Benoit on the Double Edged Sword that is Russell Wilson

[SoulfishHawk]

Well, as much as I love Russ, the hero balls in to coverage need to be cut way back. No reason they can't just take what the D gives them and check down to guys who are open. I get it that they have made some great plays on long passes, but he needs to be more selective about it imo.

 

[Anthony!]

Well, as much as I love Russ, the hero balls in to coverage need to be cut way back. No reason they can't just take what the D gives them and check down to guys who are open. I get it that they have made some great plays on long passes, but he needs to be more selective about it imo.

First off the "hero Ball" is crap. That is not what the play is. 2nd if you listened to the announcers last game you would have heard them say numerous times there were not short or intermediate routes being run, they were all go routes, so what would you have him do when the only option he has is long routes. Now that is not always the case, however, unless you are Rw seeing what he sees, form his angle you really have no clue what is happening all you know is hey he is open short why throw long, there may be a legit reason for it. One would think having 6 years of great play, an SB, numerous trips to the playoffs RW would get the benefit of the doubt, but a few here use it as their excuse to rag on him, To them, I say go watch another team. You want to complain when he throw a stupid interception I get it, so am I. However this I saw something open, or shy do this is crap. Argue fact, not perception.

 

[Sgt Largent]

The simple answer for why coaches would take an inferior player over an unorthodox one is because they don't know how to coach the unique talent.

Coaching knowledge is passed down, generation to generation, copied and recopied, with minor tweaks considered innovative and ground breaking. Especially at the NFL level. You don't get a lot of time to experiment, because you would be out of a job before you could get the kinks worked out.

I'll also posit that most of the "insider" guys that get quoted occasionally in articles with what seem over negative comments, are basically saying, "I would have no idea what to do with him, so I don't like him as good as "cookie cutter #_.

 

[Seymour]

Well, as much as I love Russ, the hero balls in to coverage need to be cut way back. No reason they can't just take what the D gives them and check down to guys who are open. I get it that they have made some great plays on long passes, but he needs to be more selective about it imo.

First off the "hero Ball" is crap. That is not what the play is. 2nd if you listened to the announcers last game you would have heard them say numerous times there were not short or intermediate routes being run, they were all go routes, so what would you have him do when the only option he has is long routes. Now that is not always the case, however, unless you are Rw seeing what he sees, form his angle you really have no clue what is happening all you know is hey he is open short why throw long, there may be a legit reason for it. One would think having 6 years of great play, an SB, numerous trips to the playoffs RW would get the benefit of the doubt, but a few here use it as their excuse to rag on him, To them, I say go watch another team. You want to complain when he throw a stupid interception I get it, so am I. However this I saw something open, or shy do this is crap. Argue fact, not perception.

Ummm....throw it away? :roll: Pretty much anything but throw into double coverage against top pass defenders.

Soulfish is correct. We both stick up for Russell plenty, and that was a hero ball shot by definition right there.

 

[Anthony!]

The simple answer for why coaches would take an inferior player over an unorthodox one is because they don't know how to coach the unique talent.

Coaching knowledge is passed down, generation to generation, copied and recopied, with minor tweaks considered innovative and ground breaking. Especially at the NFL level. You don't get a lot of time to experiment, because you would be out of a job before you could get the kinks worked out.

Agreed, except I am sure that with a decent oline and an OC that doe snot put Rw running around as part of his game plan, Rw would not have to do it as much. That is what people forget the whole running around thing is part of their game plan, Imagine if it was not and they had an oline with a WR or 2 that can actually create space.


The reality is this article was Click bait you know that because of his I am a Stafford fan and Stafford is better. Most of what is said is complete BS and factually wrong. However, it did its job it got him clicks and us talking about it.

 

[Seanhawk]

* With the way people train these days I don't really buy that NFL players wear down throughout a game anymore -- they definitely wear down over the course of the year due to multiple injuries, but it's not a stamina issue, IMO.

No way man. Two three and outs in a row by our offense and our D is gassed and is free of any criticism.

 

[Anthony!]

Well, as much as I love Russ, the hero balls in to coverage need to be cut way back. No reason they can't just take what the D gives them and check down to guys who are open. I get it that they have made some great plays on long passes, but he needs to be more selective about it imo.

First off the "hero Ball" is crap. That is not what the play is. 2nd if you listened to the announcers last game you would have heard them say numerous times there were not short or intermediate routes being run, they were all go routes, so what would you have him do when the only option he has is long routes. Now that is not always the case, however, unless you are Rw seeing what he sees, form his angle you really have no clue what is happening all you know is hey he is open short why throw long, there may be a legit reason for it. One would think having 6 years of great play, an SB, numerous trips to the playoffs RW would get the benefit of the doubt, but a few here use it as their excuse to rag on him, To them, I say go watch another team. You want to complain when he throw a stupid interception I get it, so am I. However this I saw something open, or shy do this is crap. Argue fact, not perception.

Ummm....throw it away? :roll: Pretty much anything but throw into double coverage against top pass defenders.

Soulfish is correct. We both stick up for Russell plenty, and that was a hero ball shot by definition right there.

and then you and others would complain he throws the ball away to much, and FYI if Doug does not fall down on one and get turned around on the other both passes may be caught, or at the very least knocked down, and Doug even said that. So Soulfish is incorrect.

 

[Uncle Si]

Well, as much as I love Russ, the hero balls in to coverage need to be cut way back. No reason they can't just take what the D gives them and check down to guys who are open. I get it that they have made some great plays on long passes, but he needs to be more selective about it imo.

First off the "hero Ball" is crap. That is not what the play is. 2nd if you listened to the announcers last game you would have heard them say numerous times there were not short or intermediate routes being run, they were all go routes, so what would you have him do when the only option he has is long routes. Now that is not always the case, however, unless you are Rw seeing what he sees, form his angle you really have no clue what is happening all you know is hey he is open short why throw long, there may be a legit reason for it. One would think having 6 years of great play, an SB, numerous trips to the playoffs RW would get the benefit of the doubt, but a few here use it as their excuse to rag on him, To them, I say go watch another team. You want to complain when he throw a stupid interception I get it, so am I. However this I saw something open, or shy do this is crap. Argue fact, not perception.

Tone it down...

argue the post. this is attacking the poster, and questioning fandom because of criticism.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

No way in hell on that. Plus our oline comes with our o- coordinator.

IMO people DRAMATICALLY underestimate the effect of a QB on perceptions of offensive lines and their effectiveness pass blocking.

When Manning was on the Colts everyone thought he benefited from an O-line that pass blocked really well, and that he would be done in by a Broncos O-line that didn't.

Then he moved and everyone talked about how the Colts O-line (the same players!) were disasters in pass blocking, and the Broncos "became" one of the best pass blocking O-lines in football.

It's the same deal with the Saints, who supposedly always have an amazing O-line with great pass blockers, but as soon as those guys sign big money FA contracts with other teams every single one of them magically flames out.

Even this year it's the same deal with the 9ers. While Beathard was starting everyone talked about how the O-line was a total disaster, and since JG has been starting these last two games people are now talking about how the O-line has magically done a good job in pass-pro of protecting him.

This is, of course, absolute and total nonsense. Beathard got credit for being "tough enough" to take shots in the chin over and over again but NOBODY talked about how he doesn't feel pressure well, processes slowly like most rookie QBs, and was taking shots in the chin over and over again due to his own deficiencies at feeling pressure and moving around in the pocket. JG on the other hand, feels pressure and slide/adjusts really well.

The 9ers pass blocking magically didn't get better over night. If anything it has gotten worse since JG came in because their best pass blocking O-lineman (Trent Brown) has been out the last two weeks, and a big turd pile who Hawks fans know well (Gary Gilliam) has been starting in his place and pass blocking like crap.

Nobody wants to talk about any of this though, because they insist on it just being about the O-line.

Add even David Carr to that. Nobody talked about how Carr's sack rate followed him to two other teams, while Houston's OL immediately looked better with Matt Schaub behind it. Truth is, Carr was just really hesitant in throwing the ball, which would have been fine had he had Wilson's ability to run.

 

[JimmyG]

He sure as hell would not take Stafford if he saw him behind this oline the last 2-3 years.

That budget oline helps pay for our top 5 D (when they played to full potential), so "his Stafford" has to play against our D to make that a reasonable comparison.

Have you seen Stafford's line this year? Football Outsiders has the Lions ranked as #32 overall in pass blocking (Seattle is 30th). And they are basically last place across the board in their various run-blocking metrics. Like Wilson, Stafford is accounting for a giant percentage of his teams' offensive output this year.

Wrong. They are 21st. You are looking at run blocking. Seattle is better than Detroit (this week) in pass blocking, but over the last 2-3 years overall there is no comparison.

You're right, Football Outsiders has an absolutely horrendous interface/presentation and I misread it. Here are their pass blocking ranks (snipped to show relevant details):


Anyway, I'm not sure what the past few years has to do with anything. People keep saying "anyone else would be futile behind this line", but that's just not true. I am with MontanaHawk, sometimes the long-developing plays and scramble drills are the result of Wilson being Wilson. It's not Bevell, it's not the OC, it's Wilson.

 

[Anthony!]

He sure as hell would not take Stafford if he saw him behind this oline the last 2-3 years.

That budget oline helps pay for our top 5 D (when they played to full potential), so "his Stafford" has to play against our D to make that a reasonable comparison.

Have you seen Stafford's line this year? Football Outsiders has the Lions ranked as #32 overall in pass blocking (Seattle is 30th). And they are basically last place across the board in their various run-blocking metrics. Like Wilson, Stafford is accounting for a giant percentage of his teams' offensive output this year.

Wrong. They are 21st. You are looking at run blocking. Seattle is better than Detroit (this week) in pass blocking, but over the last 2-3 years overall there is no comparison.

You're right, Football Outsiders has an absolutely horrendous interface/presentation and I misread it. Here are their pass blocking ranks (snipped to show relevant details):

If you add in hits and hurries you will find we are close to last

 

[MontanaHawk05]

I would argue it's closer to 50/50. I notice a LOT of plays where Wilson takes off for absolutely no reason.

That's why Duane Brown's epic few-pressures-allowed performance for us thus far hasn't suddenly improved the offense like people were expecting. Call it height, call it receivers not getting loose, call it he just likes being outside the pocket, but the OL was never the primary driver of our problems.

That said, Stafford will never sniff a Super Bowl.

I think that the Oline Russell needs is just one which doesn't let guys get to him in a second and doesn't collapse on all sides. Most of the time Wilson is able to get out of it if just some part collapses and he does have enough time to get away. Imo having a good pass blocking line would be a complete waste on Russell as long as he's able to run around the way he still does.
Good run blocking would be nice though.

Very few route trees require more than 3 seconds to run. The Packers' WR's train to begin their scramble drill 2.8 seconds after the snap. That means that an offensive line's job is done after about 3 seconds, after which the fault is no longer on them.

If you watch Seattle's pass protection over the years armed with that piece of knowledge, you'd be surprised how often Seattle's line actually gets the job done. No, they can't provide Wilson with 7 seconds like Romo's line did. But if the OC, WRs, and QB were doing their job, they wouldn't have to.

The plays where Seattle's line gets immediately punctured are much lesser in quantity. They happen twice or thrice a game. I think the games where they happened the most were against the Calais Campbell Cardinals, and admittedly, those games were nightmares of instant slicing penetration.

We watch a different game. Ifedi by himself allows more than 2 instant pressure whiffs alone. Also it's going to take time for Wilson to get used to brown protecting him. He has been conditioned to expect pressure early and often so in time I expect him to get a little more comfortable and more patient. Also I could be wrong but I think the offense has gotten better since his arrival? They just gave the #1 defense in the league their worst defensive performance.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[JimmyG]

One would think having 6 years of great play, an SB, numerous trips to the playoffs RW would get the benefit of the doubt, but a few here use it as their excuse to rag on him, To them, I say go watch another team. You want to complain when he throw a stupid interception I get it, so am I. However this I saw something open, or shy do this is crap. Argue fact, not perception.

Wilson has the best numbers of his career and yet this is easily the worst season (results-wise) of his tenure here. We are 8-5 and there's a real shot we might not even make the playoffs. The offense is extremely inconsistent. This insistence that the stagnated offense drive is all Bevell's fault and the constant minimizing of Wilson's role in it is getting old. He holds his share fair of the blame for that, and many outside analysts have pointed this out.

 

[SeatownJay]

Drew Magary at Deadspin has an eloquent take-down of this article.

Deadspin Article

 

[Sgt Largent]

He sure as hell would not take Stafford if he saw him behind this oline the last 2-3 years.

That budget oline helps pay for our top 5 D (when they played to full potential), so "his Stafford" has to play against our D to make that a reasonable comparison.

Have you seen Stafford's line this year? Football Outsiders has the Lions ranked as #32 overall in pass blocking (Seattle is 30th). And they are basically last place across the board in their various run-blocking metrics. Like Wilson, Stafford is accounting for a giant percentage of his teams' offensive output this year.

Wrong. They are 21st. You are looking at run blocking. Seattle is better than Detroit (this week) in pass blocking, but over the last 2-3 years overall there is no comparison.

You're right, Football Outsiders has an absolutely horrendous interface/presentation and I misread it. Here are their pass blocking ranks (snipped to show relevant details):


Anyway, I'm not sure what the past few years has to do with anything. People keep saying "anyone else would be futile behind this line", but that's just not true. I am with MontanaHawk, sometimes the long-developing plays and scramble drills are the result of Wilson being Wilson. It's not Bevell, it's not the OC, it's Wilson.

Just as a point, I wouldn't use some form of sack rate to prove something about a guy who's the best in the league at escaping them. Maybe pressure rate or something.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

That was pretty funny. Having an opinion makes it wrong. Got it.
Come on man, I am a massive Russ fan, but you can't just throw it up for grabs in to either double coverage or when I guy is clearly covered. He had an off game, it's rare, but he is human. I just would prefer they check down once in awhile and stop throwing long bombs so often. Unless the guy is open like on the 2 touchdowns later in the game. And I call it a hero ball because that's exactly what I heard Wyman call it. And I must be in the twilight zone, because I've never been accused of "getting on Russ"
EVER :lol:
In fact, more accused of being WAY too much of a Russ apologist. Take a pill Anthony, you are no bigger of a Hawks or Russ fan than I am. :roll:

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Have you seen Stafford's line this year? Football Outsiders has the Lions ranked as #32 overall in pass blocking (Seattle is 30th). And they are basically last place across the board in their various run-blocking metrics. Like Wilson, Stafford is accounting for a giant percentage of his teams' offensive output this year.

Wrong. They are 21st. You are looking at run blocking. Seattle is better than Detroit (this week) in pass blocking, but over the last 2-3 years overall there is no comparison.

You're right, Football Outsiders has an absolutely horrendous interface/presentation and I misread it. Here are their pass blocking ranks (snipped to show relevant details):


Anyway, I'm not sure what the past few years has to do with anything. People keep saying "anyone else would be futile behind this line", but that's just not true. I am with MontanaHawk, sometimes the long-developing plays and scramble drills are the result of Wilson being Wilson. It's not Bevell, it's not the OC, it's Wilson.

Just as a point, I wouldn't use some form of sack rate to prove something about a guy who's the best in the league at escaping them. Maybe pressure rate or something.

Then we'd have to talk about the pressures he creates himself. :stirthepot: ukeface: :yawn:

 

[Anthony!]

Have you seen Stafford's line this year? Football Outsiders has the Lions ranked as #32 overall in pass blocking (Seattle is 30th). And they are basically last place across the board in their various run-blocking metrics. Like Wilson, Stafford is accounting for a giant percentage of his teams' offensive output this year.

Wrong. They are 21st. You are looking at run blocking. Seattle is better than Detroit (this week) in pass blocking, but over the last 2-3 years overall there is no comparison.

You're right, Football Outsiders has an absolutely horrendous interface/presentation and I misread it. Here are their pass blocking ranks (snipped to show relevant details):


Anyway, I'm not sure what the past few years has to do with anything. People keep saying "anyone else would be futile behind this line", but that's just not true. I am with MontanaHawk, sometimes the long-developing plays and scramble drills are the result of Wilson being Wilson. It's not Bevell, it's not the OC, it's Wilson.

Just as a point, I wouldn't use some form of sack rate to prove something about a guy who's the best in the league at escaping them. Maybe pressure rate or something.

The question is and has been answered by numerous experts, that any other QB but Wilson would have twice as many sacks behind this oline in this offense. Rw is and has always been amongst the most hit, pressured and hurried QBs in the league. A lot of those hurries turn into sacks with any other QB.

 

[brimsalabim]

One would think having 6 years of great play, an SB, numerous trips to the playoffs RW would get the benefit of the doubt, but a few here use it as their excuse to rag on him, To them, I say go watch another team. You want to complain when he throw a stupid interception I get it, so am I. However this I saw something open, or shy do this is crap. Argue fact, not perception.

Wilson has the best numbers of his career and yet this is easily the worst season (results-wise) of his tenure here. We are 8-5 and there's a real shot we might not even make the playoffs. The offense is extremely inconsistent. This insistence that the stagnated offense drive is all Bevell's fault and the constant minimizing of Wilson's role in it is getting old. He holds his share fair of the blame for that, and many outside analysts have pointed this out.

You are correct. It is Wilson's fault that he can't figure out how to block four men, run a post pattern, run a wheel route, carry the ball, throw the ball, catch the ball, make 11 guys miss twice each, call the plays, and pop the pop corn all at the same time. The lazy bum hardly ever makes a tackle and his field goal kicking percentage is also pretty low.
Seriously I really really hope that Wilson is traded after this season so fans like your self can finally be happy.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

He's one of the best in the league, plenty of people know that. I spend most of my time sticking up for the guy and/or pointing out how incredible he is. They are a 4-12 team w/out him. But it IS ok to point out when he has an off game. Shoot, Lord Brady played horrific on Monday, happens to the best. Doesn't mean he's not incredible, he just had an off game for HIS STANDARDS.