Benoit on the Double Edged Sword that is Russell Wilson

[SoulfishHawk]

And his ridiculous ability to make the right choices in the 4th quarter and overtime. Better than most in football.

 

[original poster]

The genius behind Wilson's many rollouts are that they completely wear down defensive lines, hence his many 4th quarter comebacks.... Notice how little gas opposing DLs seem to have after chasing this guy around for three quarters....

You only have to look at the Eagles DL a couple of weeks ago to see how true this is.

 

[Popeyejones]

The genius behind Wilson's many rollouts are that they completely wear down defensive lines, hence his many 4th quarter comebacks.... Notice how little gas opposing DLs seem to have after chasing this guy around for three quarters....

I don't know if he's wearing them down*, but he's definitely in their heads a little bit. He has shaken so many people out of their shoes that guys get a little conservative when they have a path to him and break down a little too early, which ends up giving him the extra room that's needed to shake 'em out of their shoes again. :lol:

As a result, once he's escaping or out of the pocket you see these world class athletes getting really conservative in the way they go after him, and essentially sowing the seeds for their own destruction.

It why you only ever see him really getting blown up while on the move when we does that ridiculous 360 spin from above the pocket and runs blindly right into someone.




* With the way people train these days I don't really buy that NFL players wear down throughout a game anymore -- they definitely wear down over the course of the year due to multiple injuries, but it's not a stamina issue, IMO.

 

[Popeyejones]

...And also worth saying:

While I basically agree with Benoit's take and think it's sensible and level-headed, worth repeating that the things about Wilson's game that makes it this way aren't life sentences.

I've been waiting for him to develop in a couple of the referenced areas for a few years now (and been posting about it for a few years now), but these are skills that some guys develop super late in their careers.

It's kind of bizarre in that finding space in the pocket and manipulating the rush in the pocket might be the ONLY skill across all NFL positions that you see guys develop as late as their early 30s. Save for QBs and this one thing once you hit your early 30s guys are either regressing our holding steady. Not this though.

Ben Roethlisberger was this way, and it's what caused his jump in performance three or four years ago. Tom Brady started at a higher point than Ben on this but he has been this way also. Both of 'em actually improved their games in their early 30s by developing in this one area. It ABSOLUTELY can be done, and can be done late, unlike practically everything else.

 

[Seymour]

He sure as hell would not take Stafford if he saw him behind this oline the last 2-3 years.

That budget oline helps pay for our top 5 D (when they played to full potential), so "his Stafford" has to play against our D to make that a reasonable comparison.

Very good point.

I honesty can't think of a single QB that could perform as good, or better, than Wilson behind the current OL (prior to them getting it together the last few weeks).

brady, manning or rodgers would do just fine. They actually use quick throws to mitigate the pass rush and make their o-line look better.

A double edged sword is a perfect description of what RW is right now. I think Kurt Warner once said that he hopes Wilson learns to not make it so hard on himself.

My only question is, will Wilson be-able to correct this problem? or do we need a guru offensive coordinator that can help mitigate this. I personally and I think alot of people want to see a change at coordinator. Maybe Bevel hasn't actually been that bad (personally i think he sucks) but its time for some new blood.

No way in hell on that. Plus our oline comes with our o- coordinator. Go watch the tape of Brady and how "just fine" he did Monday against the mighty Dolphins while under mass pressure. He looked like dog poop and had one of his worst games of his career.

 

[Popeyejones]

No way in hell on that. Plus our oline comes with our o- coordinator.

IMO people DRAMATICALLY underestimate the effect of a QB on perceptions of offensive lines and their effectiveness pass blocking.

When Manning was on the Colts everyone thought he benefited from an O-line that pass blocked really well, and that he would be done in by a Broncos O-line that didn't.

Then he moved and everyone talked about how the Colts O-line (the same players!) were disasters in pass blocking, and the Broncos "became" one of the best pass blocking O-lines in football.

It's the same deal with the Saints, who supposedly always have an amazing O-line with great pass blockers, but as soon as those guys sign big money FA contracts with other teams every single one of them magically flames out.

Even this year it's the same deal with the 9ers. While Beathard was starting everyone talked about how the O-line was a total disaster, and since JG has been starting these last two games people are now talking about how the O-line has magically done a good job in pass-pro of protecting him.

This is, of course, absolute and total nonsense. Beathard got credit for being "tough enough" to take shots in the chin over and over again but NOBODY talked about how he doesn't feel pressure well, processes slowly like most rookie QBs, and was taking shots in the chin over and over again due to his own deficiencies at feeling pressure and moving around in the pocket. JG on the other hand, feels pressure and slide/adjusts really well.

The 9ers pass blocking magically didn't get better over night. If anything it has gotten worse since JG came in because their best pass blocking O-lineman (Trent Brown) has been out the last two weeks, and a big turd pile who Hawks fans know well (Gary Gilliam) has been starting in his place and pass blocking like crap.

Nobody wants to talk about any of this though, because they insist on it just being about the O-line.

 

[FidelisHawk]

I like how the preconceived notion that Wilson is too short to play in the NFL always follows the the explanation why he’ll never be a great QB.

Draft day, some of the greatest NCAA stats, too short, will be a perennial backup, wasted pick.

Starting QB, too short, running QB, won’t last five years in the league.

Superbowl winning QB, too short, game manager, would be nothing without the defense or Marshawn, isn’t able to carry a team.

MVP candidate, too short, plays sandlot football, will never be consistent.

The only thing Russell can not continually prove his doubters wrong about is, in fact, he is short.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

The obsession with how he looks and how he plays is such a tired heap of crap. At his current rate, he could end up in the Hall of Fame.

 

[Popeyejones]

I like how the preconceived notion that Wilson is too short to play in the NFL always follows the the explanation why he’ll never be a great QB.

Benoit doesn't do this, though. He actually argues the opposite saying that Wilson is a very deserving MVP candidate. :lol:

To be totally honest, save for Seahawks fans still smarting over Wilson falling to them in the draft because of his height*, I literally haven't seen or heard anyone argue that Wilson can't be a great QB because of his height for nearly a half decade now.

The way Benoit talks about is actually pretty perceptive, IMO, pointing out why being shorter isn't *ideal* for a QB, but how Brees and Wilson BOTH don't let it hurt their game or prevent them from being great QBs, albeit in VERY different ways:

Seahawks offensive coordinator Darrell Bevell has one of the hardest jobs in football. He doesn’t know where his guy with the ball will be. And he can’t ask Wilson to change. Wilson, the most dynamic sandlot quarterback of his generation, is merely playing the hand he was dealt. God made him 5' 11". People like to say that doesn’t matter (Wilson proves his doubters wrong!). It does matter. A 5' 11" man cannot always see over 6' 5" offensive linemen or 6' 3" defensive linemen with outstretched arms. With Wilson, it’s evident every week on film. And so the 5' 11" man must move around and create new lines of vision. Drew Brees, at 6-foot, has mastered this in New Orleans. He does it from the pocket. Wilson, with tremendous athleticism and an uncanny ability to make strong throws on the move (right or left), does it by running around. So the difference is, with Brees a coach can draw plays the same way he would for a traditional QB. Brees’s platform and launching point change by a matter of inches and feet. Wilson’s change by a matter of yards. Many, many yards.

*This has always been kinda funny to me. You guys should be OVER THE MOON Wilson is short. If he was taller he probably would have gone in the first, and with the money the Hawks had just given Flynn there's no way they would have taken a QB in the first. Rather than smarting over Wilson falling due to his height and being vengeful about it, Wilson's height changed the course of the Seahawks and their trajectory in AWESOME ways for Hawks fans. TL;DR -- if Wilson was taller you guys probably wouldn't have the best QB the Hawks have ever had.

 

[StoneCold]

No way in hell on that. Plus our oline comes with our o- coordinator.

IMO people DRAMATICALLY underestimate the effect of a QB on perceptions of offensive lines and their effectiveness pass blocking.

When Manning was on the Colts everyone thought he benefited from an O-line that pass blocked really well, and that he would be done in by a Broncos O-line that didn't.

Then he moved and everyone talked about how the Colts O-line (the same players!) were disasters in pass blocking, and the Broncos "became" one of the best pass blocking O-lines in football.

It's the same deal with the Saints, who supposedly always have an amazing O-line with great pass blockers, but as soon as those guys sign big money FA contracts with other teams every single one of them magically flames out.

Even this year it's the same deal with the 9ers. While Beathard was starting everyone talked about how the O-line was a total disaster, and since JG has been starting these last two games people are now talking about how the O-line has magically done a good job in pass-pro of protecting him.

This is, of course, absolute and total nonsense. Beathard got credit for being "tough enough" to take shots in the chin over and over again but NOBODY talked about how he doesn't feel pressure well, processes slowly like most rookie QBs, and was taking shots in the chin over and over again due to his own deficiencies at feeling pressure and moving around in the pocket. JG on the other hand, feels pressure and slide/adjusts really well.

The 9ers pass blocking magically didn't get better over night. If anything it has gotten worse since JG came in because their best pass blocking O-lineman (Trent Brown) has been out the last two weeks, and a big turd pile who Hawks fans know well (Gary Gilliam) has been starting in his place and pass blocking like crap.

Nobody wants to talk about any of this though, because they insist on it just being about the O-line.

It's unfortunate you're not a Hawk fan as I have to take what you say with a grain of Niner Whiner. That said you make a lot of sense with regard to the performance of Olinemen with different QB's. Russell seems to sense pressure almost too well, causing him to bail early, and while he has more than the spin out move, it is his main staple. A problem with the spin out that I can see is Dlinemen are looking at him, they see the spin and react. Olinemen have their back to RW and when they feel their guy suddenly swerve to the right, they tend to grab, or the hold they have, that's inside the pads, gets exposed as they don't release before the tell tale jersey tug is evident to the refs.

While I don't have stats, it's my feeling that our pocket either collapses sooner than other and even when it doesn't it seems smaller. Smaller than what I see Goff, or Wentz or even Bortles. Perhaps thats due to our Oline or our Dline isn't producing the pressure the opponents are. It's so intertwined with individual matchups it would be hard to assess even with the all-22's. Maybe it just a fan perception cause it's my guy they're bearing down on.

Appreciate your posts.

 

[Ozzy]

Not to say he never does, but he mostly does it to escape pressure. Otherwise, he does try to remain within the confines of the offense

I would argue it's closer to 50/50. I notice a LOT of plays where Wilson takes off for absolutely no reason.

That's why Duane Brown's epic few-pressures-allowed performance for us thus far hasn't suddenly improved the offense like people were expecting. Call it height, call it receivers not getting loose, call it he just likes being outside the pocket, but the OL was never the primary driver of our problems.

That said, Stafford will never sniff a Super Bowl.

I think that the Oline Russell needs is just one which doesn't let guys get to him in a second and doesn't collapse on all sides. Most of the time Wilson is able to get out of it if just some part collapses and he does have enough time to get away. Imo having a good pass blocking line would be a complete waste on Russell as long as he's able to run around the way he still does.
Good run blocking would be nice though.

Very few route trees require more than 3 seconds to run. The Packers' WR's train to begin their scramble drill 2.8 seconds after the snap. That means that an offensive line's job is done after about 3 seconds, after which the fault is no longer on them.

If you watch Seattle's pass protection over the years armed with that piece of knowledge, you'd be surprised how often Seattle's line actually gets the job done. No, they can't provide Wilson with 7 seconds like Romo's line did. But if the OC, WRs, and QB were doing their job, they wouldn't have to.

The plays where Seattle's line gets immediately punctured are much lesser in quantity. They happen twice or thrice a game. I think the games where they happened the most were against the Calais Campbell Cardinals, and admittedly, those games were nightmares of instant slicing penetration.

We watch a different game. Ifedi by himself allows more than 2 instant pressure whiffs alone. Also it's going to take time for Wilson to get used to brown protecting him. He has been conditioned to expect pressure early and often so in time I expect him to get a little more comfortable and more patient. Also I could be wrong but I think the offense has gotten better since his arrival? They just gave the #1 defense in the league their worst defensive performance.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[Popeyejones]

^^^ Thanks man.

I think about it like this:

1) There's no way around the fact that the Hawks O-line is bad. It just is.

2) Through his ability Wilson makes the Hawks offense overall look better than it is. That's true of all great QBs.

3) Through his play-style Wilson makes the Hawks O-line look worse than it actually is, even though it's bad to begin with.

They seem to complicate and contradict each other, but all three of those things can be true.

 

[Ozzy]

I also don't buy that Wilson makes Bevell's job harder. It's the other way around if you ask me.

I think what Benoit gets right is that on any given play it can be one or the other.

Long story short, I basically agree with Benoit that Wilson is both an MVP candidate, and a guy who, on a play-by-play basis, many OCs wouldn't prefer over Stafford. (see below for why I think he's picking Stafford)

The great Scot Mccloughan said as much about a month ago, saying Wilson is an incredibly special QB, but not a guy you want dropping back to pass 30 times a game.

To be totally honest, Wilson is the most high-variance QB I've ever seen in the NFL, and that's because of his weird mix of amazing talent and his style of play. It's why he goes through stretches (be it halves, or across strings of games) where he looks like the best QB in the history of the NFL (which is also reflected in stats), and stretches where he looks like a bottom quarter starting QB (which is also reflected in stats).

Basically, on any given play Wilson can bail out everyone around him and spin straw into gold, or make life hell for everyone around him and spin gold into straw. Because he's so talented you get more of the former than the latter (which is what makes him a legitimate MVP candidate), but when you watch the All-22 (which I do for probably only 3 or 4 Hawks games a year) he can also be really maddening. He's legitimately harder to pass block for than any QB at the NFL level I've ever seen.

Long story short, Benoit is just saying what a ton of people have been saying for years. Dude's a legit MVP candidate, but if you've ever been an OC or O-line coach, he's also maddening.



ON STAFFORD: I think Benoit is picking Stafford because it's a little trollish to do so, but also sneakily kinda right too. Stafford has been much better than his reputation as a slightly above average QB for a couple years now, but unless you're a Lions fan there's no reason you would have noticed. Stafford has also kept the Lions offense functional and on schedule over the years despite playing with the worst run game in the NFL year in and year out (it's been 64 games since they've had a 100 yard rusher in a game -- this is a real stat [emoji38]), and really middling offensive weapons around him since Johnson retired (I love Tate, but he's no Baldwin -- their best pass catching threat is a solid #2 WR who is surrounded by nobody else).

Stone you're 100% and Benoit is being contrarian for the sake of it. Shocked people are taking him seriously. I'll say it again....There isn't a team in the league who would take Stafford over Wilson. Not one.

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[Seymour]

Screw all that. Like I said, watch the tape of Brady's Monday night bed wetting while under heavy pressure.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

And the fact that an average at best QB didn't sacked once the entire game says a lot.

 

[Uncle Si]

Deadspin has a wonderful article on calling out Benoit for contradicting himself with a ridiculous amount of comfort or wants us to believe this absurd contradiction is worthy of any attention, let alone consternation.

Some quotes (article has "F" bomb in it so not linking here.. Drew Magary, author of article quotes in italics)

"Never mind that Seattle has had legendary offensive line problems for years, and that their rushing attack has been horrifically inconsistent ever since Marshawn left, and that they skimp on wideouts in ways that would make the 2006 New England Patriots go bug-eyed. No, no—let’s blame the consistently best player on that offense.

...and yet, he is a legitimate MVP candidate. A real paradox.

Indeed. How do we reconcile the paradox of Russell Wilson being great with your (mod edit) imaginary slights against him? Truly, it is the riddle of our times."

"To answer Peter’s question: I’m putting Stafford over Wilson—and it’s a no-brainer.
But I get what Peter is saying.

No, you don’t. What Peter was saying is that you are wrong! He posed a rhetorical question to you and you elected to actually answer it with DURRRRRR I LIKES THE TEXAS BOY!"

"Another way to view the question, and the way offensive coaches ponder this sort of thing, is: If you’re building an offense, which QB do you want?

Russell Wilson.

For me, it’s Stafford. No question. But here’s the tricky part:

If I’m running a defense and I get to choose between facing Stafford or facing Wilson, I’d choose to face Stafford.

Oh, so Russell Wilson is the better quarterback to have. Thanks. Glad you’ve wasted our time.

 

[Popeyejones]

Stone you're 100% and Benoit is being contrarian for the sake of it. Shocked people are taking him seriously. I'll say it again....There isn't a team in the league who would take Stafford over Wilson. Not one.

Wouldn't or shouldn't?

I think you're underestimating how beholden many OCs/offensive head coaches are to their systems.

Guys like Reid, Pederson, Zimmer, McVay, Mularkey, Jackson, Linehan, and Gruden would take Wilson over Stafford in less than a heartbeat.

Guys like Haley, McDaniels, Whisenhunt, Cooter, and (sadly) Shanahan would think about it a lot more than I think you suspect (and maybe they even should), and some of them would go with Stafford.

Shanahan is actually a good example, IMO. He lit the league on fire with RGIII in his rookie year, but had to give up his system in order to do it, and effectively ran RGIII out of town because Cousins was a better system fit for him, and because he'd rather RGIII fail in is system than make long-term changes to his system.

Likewise, this year in the draft Beathard was the only QB he was interested in because Beathard best fit his system, so he took him despite the fact that beyond fitting his system he's just an awful, awful QB.

His senior year at Iowa while playing a full seasn Beathard completed 56% of his passes for all of 1900 yards, 17 TDs and 10 INTs, but Shanahan took him in the 3rd round because he fit the system.

NFL fans don't like to think about it, but system fit is huge. Sean Payton is a great offensive mind, and Joe Montana is an all-time great QB, but Montana would be a below average QB in Sean Payton's system.

Coaches aren't NEARLY as flexible as people want them to be.

 

[JimmyG]

He sure as hell would not take Stafford if he saw him behind this oline the last 2-3 years.

That budget oline helps pay for our top 5 D (when they played to full potential), so "his Stafford" has to play against our D to make that a reasonable comparison.

Have you seen Stafford's line this year? Football Outsiders has the Lions ranked as #32 overall in pass blocking (Seattle is 30th). And they are basically last place across the board in their various run-blocking metrics. Like Wilson, Stafford is accounting for a giant percentage of his teams' offensive output this year.

 

[Seymour]

He sure as hell would not take Stafford if he saw him behind this oline the last 2-3 years.

That budget oline helps pay for our top 5 D (when they played to full potential), so "his Stafford" has to play against our D to make that a reasonable comparison.

Have you seen Stafford's line this year? Football Outsiders has the Lions ranked as #32 overall in pass blocking (Seattle is 30th). And they are basically last place across the board in their various run-blocking metrics. Like Wilson, Stafford is accounting for a giant percentage of his teams' offensive output this year.

Wrong. They are 21st. You are looking at run blocking. Seattle is better than Detroit (this week) in pass blocking, but over the last 2-3 years overall there is no comparison.

 

[Anthony!]

He sure as hell would not take Stafford if he saw him behind this oline the last 2-3 years.

That budget oline helps pay for our top 5 D (when they played to full potential), so "his Stafford" has to play against our D to make that a reasonable comparison.

Very good point.

I honesty can't think of a single QB that could perform as good, or better, than Wilson behind the current OL (prior to them getting it together the last few weeks).

brady, manning or rodgers would do just fine. They actually use quick throws to mitigate the pass rush and make their o-line look better.

A double edged sword is a perfect description of what RW is right now. I think Kurt Warner once said that he hopes Wilson learns to not make it so hard on himself.

My only question is, will Wilson be-able to correct this problem? or do we need a guru offensive coordinator that can help mitigate this. I personally and I think alot of people want to see a change at coordinator. Maybe Bevel hasn't actually been that bad (personally i think he sucks) but its time for some new blood.

ukeface: no they would not because you are assuming that our OC would let them continue the quick passing, If you paid attention to the last game we started out with quick passing and for some reason, our OC went away from it, As to the rest your opinion which factually is wrong but your opinion