's why we also signed Ansah, who busted for us.

The last time we had what would be considered league-standard defensive line talent for an entire season was 2015.

And who was the DC back in 2015, I know for a fact it wasn't Norton. You must think Norton is a god send for a DC. Everything I have stated are facts. Norton is a terrible DC. He was in Oakland and thats why they fired his ass, and now he's back here because he's a Pete Carrol guy, and not the best man for the job. Your talking about failed something or whatever you were saying. Norton sucks as a DC, and I know I am not the only one on this board who thinks that.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

So its Norton's fault JS/PC jacked around all off-season and didn't address the pass-rush?

They had Clowney last year and they still were terrible. It's not the players....completely. Norton has to step down and let someone else have a crack at being a DC.

That's because they had nobody across from Clowney and nobody in the middle, not because Clowney was AT ALL considered to be enough DL help. That's why we also signed Ansah, who busted for us.

The last time we had what would be considered league-standard defensive line talent for an entire season was 2015.

And who was the DC back in 2015, I know for a fact it wasn't Norton. You must think Norton is a god send for a DC. Everything I have stated are facts. Norton is a terrible DC. He was in Oakland and thats why they fired his ass, and now he's back here because he's a Pete Carrol guy, and not the best man for the job. Your talking about failed something or whatever you were saying. Norton sucks as a DC, and I know I am not the only one on this board who thinks that.

I'm well used to scapegoating on this board. Coordinators always get blamed for everything, usually because they're regarded as more replaceable rather than because of anything they actually have or haven't done.

It's just disappointing that we never seem to rise above it as a community, despite Ad Hawk's attempts to elevate the dialogue in other threads. Nobody here has any schematic or tape-based reasons to dislike Norton beyond "blitz more", which is easily proven to be a bad idea against both the teams we've played so far.

I'm no huge fan of Norton, despite your attempts to make this all about me because you can't defend your points. Heck, Seahawks Twitter will probably be digging some stuff up on him. But it'll be nice to see it from someone who understands coverages, schemes, and play calls, and perhaps someone who's willing to acknowledge the impact of losing starters during the game and being given possibly the worst defensive line in franchise history.

 

[hawks85]

They had Clowney last year and they still were terrible. It's not the players....completely. Norton has to step down and let someone else have a crack at being a DC.

That's because they had nobody across from Clowney and nobody in the middle, not because Clowney was AT ALL considered to be enough DL help. That's why we also signed Ansah, who busted for us.

The last time we had what would be considered league-standard defensive line talent for an entire season was 2015.

And who was the DC back in 2015, I know for a fact it wasn't Norton. You must think Norton is a god send for a DC. Everything I have stated are facts. Norton is a terrible DC. He was in Oakland and thats why they fired his ass, and now he's back here because he's a Pete Carrol guy, and not the best man for the job. Your talking about failed something or whatever you were saying. Norton sucks as a DC, and I know I am not the only one on this board who thinks that.

I'm well used to scapegoating on this board. Coordinators always get blamed for everything, usually because they're regarded as more replaceable rather than because of anything they actually have or haven't done.

It's just disappointing that we never seem to rise above it as a community, despite Ad Hawk's attempts to elevate the dialogue in other threads. Nobody here has any schematic or tape-based reasons to dislike Norton beyond "blitz more", which is easily proven to be a bad idea against both the teams we've played so far.

I'm no huge fan of Norton, despite your attempts to make this all about me because you can't defend your points. Heck, Seahawks Twitter will probably be digging some stuff up on him. But it'll be nice to see it from someone who understands coverages, schemes, and play calls, and perhaps someone who's willing to acknowledge the impact of losing starters during the game and being given possibly the worst defensive line in franchise history.

I refuse to blame the entire Defense for not generating pressure or disrupting the QB. It's been this way since Norton has been DC. When Richard was here at least we were a top 10 overall Defense. Norton isn't aggressive enough and has zero creativity. There entire Defense is rush 4 drop 3 blitz Adams. Teams are going to figure that shit out. Norton needs to muster up plays and get creative.

 

[Maelstrom787]

I have to vent. Norton is such a garbage DC. We have to try someone else. 2 weeks in a row where we get roasted, and I'm sick and tired of it. When a Safety is your leading Sacker your Defense has major issues. No F'ing pressure at all. I'm not even gonna blame the players for this. Norton has a track record of being absolutely terrible as a DC. It was the same way in Oakland as well. Bottom of the barrel in every defensive category. Norton has to go plain and simple. If Adams wasn't on this team we would be 0-2.

Through two games, Jamal Adams is on pace for 16 sacks. I think it's a poor argument to say that him leading the team is sacks in indicative of issues.

Not to say there aren't issues on the line, of course. Just that this doesn't really make sense.

 

[Mad Dog]

Yeah I got you, I understand what you are saying. I honestly think a switch to a 3-4 defense wouldn't hurt to try out.

In mid season? When you've spent all offseason and training camp instilling a 4-3 Under system?

Methinks you don't understand the complexities of defensive scheming. Player's roles would dramatically change and all have to be taught fresh. While trying to gameplan each week.

Never gonna happen, my friend.

 

[Mad Dog]

I refuse to blame the entire Defense for not generating pressure or disrupting the QB. It's been this way since Norton has been DC. When Richard was here at least we were a top 10 overall Defense. Norton isn't aggressive enough and has zero creativity. There entire Defense is rush 4 drop 3 blitz Adams. Teams are going to figure that $h!t out. Norton needs to muster up plays and get creative.

Not sure you shoot all your bullets in the first couple weeks of the season. Once teams figure out the Adams blitz, you add a wrinkle where he fakes it and you send Wagner. Right now the Adams blitz is working. And most teams that blitz frequently get burned. Blitzes should be used sparingly to create pressure.

What we need is better pass rushers that can beat one on one blocks. No amount of creativity will make up for a lack of talent.

Chip Kelly was one of the most creative minds in football. Never did anything in the NFL. Largely because he never had talent.

 

[hawks85]

Yeah I got you, I understand what you are saying. I honestly think a switch to a 3-4 defense wouldn't hurt to try out.

In mid season? When you've spent all offseason and training camp instilling a 4-3 Under system?

Methinks you don't understand the complexities of defensive scheming. Player's roles would dramatically change and all have to be taught fresh. While trying to gameplan each week.

Never gonna happen, my friend.

I meant next year. I understand defense just fine. I was a DB in high school, so I got the jist of it.

 

[hawks85]

I refuse to blame the entire Defense for not generating pressure or disrupting the QB. It's been this way since Norton has been DC. When Richard was here at least we were a top 10 overall Defense. Norton isn't aggressive enough and has zero creativity. There entire Defense is rush 4 drop 3 blitz Adams. Teams are going to figure that $h!t out. Norton needs to muster up plays and get creative.

Not sure you shoot all your bullets in the first couple weeks of the season. Once teams figure out the Adams blitz, you add a wrinkle where he fakes it and you send Wagner. Right now the Adams blitz is working. And most teams that blitz frequently get burned. Blitzes should be used sparingly to create pressure.

What we need is better pass rushers that can beat one on one blocks. No amount of creativity will make up for a lack of talent.

Chip Kelly was one of the most creative minds in football. Never did anything in the NFL. Largely because he never had talent.

Add a wrinkle? Yup, that is correct, but my issue is it won't be done....hence the creativity I'm bitching about.

 

[SantaClaraHawk]

The time to discuss this was frankly february. he is not going to go unless wildly crappy streaks even the pessimists don't estimate befall us and keep us...befelt?...into late november.

he made this d and pete has an o philosophy and that's what we have to live with.

 

[John63]

My only problem with Norton being the scape goat is we don't know how much is him and how much is PC. Remember PC is the supposed defensive genius and has a lot of impact on it. So how much is Norton and how much is PC. Also, how much is their lack of making a real effort to get pass rushers? I mean Irvin is fine but he was not a double digit sack person.

 

[Hockey Guy]

Yeah, our defense gave up a grand total of 10 points thru 3 quarters against a really good team while playing a 3rd string safety for half that time & the DC should be fired. Makes sense, around here at least.

We can all agree that the 4th quarter was a total tire fire, & for 2 games in a row, but the defense is not the total liability that everyone is wringing their hands over. Like all teams that this happens to, we just have to be more aggressive on defense. A pass rush would help too but that is a personnel thing & not coaching. It's tough to make chicken salad out of chicken ****.

Why can't we give any credit to the opposition when we give all the credit to RW when he has done the exact same thing to opposing defenses late in games when behind for years? Instead the opposition sucks & everybody involved should be fired.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Some good points right there. It IS ok to actually give credit to your opponent. Believe it or not, other teams are good too.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

These types of threads always confuse me, and they did before too when people were calling for Cable's head, or Bevell's, or Kris Richards, or heck even Pete's back in the day.

They confuse me because;

1. We're 2-0 and one of the odd's on favorites to get to the SB
2. The time to switch coordinators is in the off season when you have the most time and the most candidates to choose from, vet out and decide on.

You certainly don't fire your main coordinator mid-season, unless you're 2-8 and you've lost the team and need to light a fire under everyone, including your staff.

But 2-0, winning and the only candidates you'd have to choose from is.........wait for it.............inexperienced position coaches on Norton's staff.............who would..........wait for it..............coach like Norton.

Huh?

 

[TwistedHusky]

Maybe.

But Norton has been below average since he got here.

Yes, we were spoiled a bit. We are used to our defenses repeatedly holding offenses scoreless for multiple quarters, maybe giving up field goals. Unreasonable without half the roster being HOF quality players like then.

But he wasn't even as good as the guy he replaced. And he wasn't good at his previous stop.

And last year he fielded a #26 (bottom 6) defense. WITH Clowney. WITH Wagner. WITH a decent #1 corner and serviceable #2. It wasn't as if we fielded a defense full of holes. And that was WITH our offense running the ball & clock down through the game, limiting opposing touches.

He doesn't have our best players. The offense does. We made personnel decisions that changed our offense and made it harder on the defense. Acknowledged.

Still, Norton is not even average. Hard to dispute that at this point. Nothing in his body of work shows he ever was or will be an even above average DC.


(Now is that Norton's fault? Could like Schotty where he was being forced to play MartyBall? Then, finally able to open up, we see what looks like the 2nd Coming of Greatest Show On Turf?

Carroll seems rigid in how his coordinators execute, unless he *allegedly* gets threatened by his own QB. Perhaps this keeps our DC from being successful? But right now, the DC is not helping - he is hindering.)


Scoring 30+ a game, and still coming down to almost losing? Isn't that the NFL equivalent of Texas Tech? Maybe there is introspection needed to fix. Right now, our weakest link might not be the OL, or even DL, it might be the DC.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Maybe.

But Norton has been below average since he got here.

Yes, we were spoiled a bit. We are used to our defenses repeatedly holding offenses scoreless for multiple quarters, maybe giving up field goals. Unreasonable without half the roster being HOF quality players like then.

But he wasn't even as good as the guy he replaced. And he wasn't good at his previous stop.

And last year he fielded a #26 (bottom 6) defense. WITH Clowney. WITH Wagner. WITH a decent #1 corner and serviceable #2. It wasn't as if we fielded a defense full of holes. And that was WITH our offense running the ball & clock down through the game, limiting opposing touches.

He doesn't have our best players. The offense does. We made personnel decisions that changed our offense and made it harder on the defense. Acknowledged.

Still, Norton is not even average. Hard to dispute that at this point. Nothing in his body of work shows he ever was or will be an even above average DC.


(Now is that Norton's fault? Could like Schotty where he was being forced to play MartyBall? Then, finally able to open up, we see what looks like the 2nd Coming of Greatest Show On Turf?

Carroll seems rigid in how his coordinators execute, unless he *allegedly* gets threatened by his own QB. Perhaps this keeps our DC from being successful? But right now, the DC is not helping - he is hindering.)


Scoring 30+ a game, and still coming down to almost losing? Isn't that the NFL equivalent of Texas Tech? Maybe there is introspection needed to fix. Right now, our weakest link might not be the OL, or even DL, it might be the DC.

I'm not defending Norton, I'd be fine with a new coordinator..............in the off season.

When has a winning team being picked by most to go far into the playoffs ever fired one of their coordinators?

Talk about knee jerk. Pete and John do absolutely nothing about the D-line in the off season, including quality depth to help out the mediocre starters they did sign.....and that's Norton's fault?

Maybe he is part of the problem. But again, the time to fire him and get a really good coordinator is not game #3 after going 2-0. It's in February or March.

I don't see how firing him now and promoting a position coach solves anything.

 

[DomeHawk]

I want to attach the lack of a pre-season to some of this. For the injuries as well.

It's difficult to know, probably will play out as the season progresses.

 

[DomeHawk]

Some good points right there. It IS ok to actually give credit to your opponent. Believe it or not, other teams are good too.

Totally agree, it's like watching an opposing team's fan's comments after a game. Post after post of what they did wrong to hand the game to us never acknowledging the good things the Hawks did. Don't wanna be like that.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Ken Norton did not have bottom 6 defensive talent last year.

So the results do not mesh with the roster.

 

[HawkRiderFan]

When it comes to schemes where the DC could do something different:

1. I know teams will run plays to get mismatches and spring guys open but once he started getting big yards, was there anyway Norton could have taken Edelman away and force Cam to go elsewhere?

2. What was it about our coverage that gave up such big chunk plays when that's what's the D should have been defending? Was it all due to things breaking down in the back end due to lack of pressure?

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Ken Norton did not have bottom 6 defensive talent last year.

So the results do not mesh with the roster.

Other than Wagner and Clowney, who did Norton have last year?

Diggs healthy for all of three games? Heck, Clowney was hurt the last part of the season. So he didn't even have him healthy.

Look at the roster, that indeed was a bottom of the league defense personnel wise.

Who are you replacing Norton with btw?