Graham Pissed @ Bevell?

[mrt144]

The broadcaster Lynch had a great point. Put another TE in the game if you have to to stay in and block and split Graham out wide.

We drafted Vannett for a reason, right?

 

[randomation]

So is Sioux actually Bevell? I can't think of any reason to defend two targets to Jimmy vs nine to freaking Kearse

 

[semiahmoo]

So is Sioux actually Bevell? I can't think of any reason to defend two targets to Jimmy vs nine to freaking Kearse

Amen to that.

Makes zero sense. It's like Bevell is clueless how to utilize a TE w/Graham's talents.

Or is it Pete who is pushing to use Graham as a blocker about 80% of the time???

 

[semiahmoo]

Much has been said regarding the lack of consistent targets to Jimmy Graham throughout the season.

It appears the only stat that matters - WINS vs LOSSES, supports the frustration so many have with this situation.

When Jimmy is targeted and accumulates 60+ yards in a game, the Hawks have won 5/6 of those contests.

In the games where Jimmy saw fewer targets and accumulated less than 60 total yards, the Hawks are 2/7.

This stat would indicate that Jimmy Graham might very well be the 2nd most important part of the Hawks' offense behind Russel Wilson - and yet, for whatever reason, be it Bevell or something else, we have seen Graham underutilized for multiple games, used as a blocker for a majority of plays, etc.

If the 60+ yds stat would hold for the entire season, (and given it's based on 6 games, so it's not an outlier but a clear trend, it is not beyond reason to think if the Hawks had been able to more fully utilize Graham's remarkable gifts as an athlete/receiver, the Hawks might very well be the most dominant team in the league right now instead of limping into the playoffs with multiple hot vs cold performances.

 

[cymatica]

Can anyone, please anyone, please explain how Bevell called a great game and utilized Graham properly. 31 points is not an answer. OL sucks isn't either. Please, tell me what I am missing. Give me an answer that makes sense and I will admit I'm wrong about Bevell. Please include any route concepts, scheme, or something along those lines. As has been pointed out, why not split him out and block with another TE? Why not quick slant? Why have him chip and play inline 70-80% of the plays? Why not scheme him open in the redzone?

If this crap was going on a couple times, then you could dismiss it. How is it these teams can play 8 in the box, constantly blitz, spy Wilson, but we can't isolate Jimmy Freakin Graham? It's a 2 year trend of sporatic production and no redzone results.

Please, tell me what I'm missing

 

[Jville]

Jimmy seemed agitated during much of this game and after his TD was downright subdued/sullen as if to say, "SEE, THEY GET ME THE BALL I GET IT DONE!!!"

So many times I see Bevell using Graham to block for yet another crappy running play. When Graham is utilized as a receiver, even if he isn't targeted, he's often pulling at least a double-team thus freeing up other receivers.

I see Graham as a world-class talent who, under a more TE-knowledgeable OC, could have have an amazing/league dominating season with Wilson/Baldwin etc.

But maybe that's just me and Bevell is in fact a offensive genius who is already utilizing Graham to the best of Graham's abilities...

Pure supposition generates pages of fictional accusations.

What a crock.

 

[semiahmoo]

Can anyone, please anyone, please explain how Bevell called a great game and utilized Graham properly. 31 points is not an answer. OL sucks isn't either. Please, tell me what I am missing. Give me an answer that makes sense and I will admit I'm wrong about Bevell. Please include any route concepts, scheme, or something along those lines. As has been pointed out, why not split him out and block with another TE? Why not quick slant? Why have him chip and play inline 70-80% of the plays? Why not scheme him open in the redzone?

If this crap was going on a couple times, then you could dismiss it. How is it these teams can play 8 in the box, constantly blitz, spy Wilson, but we can't isolate Jimmy Freakin Graham? It's a 2 year trend of sporatic production and no redzone results.

Please, tell me what I'm missing

You're not missing anything and it's a more than fair question/observation with LOTS of people asking it right along with you.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

You've got to love a thread like this.

Graham wants a trade, so do others.

Graham should tell them it's Bevell or him (errr... what is he going to retire?)

And presumably all of these people think Pete Carroll stands by Bevell and keeps him just to troll the team and prevent it from succeeding.

Or maybe, just maybe, the Seahawks scored 31 points today and what actually cost them was the pathetic OL, the streaky defense and the abysmal special teams?

Scapegoat.net

Bevell played a role this time. I repeatedly saw third down plays where Graham wasn't on the field. We spent the first half back in long-developing mode and it cost us.

The players' criticism of Bevell is making the whole thing a lot more credible.

 

[semiahmoo]

You've got to love a thread like this.

Graham wants a trade, so do others.

Graham should tell them it's Bevell or him (errr... what is he going to retire?)

And presumably all of these people think Pete Carroll stands by Bevell and keeps him just to troll the team and prevent it from succeeding.

Or maybe, just maybe, the Seahawks scored 31 points today and what actually cost them was the pathetic OL, the streaky defense and the abysmal special teams?

Scapegoat.net

Bevell played a role this time. I repeatedly saw third down plays where Graham wasn't on the field. We spent the first half back in long-developing mode and it cost us.

The players' criticism of Bevell is making the whole thing a lot more credible.

EXACTLY - and the push back from some in here not to criticize Bevell that much more non-credible.

The play calling too often sucks, period. And for some reason, Bevell was pulling Graham off the field when he should have been the FIRST FRIGGIN' OPTION for that play.

Crazy.

 

[RichNhansom]

These threads are fun. Don't even have to read the posts fully to know what is being said.

I do think it is time to move on from Bevell and Cable but I'm not convinced it will help us.

Wilson has looked bad this whole season. Constant over throws and never seems to hit a receiver in stride. He looks panicked this year and I'm sure some of that is the O-line but it doesn't change that he looks kind of lost and constantly running into trouble instead of out of it.

Wilson appears to struggle over the middle as well as the red zone. That limits very heavily what any play caller can do, especially if the QB is audibling out of plays. Add to that our O-line coach has not made progress for 5 years and you have to question everything. Look at AZ yesterday their O-line is much worse off than ours is now and Palmer is way less mobile than Russ yet we struggled to get pressure.

I don't know if changing the OC and line coach will help or hurt but at this point we need to do something as the team appears to be losing confidence and Wilson looks to be regressing.

 

[semiahmoo]

These threads are fun. Don't even have to read the posts fully to know what is being said.

I do think it is time to move on from Bevell and Cable but I'm not convinced it will help us.

Wilson has looked bad this whole season. Constant over throws and never seems to hit a receiver in stride. He looks panicked this year and I'm sure some of that is the O-line but it doesn't change that he looks kind of lost and constantly running into trouble instead of out of it.

Wilson appears to struggle over the middle as well as the red zone. That limits very heavily what any play caller can do, especially if the QB is audibling out of plays. Add to that our O-line coach has not made progress for 5 years and you have to question everything. Look at AZ yesterday their O-line is much worse off than ours is now and Palmer is way less mobile than Russ yet we struggled to get pressure.

I don't know if changing the OC and line coach will help or hurt but at this point we need to do something as the team appears to be losing confidence and Wilson looks to be regressing.

----------------------

As much as I hate to agree with most of what you said - I have to.

You're right.

Wilson relied heavily on his scrambling abilities and back when the Hawks were still a running threat, he was able to get away with that kind of repeated broken play offense.

Now he's slower, and yes, more panicked back there after repeated abuse by defenses tearing through our feeble O-Line.

His pass-timing is off, and many of his pass stats have been the result of receivers making very difficult catches via balls over and under-thrown time and time again.

RW is remains a good quarterback via his sheer will to win. The guy works harder than anyone, but physical limitations and perhaps, a mind that is now overcome by uncertainty in his own physical limitations, are taking a toll and preventing him from ascending to the next level.

Better use of Jimmy Graham could have alleviated so much of these problems, but alas, the current OC has rarely seemed capable of doing just that:
---------------
Much has been said regarding the lack of consistent targets to Jimmy Graham throughout the season.

It appears the only stat that matters - WINS vs LOSSES, supports the frustration so many have with this situation.

When Jimmy is targeted and accumulates 60+ yards in a game, the Hawks have won 5/6 of those contests.

In the games where Jimmy saw fewer targets and accumulated less than 60 total yards, the Hawks are 2/7.

This stat would indicate that Jimmy Graham might very well be the 2nd most important part of the Hawks' offense behind Russel Wilson - and yet, for whatever reason, be it Bevell or something else, we have seen Graham underutilized for multiple games, used as a blocker for a majority of plays, etc.

If the 60+ yds stat would hold for the entire season, (and given it's based on 6 games, so it's not an outlier but a clear trend, it is not beyond reason to think if the Hawks had been able to more fully utilize Graham's remarkable gifts as an athlete/receiver, the Hawks might very well be the most dominant team in the league right now instead of limping into the playoffs with multiple hot vs cold performances.
----------------------

 

[RolandDeschain]

We're watching the same thing happen to Russell Wilson that happened to Marc Bulger and David Carr. Crappy O-lines for years broke them and they started always hearing footsteps even when they weren't there. We need to dump Bevell & probably Cable, and fix the O-line. Seriously, I'd be happy to watch us spend all three of our first draft picks on OL.

 

[LeftHandSmoke]

These threads are fun. Don't even have to read the posts fully to know what is being said.

I do think it is time to move on from Bevell and Cable but I'm not convinced it will help us.

Wilson has looked bad this whole season. Constant over throws and never seems to hit a receiver in stride. He looks panicked this year and I'm sure some of that is the O-line but it doesn't change that he looks kind of lost and constantly running into trouble instead of out of it.

Wilson appears to struggle over the middle as well as the red zone. That limits very heavily what any play caller can do, especially if the QB is audibling out of plays. Add to that our O-line coach has not made progress for 5 years and you have to question everything. Look at AZ yesterday their O-line is much worse off than ours is now and Palmer is way less mobile than Russ yet we struggled to get pressure.

I don't know if changing the OC and line coach will help or hurt but at this point we need to do something as the team appears to be losing confidence and Wilson looks to be regressing.

----------------------

As much as I hate to agree with most of what you said - I have to.

You're right.

Wilson relied heavily on his scrambling abilities and back when the Hawks were still a running threat, he was able to get away with that kind of repeated broken play offense.

Now he's slower, and yes, more panicked back there after repeated abuse by defenses tearing through our feeble O-Line.

His pass-timing is off, and many of his pass stats have been the result of receivers making very difficult catches via balls over and under-thrown time and time again.

RW is remains a good quarterback via his sheer will to win. The guy works harder than anyone, but physical limitations and perhaps, a mind that is now overcome by uncertainty in his own physical limitations, are taking a toll and preventing him from ascending to the next level.

Better use of Jimmy Graham could have alleviated so much of these problems, but alas, the current OC has rarely seemed capable of doing just that:
---------------
Much has been said regarding the lack of consistent targets to Jimmy Graham throughout the season.

It appears the only stat that matters - WINS vs LOSSES, supports the frustration so many have with this situation.

When Jimmy is targeted and accumulates 60+ yards in a game, the Hawks have won 5/6 of those contests.

In the games where Jimmy saw fewer targets and accumulated less than 60 total yards, the Hawks are 2/7.

This stat would indicate that Jimmy Graham might very well be the 2nd most important part of the Hawks' offense behind Russel Wilson - and yet, for whatever reason, be it Bevell or something else, we have seen Graham underutilized for multiple games, used as a blocker for a majority of plays, etc.

If the 60+ yds stat would hold for the entire season, (and given it's based on 6 games, so it's not an outlier but a clear trend, it is not beyond reason to think if the Hawks had been able to more fully utilize Graham's remarkable gifts as an athlete/receiver, the Hawks might very well be the most dominant team in the league right now instead of limping into the playoffs with multiple hot vs cold performances.
----------------------

Geezus, it's bad enough that so many others repost your constant same-old same-old messages by responding to them. Why on earth do you feel it necessary that you yourself do it too?

Tell you what: How about you post the same dang thing just once and POST IT IN ALL CAPS if that solves your yelling problems? Criminy!

 

[semiahmoo]

We're watching the same thing happen to Russell Wilson that happened to Marc Bulger and David Carr. Crappy O-lines for years broke them and they started always hearing footsteps even when they weren't there. We need to dump Bevell & probably Cable, and fix the O-line. Seriously, I'd be happy to watch us spend all three of our first draft picks on OL.

Great examples of what could be happening to RW.

He was given a franchise QB contract, and yet, has not been treated like a franchise QB.

That is why RW needs to step up and truly make this his team by acting like Mr. Franchise. Throw some elbows at the front office and demand things change. The players will respect that, and right now, respect in this organization is crumbling at an alarming rate.

Hell, I'd support RW making more audibles out there if he has the football mind to pull it off. Throw away Bevell's play book more often than not. TAKE OVER this offense.

That would be a very bold move, and would place all the responsibility for success or failure on RW's shoulders, but at this point, I think most on the team would give him a HELL YEAH and it might force a much needed Come to Jesus moment between players and staff. It seems too much has been festering under the surface for too long.

 

[RichNhansom]

These threads are fun. Don't even have to read the posts fully to know what is being said.

I do think it is time to move on from Bevell and Cable but I'm not convinced it will help us.

Wilson has looked bad this whole season. Constant over throws and never seems to hit a receiver in stride. He looks panicked this year and I'm sure some of that is the O-line but it doesn't change that he looks kind of lost and constantly running into trouble instead of out of it.

Wilson appears to struggle over the middle as well as the red zone. That limits very heavily what any play caller can do, especially if the QB is audibling out of plays. Add to that our O-line coach has not made progress for 5 years and you have to question everything. Look at AZ yesterday their O-line is much worse off than ours is now and Palmer is way less mobile than Russ yet we struggled to get pressure.

I don't know if changing the OC and line coach will help or hurt but at this point we need to do something as the team appears to be losing confidence and Wilson looks to be regressing.

----------------------

As much as I hate to agree with most of what you said - I have to.

You're right.

Wilson relied heavily on his scrambling abilities and back when the Hawks were still a running threat, he was able to get away with that kind of repeated broken play offense.

Now he's slower, and yes, more panicked back there after repeated abuse by defenses tearing through our feeble O-Line.

His pass-timing is off, and many of his pass stats have been the result of receivers making very difficult catches via balls over and under-thrown time and time again.

RW is remains a good quarterback via his sheer will to win. The guy works harder than anyone, but physical limitations and perhaps, a mind that is now overcome by uncertainty in his own physical limitations, are taking a toll and preventing him from ascending to the next level.

Better use of Jimmy Graham could have alleviated so much of these problems, but alas, the current OC has rarely seemed capable of doing just that:
---------------
Much has been said regarding the lack of consistent targets to Jimmy Graham throughout the season.

It appears the only stat that matters - WINS vs LOSSES, supports the frustration so many have with this situation.

When Jimmy is targeted and accumulates 60+ yards in a game, the Hawks have won 5/6 of those contests.

In the games where Jimmy saw fewer targets and accumulated less than 60 total yards, the Hawks are 2/7.

This stat would indicate that Jimmy Graham might very well be the 2nd most important part of the Hawks' offense behind Russel Wilson - and yet, for whatever reason, be it Bevell or something else, we have seen Graham underutilized for multiple games, used as a blocker for a majority of plays, etc.

If the 60+ yds stat would hold for the entire season, (and given it's based on 6 games, so it's not an outlier but a clear trend, it is not beyond reason to think if the Hawks had been able to more fully utilize Graham's remarkable gifts as an athlete/receiver, the Hawks might very well be the most dominant team in the league right now instead of limping into the playoffs with multiple hot vs cold performances.
----------------------

Like I said though, we don't know how many plays Wilson has changed at the LOS or how many times he went a different direction because he didn't like what he saw when he looked Jimmies direction.

One of the areas I have always thought Wilson needed to improve on was throwing receivers open or throwing to a spot but I don't believe this is an area he has improved. Wilson still needs to believe his receiver is open and anticipating the throw, before he will throw the ball. Jimmy doesn't provide traditional separation so maybe he isn't getting targeted because of that.

This is why I said I don't know if changing OC's will help. I do think it is time to find out but I'm not convinced it is the answer. I believe as much of the problem lies at Wilson's feet. I do believe Cable has had more than enough time and resources to provide a better product than we see currently and improving that product would do alot to help evaluate the other areas.

Many here believe Wilson walks on water. I love a lot of things I see from him but I believe he has some flaws that are showing up on the field. Like almost never leading a receiver on deep passes. You can ask is Lockett hurt right now if he doesn't have to slow down just a little to wait for the ball?

 

[semiahmoo]

"Many here believe Wilson walks on water. I love a lot of things I see from him but I believe he has some flaws that are showing up on the field. Like almost never leading a receiver on deep passes. You can ask is Lockett hurt right now if he doesn't have to slow down just a little to wait for the ball?"
----------------------

Fair point. RW's status was elevated initially in part by a team stacked with talent, a world-class defense, and world-class running back at the height of his powers.

Since that time, more of Wilson's physical limitations have been exposed and he's also had to endure repeated physical trauma due to a tepid at best O-Line.

I am still a RW fan - but want a team willing to truly see how he can perform/develop with a more competent O-Line and more capable OC.

 

[mrt144]

"Many here believe Wilson walks on water. I love a lot of things I see from him but I believe he has some flaws that are showing up on the field. Like almost never leading a receiver on deep passes. You can ask is Lockett hurt right now if he doesn't have to slow down just a little to wait for the ball?"
----------------------

Fair point. RW's status was elevated initially in part by a team stacked with talent, a world-class defense, and world-class running back at the height of his powers.

Since that time, more of Wilson's physical limitations have been exposed and he's also had to endure repeated physical trauma due to a tepid at best O-Line.

I am still a RW fan - but want a team willing to truly see how he can perform/develop with a more competent O-Line and more capable OC.

I would love to see Wilson's talents in a somewhat different offensive scheme, whatever that might be.

 

[vin.couve12]

In the first half, Bevell called a shite game. We had about 0 yards all half. Now, that is compounded by RW consistently being a slow starter. Camping with the ball up until the 2 minute offense in the first half is an RW trait, as is accuracy problems. THEN you throw in the OL and it easily becomes a disaster. We used to be a running team in the first half with one of the best generational backs you'll ever see and that overshadowed a lot of those shortcomings. RW turned it on in the second half, as he usually does, and then we get all of these scewed views about things.

We suck as an offense habitually in first halves. That's almost always the case without emphasis on the running game. Bevell is a part of it, RW is a part of it, and the OL is as well. Not to mention that any decent RB we have can't stay healthy. At this point, I'd be fine if we ran Collins a lot in the first half. He used to look like he could do the truffle shuffle, but he looked fit and much better yesterday. We NEED to mitigate the first half shortcomings of Bevell, RW, and the OL. It pays off later in the game. They're all slow starters, IMO.

 

[flmmkrz]

In the first half, Bevell called a shite game. We had about 0 yards all half. Now, that is compounded by RW consistently being a slow starter. Camping with the ball up until the 2 minute offense in the first half is an RW trait, as is accuracy problems. THEN you throw in the OL and it easily becomes a disaster. We used to be a running team in the first half with one of the best generational backs you'll ever see and that overshadowed a lot of those shortcomings. RW turned it on in the second half, as he usually does, and then we get all of these scewed views about things.

We suck as an offense habitually in first halves. That's almost always the case without emphasis on the running game. Bevell is a part of it, RW is a part of it, and the OL is as well. Not to mention that any decent RB we have can't stay healthy. At this point, I'd be fine if we ran Collins a lot in the first half. He used to look like he could do the truffle shuffle, but he looked fit and much better yesterday. We NEED to mitigate the first half shortcomings of Bevell, RW, and the OL. It pays off later in the game. They're all slow starters, IMO.

SInce you brought it up I find it funny how people who think Bevell calls a great game don't see this pattern that the offense habitually starts off very slow. That is Bevells game plan walking in, then it was MikeRob who said it is Cable who makes the half time adjustments and is the best in the game at that so DB starts us off in a mess, Cable comes in and fixes it and somehow people think Bevell is part of the solution and all the shit lines up at Cables doorstep...The oline is not great and Cable needs to be accountable for that but if we didn't have his 2nd half adjustments and had to keep on with the DBs ability to adapt where would we be? Would we be seeing more of the 1st half carried on. If Cable were fired 2 weeks ago for arguments sake would we have seen the 2nd half adjustment in this past weekends cards game or would we have finished with more of the same? we'll never know but from everything I've seen, when we struggle 1st quarter it rarely gets better till half so there rarely seems to be in game adjustments until half when others seem to chime in.

 

[LeftHandSmoke]

Didn't we already see stats posted that show the Hawks are scoring more in the first half than the second half? (by ratio, if not in totality which especially on the road is down)