This thread is for Twisted and anyone else of course

[OrangeGravy]

To discuss and debate how much or how little Pete meddles with his coordinators. You can put all your evidence on either side right here, in your very own thread and everyone else can get on with discussing the pros and cons of the mentioned potential DC candidates.

Gracias!

 

[TwistedHusky]

You have a year to find out, don't you?

Everyone is now completely sure that all these problems with the coordinators was really all Wilson.

It is going to be hard to pin that on him when we replace the DC and have the same problems as the old DC isn't it?


But it isn't about Carroll 'controlling' his coordinators really. He could do zombie mind control and if it worked, I would be for it.

The problem is hiring terrible or middling coordinators, and he did that going all the way back to USC. Not sure what we are 'proving' but you should probably ask the USC fans...

 

[OrangeGravy]

Thanks for putting it here!

 

[jammerhawk]

Here’s the problem with the above idea: those terrible coordinators keep on finding other good jobs around the NFL, some here even want several of them back.

Maybe it’s more than that to those complaining, like long held bias or unreasonable unfounded dislike. Perhaps however, it really is Pete, or a bit of both. That said the team has had it’s longest period of success under Carroll’s leadership so it hasn’t truly been that bad.

I’m not sure save for Bellichek any other HC recently has had such a long record of success. It certainly has to be the case that every HC works with his Coordinators but those guys have responsibility for their units as much as the HC has overall responsibility for his team. I don’t think it’s fair to call it meddling, but some might call that semantics.

The real question in the end certainly is: is it workin?

The game has changed and defending against a passing attack has become critically important. There it was clear the prior DC and passing defence coordinators were not getting it done and it was taking most of a season for them to make their units to begin to look respectable while not being able to effectively figure out how to use different players to their best abilities. That said defending the run is just as much a need for a D to be effective in making their opponent one dimensional, thus more easily figured out.

I suspect it is not unreasonable to characterize the Seahawks of having a way they play D, in that regard I genuinely hope PC or the 4 present candidates can bring some fresh ideas to the table to create a better D. Each of the 4 are good coaches by almost every metric determining which one fits the best is the job of the HC who ultimately carries the can. So far thankfully the invitations continue and there are some interesting candidates.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Here’s the problem with the above idea: those terrible coordinators keep on finding other good jobs around the NFL, some here even want several of them back.

What does the meddling have to do with whether these are good coaches and coordinators?

Obviously you don't get to the NFL level of coaching without merit or competency.

That doesn't absolve Pete from some of the "meddling" criticisms just because these are good coaches. We're talking about in game meddling, development meddling, scheme and playcalling meddling. Not allowing his coaches to have control over what he hired them to do.

That's what this discussion is about.

 

[Jville]

To discuss and debate how much or how little Pete meddles with his coordinators. You can put all your evidence on either side right here, in your very own thread and everyone else can get on with discussing the pros and cons of the mentioned potential DC candidates.

Gracias!

Separating out long standing perceived grievances into a thread of their own would be a huge long over due boost to forum discussion of other topics and current events.

With regards to meddling allegations, managing a group of people is an art. Outsider critics, lacking complete understanding of the make up and style of a specific manager, are going to allege a wide range of assertions. Some are going to allege micromanagement. Some are going to claim too much leeway allowed to delegated authority. Many are going to fall somewhere in between those two extremes. Such a discussion is a unique subject onto itself. Unlikely to result in forum consensus.

I do think we can share a common goal of building a better forum. Respecting thread subjects by staying on topic would help greatly.

My request: Please don't pollute forum discussion.

Muchas Gracias!

 

[TwistedHusky]

My root problem issue with Pete on coordinators is that he isn't great at picking them and he keeps the poor-performing ones too long. (I think because he knows he is the one putting them in that situation).

But there are definitely plausible arguments for issues with how he works with his coordinators. There are others with some pretty compelling evidence that Pete is control-oriented and keeps his coordinators from freely executing their game plans. It would be pretty mind-blowing for someone to be a Seahawk fan this long and not to have noticed it in the past 10 years. (Since we are just covering the Carroll years)

So a conversation on why this keeps happening, as a root problem, seems on point.





HOWEVER

Root problems are not solved by shearing off the leaves Jville.

It isn't 'polluting' a discussion if you address a root problem that affects if not literally determines the outcome of an issue brought up in a thread.

This is like arguing over how many 1st round picks we need for a trade, when we know damned well that we have a history of doing poorly with 1st round picks. Which clearly impacts the success and thus the likely realized value of the trade in the first place.
Not bringing up the subject, or somehow being told that bringing up the subject is 'polluting' the debate, is only if people cannot move to point A when looking at a B to C issue.

Also, the concept of 'polluting' a thread is funny, since relevance is entirely subjective. If it isn't relevant, it gets ignored and falls off the table. When it gets responded to? It is part of the discourse.

 

[jammerhawk]

Whatever.

Quinn was a great coordinator, there have been others too who were hired away, so the generalized PC sucks at picking coordinators doesn't have objective support.

Wasn't the point of the thread to discuss specific grievances and whether there was evidence rather than simple bias that Pete was a meddler? Then further what was the consensus about the candidates for the DC and defensive pass coordinator jobs.

Isn't it part of Pete's job to be a part of the decisions made by both primary coordinators?

 

[AubHawk71]

Pete Carroll will deliver more wins than losses in a season, unless RW is injured.

PC has less NFL wins than Chuck Knox or Mike Holmgren

PC will never come for the jugular in the first quarter and put up double digits to let his defense guard the lead

PC will let any team throw third and long passes for a first down all day long, because one 50 yard TD pass would crush his whole identity. (apparently)

PC will not figure out how to get his offense to convert a third down

PC has a special connection with his players

PC will never draft high, because he enjoys developing players in his own image, and will always be a college coach at heart.

PC caught lightening in a bottle in 2013 with Russ and the LOB and Beast Mode, and will try to recapture that magic until his dying day.

PC could manage to win another SB if Penny becomes Beast 2.0

PC allowed the worst offensive call in SB history to break our hearts at the end of a Superbowl

PC coaching style is stale and outdated

PC roams the sideline like a young man

PC once threw his hand warmer on the ground instead of the challenge flag

PC brought a SB title to Seattle

PC has a golden ticket to retirement

PC will coach every game so that there's no point in watching until the last half of the 4th quarter.

PC has been successful in Seattle

PC coaches games that are always the same, and can get tiresome to watch because the offense is on the field for, like, 12 minutes per game.

PC and RW are like water and oil, but it works most of the time.

PC will always want to 'run the ball more' and waste upper tier receivers because 'Bad things happen when the ball is in the air'.

PC ain't going nowhere.

 

[Jville]

My root problem issue with Pete on coordinators is that he isn't great at picking them and he keeps the poor-performing ones too long. (I think because he knows he is the one putting them in that situation).

But there are definitely plausible arguments for issues with how he works with his coordinators. There are others with some pretty compelling evidence that Pete is control-oriented and keeps his coordinators from freely executing their game plans. It would be pretty mind-blowing for someone to be a Seahawk fan this long and not to have noticed it in the past 10 years. (Since we are just covering the Carroll years)

So a conversation on why this keeps happening, as a root problem, seems on point.





HOWEVER

Root problems are not solved by shearing off the leaves Jville.

It isn't 'polluting' a discussion if you address a root problem that affects if not literally determines the outcome of an issue brought up in a thread.

This is like arguing over how many 1st round picks we need for a trade, when we know damned well that we have a history of doing poorly with 1st round picks. Which clearly impacts the success and thus the likely realized value of the trade in the first place.
Not bringing up the subject, or somehow being told that bringing up the subject is 'polluting' the debate, is only if people cannot move to point A when looking at a B to C issue.

Also, the concept of 'polluting' a thread is funny, since relevance is entirely subjective. If it isn't relevant, it gets ignored and falls off the table. When it gets responded to? It is part of the discourse.

Thanks for posting your root problem in an appropriate thread.

Your publishing and repeating your multiple problems with Pete over and over again in multiple threads thru out the forum. Thus the pollution analogy. It's like watching someone drag the same boat from lake to lake ..... never cleaning the prop ..... spreading an invasive species to every lake and stream.

Please respect our lakes and streams. Don't pollute.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Pete has strrengths and weaknesses.

Those weaknesses are often the root problem to a number of issues. If it is relevant to the topic, and I feel like it, it is going to be brought up. Especially now that he isn't really delivering much of his previous strengths.

The purpose is not whether someone likes it or not. You are free to ignore it or get me banned. Whatever.

If it isn't relevant, it won't get responded to.

The purpose is discourse. And relevance is subjective.

But it isn't something likely to change.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

I personally believe it is two things:

1. Carroll gives freedom for coordinators both offense and defense to call games their way as long as it’s still under Carroll’s system and philosophy.

2. The offense with these new coordinators doesn’t seem to be all that different from the other past coordinators.

Wilson for the most part controls everything the offensive coordinator can call.

From seeing Wilson under these coordinators for the past several years, nothing really changes. On the macro level, Wilson still plays hero ball and does not throw timed passes.

Conclusion: it doesn’t really matter who the offensive coordinator for Wilson is, Wilson will play how Wilson chooses to play. No coordinator can change that.

Defensive coordinator differences you can see how the created pressure differs. Some blitz more than others. Some press more than others. Some play more off coverage. But still under the cover 3 Carroll system.

This year Carroll elected to play more cover 2.

The coordinators decide how to play within these two schemes and Carroll gives them that freedom. I believe that.

 

[TwistedHusky]

I think the bigger question is why the meddling.

Not even sure I am the standard bearer on the whole 'Pete meddling with coordinators just messes things up' but I cannot deny it sure looks like he is. Weirdly, that was supposed to be the reason sticking with Norton so long wouldn't be so bad - because Pete ultimately controls the defense.

And if Pete ultimately 'controls' (not delegates) the defense, then he is driving not just overseeing. That is literally one of the indicators of meddling. Actually meddling is less invasive.


So why?


And the answer is earlier in the thread where AubHawk gives a long list of what Pete generally does. Seemingly veering off topic but oddly on point. Because it tells us what we already know : People can Change, but Pete rarely does.

Pete isn't going to change. Or he will change grudgingly but turtle up at the first sign of adversity, back to the way he believes still works.

So Football has clearly changed. Just in the past 5 years. Certainly in the past 10.

And if Pete refuses to change, it totally makes sense that he would constantly try to inject his outdated ideas about what wins football games into his coordinators' gameplans. You win games now by passing the ball and stopping the pass. Period.

Go look at a list of the top passing offenses this year. It is basically a list of the playoff teams. That is not a coincidence.

Go look at a list of the top rushing offenses this year. There is no correlation at all to success running the ball and success making or advancing in the playoffs. The top teams are some bottom feeders, some good teams. some great teams that do everything well.




So now to root causes.

The guy making the decisions prioritizes running the ball and stopping the run. Looks at passes as higher risk so they better be higher reward.

You don't think that isn't going to impact his choice of coordinators? And even so, you don't think that he isn't going to inject his dinosaur football into the gameplan because it worked for him in the past?

Of course he is.

He would much rather run the ball and then use Wilson like LaMonica where possible. And that is what we get.

And he would much rather stop the run and try to drain the clock to limit touches by the opposing offense. Which he does as well.

Pete being Pete, believe his dinosaur football works almost assures he is going to meddle. Because few sane coordinator are going to want to play that way, at least not a capable, competent ones.

 

[LTH]

Pete Carroll is definitely a micromanager. There is no doubt about this.

But... So is every other coach in the league. That's what coaches do... they are responsible for every aspect of their team performance, there for, they ARE and SHOULD BE micromanagers. A coach that is not a micro manager is NOT a very good coach.

Carroll manages everything that has to do with a player or a coaches success on and off the field all the way from their diet and weight to any psychological issue that might in inhibit a player or coaches success all the way down to their cleat size.

A lot of people seem to think this is a problem

the people that have a problem with it are basing their perception off of assumption. It is NOT public how Pete runs his meetings. it's not public how Pete deals with his offensive coordinator and why he game plans they way he does or, even what liberties he gives any of his coaches or players for what ever reason.

So that being said continue on with your discussion...


LTH

 

[John63]

To discuss and debate how much or how little Pete meddles with his coordinators. You can put all your evidence on either side right here, in your very own thread and everyone else can get on with discussing the pros and cons of the mentioned potential DC candidates.

Gracias!

or you can look on the forum where the evidence has been posted many many times.

 

[John63]

I think the bigger question is why the meddling.

Not even sure I am the standard bearer on the whole 'Pete meddling with coordinators just messes things up' but I cannot deny it sure looks like he is. Weirdly, that was supposed to be the reason sticking with Norton so long wouldn't be so bad - because Pete ultimately controls the defense.

And if Pete ultimately 'controls' (not delegates) the defense, then he is driving not just overseeing. That is literally one of the indicators of meddling. Actually meddling is less invasive.


So why?


And the answer is earlier in the thread where AubHawk gives a long list of what Pete generally does. Seemingly veering off topic but oddly on point. Because it tells us what we already know : People can Change, but Pete rarely does.

Pete isn't going to change. Or he will change grudgingly but turtle up at the first sign of adversity, back to the way he believes still works.

So Football has clearly changed. Just in the past 5 years. Certainly in the past 10.

And if Pete refuses to change, it totally makes sense that he would constantly try to inject his outdated ideas about what wins football games into his coordinators' gameplans. You win games now by passing the ball and stopping the pass. Period.

Go look at a list of the top passing offenses this year. It is basically a list of the playoff teams. That is not a coincidence.

Go look at a list of the top rushing offenses this year. There is no correlation at all to success running the ball and success making or advancing in the playoffs. The top teams are some bottom feeders, some good teams. some great teams that do everything well.




So now to root causes.

The guy making the decisions prioritizes running the ball and stopping the run. Looks at passes as higher risk so they better be higher reward.

You don't think that isn't going to impact his choice of coordinators? And even so, you don't think that he isn't going to inject his dinosaur football into the gameplan because it worked for him in the past?

Of course he is.

He would much rather run the ball and then use Wilson like LaMonica where possible. And that is what we get.

And he would much rather stop the run and try to drain the clock to limit touches by the opposing offense. Which he does as well.

Pete being Pete, believe his dinosaur football works almost assures he is going to meddle. Because few sane coordinator are going to want to play that way, at least not a capable, competent ones.

Exactly and the proof everyone wants is right in his book

 

[LTH]

To discuss and debate how much or how little Pete meddles with his coordinators. You can put all your evidence on either side right here, in your very own thread and everyone else can get on with discussing the pros and cons of the mentioned potential DC candidates.

Gracias!

or you can look on the forum where the evidence has been posted many many times.

The truth is, there is very little evidence of anything because nobody knows the reasons why Pete does what he does...they dont make it public why they fired Norton or why they fired Schotty or why Pete might make an adjustment like simplifying the O. they don't go into detail on those issues . So, while you might think you have a reasonable understanding that makes perfect since to you, in reality it's all a personal perception that is based off of an assumption of circumstances that you really don't understand because there is not enough information to make a determination of what really going on.


LTH

 

[LTH]

I think the bigger question is why the meddling.

Not even sure I am the standard bearer on the whole 'Pete meddling with coordinators just messes things up' but I cannot deny it sure looks like he is. Weirdly, that was supposed to be the reason sticking with Norton so long wouldn't be so bad - because Pete ultimately controls the defense.

And if Pete ultimately 'controls' (not delegates) the defense, then he is driving not just overseeing. That is literally one of the indicators of meddling. Actually meddling is less invasive.


So why?


And the answer is earlier in the thread where AubHawk gives a long list of what Pete generally does. Seemingly veering off topic but oddly on point. Because it tells us what we already know : People can Change, but Pete rarely does.

Pete isn't going to change. Or he will change grudgingly but turtle up at the first sign of adversity, back to the way he believes still works.

So Football has clearly changed. Just in the past 5 years. Certainly in the past 10.

And if Pete refuses to change, it totally makes sense that he would constantly try to inject his outdated ideas about what wins football games into his coordinators' gameplans. You win games now by passing the ball and stopping the pass. Period.

Go look at a list of the top passing offenses this year. It is basically a list of the playoff teams. That is not a coincidence.

Go look at a list of the top rushing offenses this year. There is no correlation at all to success running the ball and success making or advancing in the playoffs. The top teams are some bottom feeders, some good teams. some great teams that do everything well.




So now to root causes.

The guy making the decisions prioritizes running the ball and stopping the run. Looks at passes as higher risk so they better be higher reward.

You don't think that isn't going to impact his choice of coordinators? And even so, you don't think that he isn't going to inject his dinosaur football into the gameplan because it worked for him in the past?

Of course he is.

He would much rather run the ball and then use Wilson like LaMonica where possible. And that is what we get.

And he would much rather stop the run and try to drain the clock to limit touches by the opposing offense. Which he does as well.

Pete being Pete, believe his dinosaur football works almost assures he is going to meddle. Because few sane coordinator are going to want to play that way, at least not a capable, competent ones.

Exactly and the proof everyone wants is right in his book

And you actually took the time to read his book? LOL I doubt that...


LTH

 

[TwistedHusky]

Maybe LTH.

But would you agree that 2 of Pete's biggest goals for his team are a successful run game & stopping the run?
That he starts each season with those at the top of his board?

Now, again - if we could be assured of being at least a top 7, if not top 5 rushing offense....would that make you confident we would make the playoffs?
(Because the numbers seem to indicate that you can be a tremendous rush offense and miss the playoffs easily.)


On the other hand, if you could be guaranteed to be one of the top 5 passing offenses - what do you think your chances at the playoffs would be?
(Because the #s seem to indicate they would be damn near 100%.)

Some of the top rushing offenses are missing the playoffs.
Almost all of the top passing offenses are making them.

So Pete goes in with goals for offense and defense - that have little to no correlation to success in the modern NFL.
Even if he is successful there is no guarantee of success!

You don't see that as being a problem for whatever coordinator needs to try to win while trying to somehow succeed at something that has little or no bearing on whether you end up a playoff team (a key goal of every NFL team)?

 

[LTH]

Maybe LTH.

But would you agree that 2 of Pete's biggest goals for his team are a successful run game & stopping the run?
That he starts each season with those at the top of his board?

Now, again - if we could be assured of being at least a top 7, if not top 5 rushing offense....would that make you confident we would make the playoffs?
(Because the numbers seem to indicate that you can be a tremendous rush offense and miss the playoffs easily.)


On the other hand, if you could be guaranteed to be one of the top 5 passing offenses - what do you think your chances at the playoffs would be?
(Because the #s seem to indicate they would be damn near 100%.)

Some of the top rushing offenses are missing the playoffs.
Almost all of the top passing offenses are making them.

So Pete goes in with goals for offense and defense - that have little to no correlation to success in the modern NFL.
Even if he is successful there is no guarantee of success!

You don't see that as being a problem for whatever coordinator needs to try to win while trying to somehow succeed at something that has little or no bearing on whether you end up a playoff team (a key goal of every NFL team)?

I agree that Pete Carroll believes that the run game is extremely important for the success of what the Hawks are trying to do offensively. But I would also agree that the passing game is just as important. from my understanding it's the balance of the two parts of the game that makes it very difficult for defenses to defend. That's the way I see it...I think being good at one alone is not the goal of what Carroll wants to see. He wants to see an efficient, well balanced explosive attack just like what they did against the Lions and the Cardinals. I see this philosophy not to be out dated but extremely effective when executed correctly.

That's the way I see it.

I don't see this scheme as being an issue for the teams success. I don't think a team wins consistently with out an effective run game, as well I don't think a team can win consistently with out a effective pass game. for a team to be an effective contender for the SB it has to be able to execute balance and I think that is the new NFL..

EDIT: or a team has to be able to dominate when it wants to with both the run and the pass the mix might depend on the opponent's strengths and weaknesses.

LTH