Huh. YAC matters. Who would have guessed?

CalgaryFan05

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"The Kansas City Chiefs, San Francisco 49ers, and Detroit Lions were the top three teams in EPA per pass attempt, and perhaps not coincidentally all of them had the highest yards after catch per dropback. As usual, the Seahawks were in the bottom-half."

Tyler..... anyone.... Bueller.... anyone.....
 

bileever

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Important statistic, and a great way to move the ball down the field. Mookie suggests, without saying it outright that the offensive scheme plays a big role in creating run after the catch possibilities. We see it in Kyle Shanahan's and Sean McVay's offenses, where the WR catches the ball in space with room to rumble. It would be great to see this concept incorporated in our plays as well. The QB is able to complete a higher percentage, shorter pass but still gain chunk yardage.

Of course, personnel matter as well. Enter Jaxon Smith Njigba, who, in 2021, had 790 yards after the catch, or 8.3 YAC per reception. The QB also plays a big role in this, placing the ball where the receiver can catch it in stride.

 
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CalgaryFan05

CalgaryFan05

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Important statistic, and a great way to move the ball down the field. Mookie suggests, without saying it outright that the offensive scheme plays a big role in creating run after the catch possibilities. We see it in Kyle Shanahan's and Sean McVay's offenses, where the WR catches the ball in space with room to rumble. It would be great to see this concept incorporated in our plays as well. The QB is able to complete a higher percentage, shorter pass but still gain chunk yardage.

Of course, personnel matter as well. Enter Jaxon Smith Njigba, who, in 2021, had 790 yards after the catch, or 8.3 YAC per reception. The QB also plays a big role in this, placing the ball where the receiver can catch it in stride.

Exactly - JSN fits in precisely where the hole is.... from what I can tell.

Now if they can stop candy assing him in camp - that would be great! We don't need a home grown prima donna!

<edit>: And BTW, we could use the TE group for intermediate and close in yards. Well, for half the season anyhow until PC takes the option away ;)
 

Jegpeg

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Maybe I'm making it too simple but does it really make a difference is a 20 yard completion is caught at the line of scrimage woth 20 YAC or caught 20 yards ahead of the line of scimmage with 0 YAC. What matters is yards per attempt and it doesn't matter how you get there.

Last season we were 8th in Yds/Att not bad but certainly room for improvement. Having a JSN might just do that.
 

Year of The Hawk

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Maybe I'm making it too simple but does it really make a difference is a 20 yard completion is caught at the line of scrimage woth 20 YAC or caught 20 yards ahead of the line of scimmage with 0 YAC. What matters is yards per attempt and it doesn't matter how you get there.

Last season we were 8th in Yds/Att not bad but certainly room for improvement. Having a JSN might just do that.
This was addressed in a similar article I just read. A 20 yard pass has a lower percentage of success than a short pass with YAC. It is a numbers game nowadays. It actually makes sense to me as well. The shorter passes less likely to get picked off as well (probably). Short passes are also quicker to develop therefor less time for the oline to keep pressure off.
 

Mick063

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Franchise record. First time over 4,000 yards passing. DON"T CHANGE ANYTHING. Because now they've got a new mauler guard and a new power back to help finish the last ten yards with. That is where the offensive deficiency was. Certainly, wasn't in the passing game. Nope, the problem was not in starting drives. It was in finishing them. If you want to live in the stat book, try looking up red zone efficiency. The answer is staring you in the face. Not this dumb "dink and dunk" concept.

 
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Jegpeg

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Franchise record. First time over 4,000 yards passing. DON"T CHANGE ANYTHING. Because now they've got a new mauler guard and a new power back to help finish the last ten yards with. That is where the offensive deficiency was. Certainly, wasn't in the passing game. Nope, the problem was not in starting drives. It was in finishing them. If you want to live in the stat book, try looking up red zone efficiency. The answer is staring you in the face. Not this dumb "dink and dunk" concept.

Unless you reckon K9 was a significant downgrade on Carson, we had similar personnel at Guard and RB in 2021 as 2022 but managed to be ranked 3rd in redzone efficiency in 2021 and 27th in 2022. I guess it is more complex than that.
 

Mick063

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Unless you reckon K9 was a significant downgrade on Carson, we had similar personnel at Guard and RB in 2021 as 2022 but managed to be ranked 3rd in redzone efficiency in 2021 and 27th in 2022. I guess it is more complex than that.
1) 4,000 passing yards. Franchise record.
2) Red Zone efficiency rank 27

I guess I have to boil it down to fewer words to make it comprehendible. YAC complaints don't mean crap relative to points 1 & 2. Hey, you are the guys that are breaking out the stat book. So let these bare numbers do the talking.

Two years ago, the Eagle were 9-8. This is why two years ago is ancient history. So where are your YAC results from 2021? If you are going to bring a different year into the discussion for a comparative analysis, then come with the relative facts to back up your reason for including it. Remember? You were originally arguing for YAC, not against red zone efficiency.
 
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AgentDib

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The other benefit of lower distance/higher YAC routes is consistency. Lockett is good for four to five huge catches every game which are often highlights. It's a more volatile playstyle, however, and on 2nd and 8 in the second quarter sometimes you just want a very high completion route with 6-15 yard potential.

The FO has been trying to add weapons it's just been hit and miss. What we'll likely have this year with JSN is what the FO was hoping to have the last two seasons with Eskridge when they spent a high draft pick on him.
 

GeekHawk

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Since Yards per Attempt includes Yards After Catch, I would say that YAC by itself is only half a statistic. Yards per Attempt also includes the percentage of those long catches that are actually made, so the argument that 'longer passes are less likely to be caught' is totally specious when your YPA is top-7 no matter what the YAC is. When YPA is top-10 then YAC is just icing on the cake.
 

Pandion Haliaetus

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This is why JSN was important, Seahawks had their choice of any WR they wanted and they took a WR who was billed as an elite Slot WR,

They also took a guy that I think Matt Berry said, if true, once registered 24 MPH in game on the gps. Even if it was 21-22, that is 4.3 to 4.4 speed. It was also said that JSN was advised to not to run or workout at the combine but did so anyway knowing he wasn’t 100%.

If JSN does have at least 4.4 speed and he’s pairing that with insanely elite quickness he’s going to be a YAC monster.

Cooper Kupp in his four first season average close to 900 yards, 6 TDS per year. If JSN is even 2/3rds of that at 600/4 per he’d be the best slot type for the Seahawks since a young Baldwin and Lockett.

Getting the ball in his hands and him being productive with it is only half of the equation, the other half is defenses respecting JSN game and thusly acknowledging his presence. If they got him in man coverage and he has that speed to take top off or if they got him in zone coverage and he using his agility to split the defenders and get to the open spot. He’s going to be a big time headache. If he can command opponents to take him out of the game, you know, it has been said how much that would open up Lockett and Metcalf with better opportunities and that is likely true.

But if JSN is something like capable of taking the slot defender for a loop, freezing a zone read LBer in his wake and then grabbing a safety or two towards his route because your man and zone leverages just got clowned. Just think about how much space that could create in the short to intermediate areas especially in the middle of the field. Think about all those Rams plays where Kupp is doing the same thing but the pass play is going to their TEs or RBs underneath off of decoy pass-protection routes and all of sudden they are open with so much space.

Potentially, JSN is going to help the entire offense not just Lockett or Metcalf being able to get more vertical on the outside with more one on one opps, not just Waldron being able to get more creative with timing and execution based route concepts with his RBs and TEs but think about Walker. The physicality wear and tear of trying to create through a stacked box and defenses being able to meet him before his cut is one of his only weaknesses as a runner. What if defenses can’t entirely sell out because of so much quality to keep track of in Lockett and Metcalf and with JSN being an elite slot, Walker is going to have much better opportunities to be able to be the elite creator he is and perhaps with a better O-line bigger holes to run through.

I just see it. I wasn’t as excited on draft day seeing his name called, I thought it was great value at #20 but I didn’t go through half a year of draft process thinking CB and WR were going to be the 1st rounders either. But I see it now, just think if you added a prime Baldwin or a young Kupp to what this offense already has, that is what I feel JSN will bring.

Waldron/Dickerson have everything they need in place to get their scheme to run on all cylinders, with a plethora of quality personnel and different skill sets at their disposal to be as dynamic, deadly, and dominate as any offense in the league.

A couple of years from now, if the Seahawks try to intercept a big ticket free agent QB by flying their private jet to another franchise’s city and begging for an audience, I don’t think it would get that far, they’d be the destination and the priority. Offense is going to be primed and stacked for any QB moving forward.
 
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Jegpeg

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1) 4,000 passing yards. Franchise record.
2) Red Zone efficiency rank 27

I guess I have to boil it down to fewer words to make it comprehendible. YAC complaints don't mean crap relative to points 1 & 2. Hey, you are the guys that are breaking out the stat book. So let these bare numbers do the talking.

Two years ago, the Eagle were 9-8. This is why two years ago is ancient history. So where are your YAC results from 2021? If you are going to bring a different year into the discussion for a comparative analysis, then come with the relative facts to back up your reason for including it. Remember? You were originally arguing for YAC, not against red zone efficiency.
I never argued for YAC. I originally said yds/att means more but I agree red zone efficiency is at least as important, you need to get to the red zone and score points when you get there.
My latest arguement is that red zone efficiency is more complex than the quality of your guards and RBs, if we can finish 3rd and 27th with essentially the same roster in those positions.
 

chris98251

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Watch the old 49ers, Rice, Taylor, Tyler, Rathman, Craig, Clark, Solomon, Jones etc, they lived off YAC or RAC, the next generations of offense was based on it, our offense is based on its concepts even.
 

Kamcussionator

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I would be curious what our YAC was back in 2012-2013. Those were the days of "Point Guard" Russ where he'd get the ball out quick and let guys make plays. As time wore on he'd hold out for longer throws, but at the cost of YAC. One of my pet peeves was that he generally under threw every deep ball (except for the Kearse throw against GB which he threw on a rope) so our receiver would have to stop/come back with no YAC opportunity.

Fast forward to Geno last year. My take is that Geno plays conservative and is happy to take the underneath stuff, but was a heartbeat slow in his reads which affected both YAC and Red Zone success. I will be interested to see if this year he is a skosh faster in his decision making. I think that more than anything will elevate our pass offense.
 

chris98251

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Throwing guys open and in stride is a big key also, you don't want them to have to stop and start.
 
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CalgaryFan05

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Franchise record. First time over 4,000 yards passing. DON"T CHANGE ANYTHING. Because now they've got a new mauler guard and a new power back to help finish the last ten yards with. That is where the offensive deficiency was. Certainly, wasn't in the passing game. Nope, the problem was not in starting drives. It was in finishing them. If you want to live in the stat book, try looking up red zone efficiency. The answer is staring you in the face. Not this dumb "dink and dunk" concept.

I'm looking forward to a re-utilization of the shorter game, 'balanced' with the go route 30 yards down the field rainbows that came from the RW3 era - and that inbalance SHOULD mostly be left in the RW3 era - but it's fingerprints were left on our receiving core. IMO.

Tyler doesn't think that catch and hit the deck is a problem. DK also got lazy with his routes last year, and just kinda weird and difficult near the end off the season.

Both Tyler and DK got Russ'ed in my opinion. You can't run an offense on just go routes, rainbow passes and sparkly unicorn farts. Whether the shorter game is a JSN or a TE group revisit - I'M looking forward to having some options in the receiving core. I honestly feel like the pair of them kinda held us hostage (perhaps bad terminology) after the TE experiment was shut down by PC last season after Munich. Gonna be nice to have some options.

Honestly - Tyler is reminding me of SA 2.0 lately. And the fact that he's OK with it - well, that just bugs me. I don't F'ing care if your high school coach told you to "catch what you can and get down". This is not High School, this is not T-Ball baseball. This is the NFL - you're gettin paid.

Ya need to try.
 

Mick063

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I'm looking forward to a re-utilization of the shorter game, 'balanced' with the go route 30 yards down the field rainbows that came from the RW3 era - and that inbalance SHOULD mostly be left in the RW3 era - but it's fingerprints were left on our receiving core. IMO.

Tyler doesn't think that catch and hit the deck is a problem. DK also got lazy with his routes last year, and just kinda weird and difficult near the end off the season.

Both Tyler and DK got Russ'ed in my opinion. You can't run an offense on just go routes, rainbow passes and sparkly unicorn farts. Whether the shorter game is a JSN or a TE group revisit - I'M looking forward to having some options in the receiving core. I honestly feel like the pair of them kinda held us hostage (perhaps bad terminology) after the TE experiment was shut down by PC last season after Munich. Gonna be nice to have some options.

Honestly - Tyler is reminding me of SA 2.0 lately. And the fact that he's OK with it - well, that just bugs me. I don't F'ing care if your high school coach told you to "catch what you can and get down". This is not High School, this is not T-Ball baseball. This is the NFL - you're gettin paid.

Ya need to try.
I get the mob mentality validation of JSN although he doesn't really need it. I understand it though. He is going to tear it up from the slot and he is going to get YAC. YAC WILL improve with him. I'm not saying it won't. But the team's single greatest offensive problem is finishing drives. PERIOD.

Further, I HATE offense that uses bubble screens for a crutch. Especially at the expense of our new Chris Carson clone. Plus, Geno has too long of a wind up for a heavy "dink and dunk"" game and that isn't necessarily a bad thing because that big wind up is the reason why he can effortlessly sling the ball 65 yards. The only issue with a long wind up is that it exposes the ball to long-armed edge players for a fraction of a second longer than normal. I can live with the tradeoff. Regardless, the Seahawk's game day offense is not typically predicated on a short passing game. It is typically predicated on deep, and intermediate routes set up by play action. It is typically not representative of the Bill Walsh offense although the playbook for EVERY team is vast and includes EVERY play imaginable. What really matters is what the OC pulls out of that huge playbook for his game day short list and that is entirely dependent upon perceived mismatches or what the teams is really good at executing.

Now that JSN can potentially create some mismatches from the slot, you will see more of those type of "Bill Walsh" plays. But don't confuse that with the idea that the team isn't looking to get DK one on one for a fly or Tyler for a post. I have watched Carroll long enough to know that he does two things:

1) He tries to maximize the skill set of his roster and will adapt the offense to fit. That means he will adjust his offense to include maximizing JSN (in other words the YAC that you folks are clamoring for).
2) He loves to run the football to set up play action and he LOVES "big chunk" passing plays (Just ask the Packers). His belief in Geno just screams it.

One final note. Watch some games from last season and notice how many quick curls/comebacks are thrown to DK Metcalf. You know why? Because he is big and strong, and they are hoping he breaks one tackle to take it the distance. The team tries it at least once per quarter. So it is NOT as if the team wasn't trying to get some YAC. What they really need is for DK to be a little more like Deebo Samuel and break a few more "one on one" tackles. Don't get me wrong. DK is flat out awesome on fly patterns and red zone fade patterns. His large catch radius is ideally suited for it. So, I'm not bagging on him because there are parts of his game that are truly elite. But he seriously needs to work on breaking tackles if the team is going to utilize him that way. Instead, I think JSN will occupy that YAC role and instead of breaking the initial tackle, he will just make the guy miss. Hence, the new focal point for YAC.
 
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CalgaryFan05

CalgaryFan05

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I get the mob mentality validation of JSN although he doesn't really need it. I understand it though. He is going to tear it up from the slot and he is going to get YAC. YAC WILL improve with him. I'm not saying it won't. But the team's single greatest offensive problem is finishing drives. PERIOD.

Further, I HATE offense that uses bubble screens for a crutch. Especially at the expense of our new Chris Carson clone. Plus, Geno has too long of a wind up for a heavy "dink and dunk"" game and that isn't necessarily a bad thing because that big wind up is the reason why he can effortlessly sling the ball 65 yards. The only issue with a long wind up is that it exposes the ball to long-armed edge players for a fraction of a second longer than normal. I can live with the tradeoff. Regardless, the Seahawk's game day offense is not typically predicated on a short passing game. It is typically predicated on deep, and intermediate routes set up by play action. It is typically not representative of the Bill Walsh offense although the playbook for EVERY team is vast and includes EVERY play imaginable. What really matters is what the OC pulls out of that huge playbook for his game day short list and that is entirely dependent upon perceived mismatches or what the teams is really good at executing.

Now that JSN can potentially create some mismatches from the slot, you will see more of those type of "Bill Walsh" plays. But don't confuse that with the idea that the team isn't looking to get DK one on one for a fly or Tyler for a post. I have watched Carroll long enough to know that he does two things:

1) He tries to maximize the skill set of his roster and will adapt the offense to fit. That means he will adjust his offense to include maximizing JSN (in other words the YAC that you folks are clamoring for).
2) He loves to run the football to set up play action and he LOVES "big chunk" passing plays (Just ask the Packers). His belief in Geno just screams it.

One final note. Watch some games from last season and notice how many quick curls/comebacks are thrown to DK Metcalf. You know why? Because he is big and strong, and they are hoping he breaks one tackle to take it the distance. The team tries it at least once per quarter. So it is NOT as if the team wasn't trying to get some YAC. What they really need is for DK to be a little more like Deebo Samuel and break a few more "one on one" tackles. Don't get me wrong. DK is flat out awesome on fly patterns and red zone fade patterns. His large catch radius is ideally suited for it. So, I'm not bagging on him because there are parts of his game that are truly elite. But he seriously needs to work on breaking tackles if the team is going to utilize him that way. Instead, I think JSN will occupy that YAC role and instead of breaking the initial tackle, he will just make the guy miss. Hence, the new focal point for YAC.
What 'I' saw in the last 1/2 of the season (again, yes, post munich) was:

A lack of heart and trying in our WR corps. Between DK route running and Tyler hitting the deck - well.

I hope JSN shakes it up a bit.

I get some of your points. The TEAM is always trying to get YAC. The receivers - well, not so much.
 

GemCity

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I missed the part where someone said YAC don’t matter.
 
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