Fumble or Incomplete Pass Question

[bestfightstory]

It has nothing to do with the line of scrimmage, but everything to do with the location of the passer. If the pass or toss is dropped and the ball lands behind the passers location when the ball was thrown, it's a fumble.

Umm, that is absolutely and positively not true. Trust me.

Incorrect. Blitzfan is correct. The los is not relevant. You are not to be trusted.

 

[CANHawk]

When DangeRuss flipped that little shovel pass to Beast, it got me to thinking... I know sometimes when passes are not caught, it's ruled incomplete. But I also know there are cases where it's ruled a fumble and the ball is live.

Can somebody tell me what the rule is? I think it has something to do with a pass behind the LOS, or maybe a pass behind the quarterback.

Thanks in advance.

I get what you're getting at. You're thinking about the "unconventional" passing motion that was involved. ie. it's not the typical overhand forward pass we all know and recognize. I think it comes back to whether or not it was intentional. That shovel pass clearly was an intentional forward pass, as opposed to a ball that might come flying out of the QB's hand as he gets hit. The latter would be a fumble.

But it all comes down to being a judgement call, so who the hell knows how it might get called from week to week and from ref to ref. Officiating is at an all time low lately. Sure is a good thing they knee-jerked and signed these bunch of clowns to a long term contract last year after that replacement ref made that one (correct) call...

 

[Blitzfan]

It has nothing to do with the line of scrimmage, but everything to do with the location of the passer. If the pass or toss is dropped and the ball lands behind the passers location when the ball was thrown, it's a fumble.

I don't know about that. The rule as I understand it is like 40oz explained.

Umm, that is absolutely and positively not true. Trust me.

The OP wanted to know when a dropped pass could be considered a fumble. I stated it had nothing to do with the line of scrimmage and it does not. Think about a screen pass. Most screen pass are thrown to a back that is positioned behind the line of scrimmage, yet when the pass is dropped it's not considered a fumble even though it is a pass the lands behind the line of scrimmage. The reason is because the passer is still throwing the ball forward. When they look at whether a pass might or might not be a fumble, it is always depends on where the ball landed in relation to where the passer threw it.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

This might be the only forum where it takes 21 responses to answer a simple question.

Forward Pass:
- Behind the line of scrimmage
- QB arm has to be coming forward, going backward is a fumble
- Underhand or overhand, or sidearm, or through the legs, or behind the back, or ballet twirl and throw

Live Fumble:
- Anywhere on the field, line of scrimmage doesn't matter
- backwards pass/hand off

 

[mikeak]

I love RW's presser after the game about this play. He said he went through his 1-4 reads and none were open so he went for Lynch on a flip, double play style! One of my favorite plays of the year so far, just so improvised and clutch! Then Lynch with the finger roll! LOL, three sports in one play.

Gotta love a 2nd year QB who progresses through his reads like that and also has the time (O-line).

I heard Kaep called RW to ask if he mispoke.

Conversation went like this "I don't understand this 1-4 reads". Who is this one-four guy you speak of? I have this one read and when that fails I panick

 

[Sprfunk]

It has nothing to do with the line of scrimmage, but everything to do with the location of the passer. If the pass or toss is dropped and the ball lands behind the passers location when the ball was thrown, it's a fumble.

I don't know about that. The rule as I understand it is like 40oz explained.

Umm, that is absolutely and positively not true. Trust me.

The OP wanted to know when a dropped pass could be considered a fumble. I stated it had nothing to do with the line of scrimmage and it does not. Think about a screen pass. Most screen pass are thrown to a back that is positioned behind the line of scrimmage, yet when the pass is dropped it's not considered a fumble even though it is a pass the lands behind the line of scrimmage. The reason is because the passer is still throwing the ball forward. When they look at whether a pass might or might not be a fumble, it is always depends on where the ball landed in relation to where the passer threw it.

+1

What else is a funny rule is that the Qb can pass with the majority of his body beyond the Line of Scrimmage. As long as any part of him is behind the LOS. He could technically have a pinky finger behind LOS and would still be able to pass the ball.

 

[NorCalHawk12]

I love RW's presser after the game about this play. He said he went through his 1-4 reads and none were open so he went for Lynch on a flip, double play style! One of my favorite plays of the year so far, just so improvised and clutch! Then Lynch with the finger roll! LOL, three sports in one play.

Gotta love a 2nd year QB who progresses through his reads like that and also has the time (O-line).

I heard Kaep called RW to ask if he mispoke.

Conversation went like this "I don't understand this 1-4 reads". Who is this one-four guy you speak of? I have this one read and when that fails I panick

Now at this, I L'ed O. L.

(I seriously don't like internet/texting shortcuts. This post, made an exception.)

 

[ratso]

Also, only allowed one forward pass per play. You can pass the ball backwards or sideways as many times as you'd like.

 

[CANHawk]

This might be the only forum where it takes 21 responses to answer a simple question.

Forward Pass:
- Behind the line of scrimmage
- QB arm has to be coming forward, going backward is a fumble
- Underhand or overhand, or sidearm, or through the legs, or behind the back, or ballet twirl and throw

Live Fumble:
- Anywhere on the field, line of scrimmage doesn't matter
- backwards pass/hand off

But what about "illegal forward pass"? QB heaves the ball 40 yards down field, but he's past the line of scrimage; is the ball live if it hits the ground?

there is no such thing as a simple question on dotnet.

 

[mikeak]

^ If it hits the ground - why would it be live? it would be an incomplete pass but deemed illegal so there would be a penalty on the play

Now is it live if intercepted? - and from the rules I guess it is

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/pu ... Fumble.pdf

 

[Spiderdan]

40 oz is actually correct. Much as it pains me to say it. If it is parallel to the los it would be a straight line. I.e. the 25 is the los if the passer is at the 20, the only way for it to be parallel to the los is for it to be thrown in a straight line to the 20. Thus it would not travel forward and not be ruled a forward pass.

 

[NorCalHawk12]

^ If it hits the ground - why would it be live? it would be an incomplete pass but deemed illegal so there would be a penalty on the play

Now is it live if intercepted?

Whoa!!! Hold on just a minute there...

THAT, my friend, is a good question. Is an illegal forward pass, that is, beyond the line of scrimmage, a dead ball foul? If so, no INT. Otherwise, decline penalty...1st and 10, for intercepting team (if not a pick 6)...

I'm gonna look it up...

 

[Sgt. Largent]

This might be the only forum where it takes 21 responses to answer a simple question.

Forward Pass:
- Behind the line of scrimmage
- QB arm has to be coming forward, going backward is a fumble
- Underhand or overhand, or sidearm, or through the legs, or behind the back, or ballet twirl and throw

Live Fumble:
- Anywhere on the field, line of scrimmage doesn't matter
- backwards pass/hand off

But what about "illegal forward pass"? QB heaves the ball 40 yards down field, but he's past the line of scrimage; is the ball live if it hits the ground?.

That's why I said "behind the line of scrimmage." If the QB is beyond the line of scrimmage, then it's an illegal forward pass and 5 yard penalty.

 

[mikeak]

^ I revised my post while you were quoting it. Looks like the penalty could be declined per the link I added

 

[Polaris]

If the ball is thrown forward (how doesn't matter), it is a foward pass. If it hits the ground it's a dead ball, and the play is over. For it to be a LEGAL forward pass, the passer has to be an eligible player (you don't have to be a QB to make a legal foward pass) behind the line of scrimmage, and you are limited to one per play. Edit: It also has to be a "legitimate" attempt to advance the ball (otherwise it's intentional grounding), with the excepton of the 'spike' play designed to stop the clock.

If the ball is thrown either parallel or backwards, it's not a foward pass (sometimes called a lateral), and the ball is considered a "live ball" if it hits the ground (and thus is a fumble).

Now the complication is just when does the ball motion become a forward pass (and this was the heart of the infamous and now discontinued 'tuck rule'). Essentially if the passer's hand is moving foward with the ball in it, then the forward pass is considered to be in progress, and if the ball is dropped/stripped at this point, then it's an incomplete pass. If the hand is NOT going foward before control of the ball is lost, then it's a fumble.

That's how I understand it anyway.

 

[tdlabrie]

I really appreciate all the responses, my brothers. Actually I was not in doubt about whether the QB's hand was moving forward/backward, nor about when the QB is past the line of scrimmage. I admit I didn't think about a shovel pass being considered a fumble, but that's not what I was asking either.

The bottom line that answers my question is this:
1) the ball in vertical relation to the LOS is meaningless.
2) the type of throw -- shovel, overhand, whatever -- is also meaningless.
3) if the position of the ball is ahead of the QB, it's an incomplete.
4) if the position of the ball is equal or behind the QB, it's a fumble.

Thanks again.

 

[Polaris]

I really appreciate all the responses, my brothers. Actually I was not in doubt about whether the QB's hand was moving forward/backward, nor about when the QB is past the line of scrimmage. I admit I didn't think about a shovel pass being considered a fumble, but that's not what I was asking either.

The bottom line that answers my question is this:
1) the ball in vertical relation to the LOS is meaningless.
2) the type of throw -- shovel, overhand, whatever -- is also meaningless.
3) if the position of the ball is ahead of the QB, it's an incomplete.
4) if the position of the ball is equal or behind the QB, it's a fumble.

Thanks again.

Regarding 3 and 4, that's almost true. The one exception is if the ball is batted backwards but had started forward. IIRC that's still counted as an incomplete forward pass if it hits the ground. It's the directionof the ball as it leaves the passer's hand that matters again IIRC.

 

[Sprfunk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgLj9lOwk

 

[253hawk]

I've been trying to find a shot of this pass--anyone have a link?

Can't get enough of RW in "shortstop" mode!

 

[Lords of Scythia]

40 oz is actually correct. Much as it pains me to say it. If it is parallel to the los it would be a straight line. I.e. the 25 is the los if the passer is at the 20, the only way for it to be parallel to the los is for it to be thrown in a straight line to the 20. Thus it would not travel forward and not be ruled a forward pass.

There's no such thing as a parallel pass--it's either forward or backwards and a lateral is backwards.