Benoit on the Double Edged Sword that is Russell Wilson

[Seymour]

He sure as hell would not take Stafford if he saw him behind this oline the last 2-3 years.

That budget oline helps pay for our top 5 D (when they played to full potential), so "his Stafford" has to play against our D to make that a reasonable comparison.

Have you seen Stafford's line this year? Football Outsiders has the Lions ranked as #32 overall in pass blocking (Seattle is 30th). And they are basically last place across the board in their various run-blocking metrics. Like Wilson, Stafford is accounting for a giant percentage of his teams' offensive output this year.

Wrong. They are 21st. You are looking at run blocking. Seattle is better than Detroit (this week) in pass blocking, but over the last 2-3 years overall there is no comparison.

You're right, Football Outsiders has an absolutely horrendous interface/presentation and I misread it. Here are their pass blocking ranks (snipped to show relevant details):


Anyway, I'm not sure what the past few years has to do with anything. People keep saying "anyone else would be futile behind this line", but that's just not true. I am with MontanaHawk, sometimes the long-developing plays and scramble drills are the result of Wilson being Wilson. It's not Bevell, it's not the OC, it's Wilson.

Ask David Carr what can happen.

It obviously has an effect on the QB over time. You can see signs of this with Wilson, but overall I think he's come through it OK considering the circumstances he's been put in with Cable and his "budget body guards".

 

[MontanaHawk05]

One would think having 6 years of great play, an SB, numerous trips to the playoffs RW would get the benefit of the doubt, but a few here use it as their excuse to rag on him, To them, I say go watch another team. You want to complain when he throw a stupid interception I get it, so am I. However this I saw something open, or shy do this is crap. Argue fact, not perception.

Wilson has the best numbers of his career and yet this is easily the worst season (results-wise) of his tenure here. We are 8-5 and there's a real shot we might not even make the playoffs. The offense is extremely inconsistent. This insistence that the stagnated offense drive is all Bevell's fault and the constant minimizing of Wilson's role in it is getting old. He holds his share fair of the blame for that, and many outside analysts have pointed this out.

You are correct. It is Wilson's fault that he can't figure out how to block four men, run a post pattern, run a wheel route, carry the ball, throw the ball, catch the ball, make 11 guys miss twice each, call the plays, and pop the pop corn all at the same time. The lazy bum hardly ever makes a tackle and his field goal kicking percentage is also pretty low.
Seriously I really really hope that Wilson is traded after this season so fans like your self can finally be happy.

Oh, stop overreacting. Nobody said he's perfect. They just said Wilson shares part of the blame.

 

[Sgt Largent]

Wrong. They are 21st. You are looking at run blocking. Seattle is better than Detroit (this week) in pass blocking, but over the last 2-3 years overall there is no comparison.

You're right, Football Outsiders has an absolutely horrendous interface/presentation and I misread it. Here are their pass blocking ranks (snipped to show relevant details):


Anyway, I'm not sure what the past few years has to do with anything. People keep saying "anyone else would be futile behind this line", but that's just not true. I am with MontanaHawk, sometimes the long-developing plays and scramble drills are the result of Wilson being Wilson. It's not Bevell, it's not the OC, it's Wilson.

Just as a point, I wouldn't use some form of sack rate to prove something about a guy who's the best in the league at escaping them. Maybe pressure rate or something.

Then we'd have to talk about the pressures he creates himself. :stirthepot: ukeface: :yawn:

Sounds fair. What else would be fair would be to include Willies rushing stats, but invariably, Russ is only compared to other QB's in passing stats, especially from naysayer types (the Priscos of the world). The reason? Because very few to none play QB the way Russ does and it hurts their sensibilities.

I'm still waiting for the proof that rushing yards/TDs somehow count for less than passing yds when derived from a QB. You are judging a QB, not a PB (Passerback).

None of the above refers to your opinions specifically Montana (unless the shoe fits), just thought it would be a good place to put my thoughts on it.

 

[Anthony!]

lets put an end to this

83% of total offensive yards #1 in NFL, NFL Post SB record
97% of total offensive TDs #1 in NFL, NFL Post SB record
no run game
no #1 wr
questionable oline
questionable play calling

No Qb is doing more with less. enough said

 

[SoulfishHawk]

And who is saying that he hasn't done more with less? Anyone with eyes can see he has done more w/less. Relax and breathe man. It's gonna' be ok.

 

[Uncle Si]

The question is and has been answered by numerous experts, that any other QB but Wilson would have twice as many sacks behind this oline in this offense. A lot of those hurries turn into sacks with any other QB.

What experts?

Where is the statistical basis for this claim?

Would Aaron Rodgers have taken more sacks? Case Keenum? Dak Prescott? Ben Rothlisberger? (name another QB who is good at avoiding pressure and making plays out of the pocket)

Wilson is a great QB. He's not the only one under pressure making plays

 

[MontanaHawk05]

You're right, Football Outsiders has an absolutely horrendous interface/presentation and I misread it. Here are their pass blocking ranks (snipped to show relevant details):


Anyway, I'm not sure what the past few years has to do with anything. People keep saying "anyone else would be futile behind this line", but that's just not true. I am with MontanaHawk, sometimes the long-developing plays and scramble drills are the result of Wilson being Wilson. It's not Bevell, it's not the OC, it's Wilson.

Just as a point, I wouldn't use some form of sack rate to prove something about a guy who's the best in the league at escaping them. Maybe pressure rate or something.

Then we'd have to talk about the pressures he creates himself. :stirthepot: ukeface: :yawn:

Sounds fair. What else would be fair would be to include Willies rushing stats, but invariably, Russ is only compared to other QB's in passing stats, especially from naysayer types (the Priscos of the world). The reason? Because very few to none play QB the way Russ does and it hurts their sensibilities.

I'm still waiting for the proof that rushing yards/TDs somehow count for less than passing yds when derived from a QB. You are judging a QB, not a PB (Passerback).

None of the above refers to your opinions specifically Montana (unless the shoe fits), just thought it would be a good place to put my thoughts on it.

There are a couple good reasons why it's not ideal for Wilson to play the way he does.

One is that rushing exposes Wilson to injury. Now Wilson is built like a muscle hamster, can withstand a lot of tackles, and knows how and when to slide, so if any QB can get away with his running, it's Wilson. But that doesn't change the fact that it only takes one dirty hit from an Aqib Talib or a Vontaze Burfict (or, apropos, a Ndamukong Suh) to cause serious injury.

Second has to do with his scrambling BEHIND the line. Someone alluded earlier in this thread to the fact that Wilson might well be running for no reason because he knows it wears down the DL and gives him more opportunities for big plays in the 4th quarter. I've been thinking this for a while and it's probably true. BUT, Wilson's scrambling also carries a downside: it splits the field in half for him. Once he's rolled out to his left, he's only got the left side of the field to throw to. He'd be dumb to try a throw all the way across to the right, even if Jimmy Graham is wide open out there. That's why all these calls for "MOAR ROLLOUTZ!!!!11!1!" are actually likely to fall on deaf ears. Rollouts are actually lower percentage plays than some.

So while Wilson is a great QB, I don't think he's hit his ceiling - that would take a better OC than 6-out-of-10 Bevell - and I think it's fair to say that his play style comes with legitimate tradeoffs.

 

[Sgt Largent]

Now, with all my "sticking up for the little guy" talk, I do think Wilson could improve his consistency.

1) He occasionally stays on the back foot when he doesn't have to (High balls)
2) He occasionally puts too much under the ball (on deep passes) causing some underthrows (closely related to 1 above).
3) His natural escape mechanism (retreating backwards) makes for a dead spot (in time) for finding guys that may come open during his escape routine, causing us to wonder why he threw it to so late, he was clearly open earlier.
4) ...and a myriad more things I could type about (ANY) QB.
5) I'd love to see him steal a page from Brees checkdown book, he could get better at that.

 

[Sgt Largent]

...
One is that rushing exposes Wilson to injury. Now Wilson is built like a muscle hamster, can withstand a lot of tackles, and knows how and when to slide, so if any QB can get away with his running, it's Wilson. But that doesn't change the fact that it only takes one dirty hit from an Aqib Talib or a Vontaze Burfict (or, apropos, a Ndamukong Suh) to cause serious injury...

Decent points Montana, but I picked this one out because it's wagging the dog.

"Well, My Opal is better than your Ferrari because you could blow your engine at any moment." Your argument above is exactly what the naysayers use to discredit Wilsons contribution with his legs. Let's take it at face value and say it is detrimental to team success in the long run (some future injury). Those yards still count. One of the biggest "run around" guys ever holds the NFL record for most consecutive starts.

We sit here and watch QBs get smoked in the pocket every week. Those hits are almost ALWAYS nastier than the hits Russ takes beyond the line of scrimmage due to the way he does it.

 

[StoneCold]

Now, with all my "sticking up for the little guy" talk, I do think Wilson could improve his consistency.

1) He occasionally stays on the back foot when he doesn't have to (High balls)
2) He occasionally puts too much under the ball (on deep passes) causing some underthrows (closely related to 1 above).
3) His natural escape mechanism (retreating backwards) makes for a dead spot (in time) for finding guys that may come open during his escape routine, causing us to wonder why he threw it to so late, he was clearly open earlier.
4) ...and a myriad more things I could type about (ANY) QB.
5) I'd love to see him steal a page from Brees checkdown book, he could get better at that.

I chalk 5 up to Bevell not providing it.

 

[Seymour]

lets put an end to this

83% of total offensive yards #1 in NFL, NFL Post SB record
97% of total offensive TDs #1 in NFL, NFL Post SB record
no run game
no #1 wr
questionable oline
questionable play calling

No Qb is doing more with less. enough said

Did you say more Brotato chip?

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Yeah, he gets Bevellriffic way too often w/the play calling.

 

[IrishNW]

He sure as hell would not take Stafford if he saw him behind this oline the last 2-3 years.

That budget oline helps pay for our top 5 D (when they played to full potential), so "his Stafford" has to play against our D to make that a reasonable comparison.

Very good point.

I honesty can't think of a single QB that could perform as good, or better, than Wilson behind the current OL (prior to them getting it together the last few weeks).

brady, manning or rodgers would do just fine. They actually use quick throws to mitigate the pass rush and make their o-line look better.

A double edged sword is a perfect description of what RW is right now. I think Kurt Warner once said that he hopes Wilson learns to not make it so hard on himself.

My only question is, will Wilson be-able to correct this problem? or do we need a guru offensive coordinator that can help mitigate this. I personally and I think alot of people want to see a change at coordinator. Maybe Bevel hasn't actually been that bad (personally i think he sucks) but its time for some new blood.

ukeface: no they would not because you are assuming that our OC would let them continue the quick passing, If you paid attention to the last game we started out with quick passing and for some reason, our OC went away from it, As to the rest your opinion which factually is wrong but your opinion

you would argue the sky isn't blue.

if my opinion is factually wrong then show me the facts that prove that....oh wait

 

[Seymour]

...
One is that rushing exposes Wilson to injury. Now Wilson is built like a muscle hamster, can withstand a lot of tackles, and knows how and when to slide, so if any QB can get away with his running, it's Wilson. But that doesn't change the fact that it only takes one dirty hit from an Aqib Talib or a Vontaze Burfict (or, apropos, a Ndamukong Suh) to cause serious injury...

Decent points Montana, but I picked this one out because it's wagging the dog.

"Well, My Opal is better than your Ferrari because you could blow your engine at any moment." Your argument above is exactly what the naysayers use to discredit Wilsons contribution with his legs. Let's take it at face value and say it is detrimental to team success in the long run (some future injury). Those yards still count. One of the biggest "run around" guys ever holds the NFL record for most consecutive starts.

We sit here and watch QBs get smoked in the pocket every week. Those hits are almost ALWAYS nastier than the hits Russ takes beyond the line of scrimmage due to the way he does it.

Exactly. He is getting OUT of harms way. Who is the last man standing from class of 2012??

 

[SoulfishHawk]

And look how much the Skins gave up for RGKnee/RG3-13, wow.

 

[JimmyG]

lets put an end to this

83% of total offensive yards #1 in NFL, NFL Post SB record
97% of total offensive TDs #1 in NFL, NFL Post SB record
no run game
no #1 wr
questionable oline
questionable play calling

No Qb is doing more with less. enough said

Okay, I'll try.

Wilson accounts for 85.2% of his team's offensive yardage output. Stafford accounts for 84.2% of his team's offensive yardage output.

Wilson has bad pass blocking (#16 ranked by Football Outsiders). Stafford has worse pass blocking (#21 by FO).

Wilson's offensive line ranks #14 in power running, and #30 in FO "Stuffed Rank". Stafford's offensive line ranks #32 in power running and #32 in stuffed rank.

Lions not named "Stafford" have rushed for 902 yards. Collectively, they average 3.3 yards per carry. Seahawks not named "Wilson" have rushed for 892 yards. Collectively, they average 3.4 yards per carry.

The Seahawks have 8 wins. The score 24.2 points per game (11th) and give up 19.4 points per game (8th). The Lions have 7 wins. They score 26.0 points per game (5th) and give up 25.3 poinst per game (28th).

Stafford has a 97.9 rating. He has thrown 23 TD and has 9 INT. Wilson has a 95.5 rating. He has thrown 29 TD and has 11 INT; he has also added 3 rush TD.

Marvin Jones is not a #1 receiver. Golden Tate is not a #1 receiver. Eric Ebron is a giant bust. I would take Seattle's receivers over Detroit's receivers. What would the TD counts look like if Stafford had Jimmy Graham (9 TD total, most in Red Zone), and Wilson had Eric Ebron (2 TD total)?

Questionable play calling doesn't count. That is a cop-out excuse that every fan uses.

Do I think Stafford has been as good as Wilson? No, I don't. Do I think Wilson has been in his own stratosphere? No, I don't. Do I think Wilson is the most electrifying quarterback in the league? Yes.

Wilson has been a walking highlight reel, but I don't think his net production is as transcendent as people think. It reminds me of baseball a bit. Sort of how a flashy, 100 MPH fastball looks amazing... but sometimes a boring 92 MPH two-seamer with a little movement can yield similar results. "Sandlot football" is like a 100 MPH fastball -- it works, but it's not the only way.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Love Stafford, but not in the clutch. He has a lot of 4th quarter comebacks etc. but until I see it in the playoffs, not as impressed.

 

[JimmyG]

Love Stafford, but not in the clutch. He has a lot of 4th quarter comebacks etc. but until I see it in the playoffs, not as impressed.

I'm not in love with Stafford either, but he is having a really good year (with a relatively weak supporting cast). Just pointing out that there's "more than one way to skin a cat".

 

[SoulfishHawk]

He's one tough dude too

 

[907Hawk]

Well, as much as I love Russ, the hero balls in to coverage need to be cut way back. No reason they can't just take what the D gives them and check down to guys who are open. I get it that they have made some great plays on long passes, but he needs to be more selective about it imo.

First off the "hero Ball" is crap. That is not what the play is. 2nd if you listened to the announcers last game you would have heard them say numerous times there were not short or intermediate routes being run, they were all go routes, so what would you have him do when the only option he has is long routes. Now that is not always the case, however, unless you are Rw seeing what he sees, form his angle you really have no clue what is happening all you know is hey he is open short why throw long, there may be a legit reason for it. One would think having 6 years of great play, an SB, numerous trips to the playoffs RW would get the benefit of the doubt, but a few here use it as their excuse to rag on him, To them, I say go watch another team. You want to complain when he throw a stupid interception I get it, so am I. However this I saw something open, or shy do this is crap. Argue fact, not perception.

Ummm....throw it away? :roll: Pretty much anything but throw into double coverage against top pass defenders.

Soulfish is correct. We both stick up for Russell plenty, and that was a hero ball shot by definition right there.

"Throw it away" If Wilson was asked he would agree the duck into double coverage was a bad choice.