If last night was Pet-ball

[chris98251]

If I am Wilson's agent, I save this game as an example to Wilson that he might get some 4th quarter heroics but under Pete he is never going to win big games in the playoffs - because he is very rarely going to get the opportunity.

Wilson is probably a better QB than his record in the playoffs indicate.

But he is often put in difficult situations to get out of, or not given the chance in the first place.

Wilson with a team that used him as their lead horse, would probably go a lot farther.

The thing Pete forgets is that while that blueprint works during the regular season - you are facing bad opponents in at least half your game. The top teams in the playoffs cannot just be beaten by an 'out-athlete the other guy' strategy unless you are loaded with HOF players (like we were). But they can be beaten by a great QB that gets hot at the right time, this is why everyone was so worried about guys like Aaron Rodgers making the playoffs.

As they said, all you have to do is make the playoffs. But not if you won't use your QB.

Not using Wilson and running the ball repeatedly (with freaking Mike Davis?) in the 2nd half is the equivalent of trying to do a sacrifice bunt with Ken Griffey Jr. It might work, but it robs you of a hell of a lot of upside.

I still think Wilson does not extend, and reasons like this are why. He could go to a loaded team and carry them - to become a hero. But he is criminally underused here. Either the HC does not trust him, or the HC is old and tired clinging to an old and tired philosophy that won't work against the better defenses in the playoffs.

The narrative of that game after the game is that Pete failed Wilson by failing to use him. We will see if Wilson or his agent ends up bothered later because of it. I know if I knew the guy I would be telling him that his coaches let him down on this one. I imagine the people that know him now are saying the same thing as the media is saying right now.

Getting beat outright is one thing but we were ridiculously conservative with a freaking 4 point lead in a playoff game. We didn't even get a sense of urgency until it was far too late because we played that game as if we expected the defense not to give up scores. Average defenses get scored on, that is why you need to score points in all 4 quarters.

Thats one narritive, another is one where they adapted the offense to his skill set, he still needs some pieces to exploit aspects like a big target. His height limits his quick throws on quick slants, they roll him out and allow hom to use his legs to make plays here, many others would not and in fact still frown on the mobile QB. You want numbers 5000 passing yards etc, thats not going to happen with Wilson regularly. Pete tries to use the skill sets of his players and puts them in a position of what the do best, Wilson is given that. Many Coaches want a player to adapt to what they want which may not be what that player does well.


Wilson is in a situation that works with his skill set, you may be able to send him to Oakland / Miami / Tampa Bay / Buffalo / Arizona / New York Jets and or Giants . Seems those teams have had a lot of QB turn over and or have not been able to have a QB that transcends to the top of the list of the league. This is while they have turned over Head Coaches, OC's and a truck load of players. You have to look at how they run their organzations and who dictates what to be consistenly having problems. Sending a player like Wilson to be a savior will likely continue that level of futility and just make him the new Scapegoat. I think Wilson knows this as well if he is as self aware as he appears.

So the first narrative is something that is a fact because we see it time and time again. The 2nd narrative is a what if, with a lot of unsubstantiated things such as the height issue which while we can guess we really don't know. I could also argue with some fact to support it that he has not adapted the offense to Wilson at all, except for latter 2015. Which brings us the point in latter 2015 we saw an offense that was explosive, fast, we saw slants, we saw it all. That was because we had to, with no run game. As soon as PC could he went back to his run at all cost offense which is not built for Wilson and in fact, is basically the same offense he ran with Tjack, and in college. In fact, if he had really adapted to Wilson we would have an oline that has pass blockers as well, instead, every oline are known as run blockers. We have seen Wilson do well in PC offense and in the 2015 offense which was more like a real NFL passing offense. So narrative 2 is a very unlikely What if, with most fo the facts supporting the first narrative.

Not what iff if you watched the damn games over the years the changes made are apparent, also if you look at the history of players changing teams who dissapear in other systems it is also not what if. Wilson may leave and make all you naysayers and negative Nancy's happy as shit in a warm pot, kind of like When Hass went to the Colts and we had Whitehurst and then TJack then Flynn as our next QB's those all made a huge impact, how could we have let them all go or replace them.


Ask Sweezy how glorious his time in Tampa was, or Maxwell in Philly.


I am sure we could go get Jake Browning, he will probably fall to the 3rd or 4th round and he won at UW and would be cheap to satisfy all of you wanting to move on from Wilson.

 

[John63]

If I am Wilson's agent, I save this game as an example to Wilson that he might get some 4th quarter heroics but under Pete he is never going to win big games in the playoffs - because he is very rarely going to get the opportunity.

Wilson is probably a better QB than his record in the playoffs indicate.

But he is often put in difficult situations to get out of, or not given the chance in the first place.

Wilson with a team that used him as their lead horse, would probably go a lot farther.

The thing Pete forgets is that while that blueprint works during the regular season - you are facing bad opponents in at least half your game. The top teams in the playoffs cannot just be beaten by an 'out-athlete the other guy' strategy unless you are loaded with HOF players (like we were). But they can be beaten by a great QB that gets hot at the right time, this is why everyone was so worried about guys like Aaron Rodgers making the playoffs.

As they said, all you have to do is make the playoffs. But not if you won't use your QB.

Not using Wilson and running the ball repeatedly (with freaking Mike Davis?) in the 2nd half is the equivalent of trying to do a sacrifice bunt with Ken Griffey Jr. It might work, but it robs you of a hell of a lot of upside.

I still think Wilson does not extend, and reasons like this are why. He could go to a loaded team and carry them - to become a hero. But he is criminally underused here. Either the HC does not trust him, or the HC is old and tired clinging to an old and tired philosophy that won't work against the better defenses in the playoffs.

The narrative of that game after the game is that Pete failed Wilson by failing to use him. We will see if Wilson or his agent ends up bothered later because of it. I know if I knew the guy I would be telling him that his coaches let him down on this one. I imagine the people that know him now are saying the same thing as the media is saying right now.

Getting beat outright is one thing but we were ridiculously conservative with a freaking 4 point lead in a playoff game. We didn't even get a sense of urgency until it was far too late because we played that game as if we expected the defense not to give up scores. Average defenses get scored on, that is why you need to score points in all 4 quarters.

Thats one narritive, another is one where they adapted the offense to his skill set, he still needs some pieces to exploit aspects like a big target. His height limits his quick throws on quick slants, they roll him out and allow hom to use his legs to make plays here, many others would not and in fact still frown on the mobile QB. You want numbers 5000 passing yards etc, thats not going to happen with Wilson regularly. Pete tries to use the skill sets of his players and puts them in a position of what the do best, Wilson is given that. Many Coaches want a player to adapt to what they want which may not be what that player does well.


Wilson is in a situation that works with his skill set, you may be able to send him to Oakland / Miami / Tampa Bay / Buffalo / Arizona / New York Jets and or Giants . Seems those teams have had a lot of QB turn over and or have not been able to have a QB that transcends to the top of the list of the league. This is while they have turned over Head Coaches, OC's and a truck load of players. You have to look at how they run their organzations and who dictates what to be consistenly having problems. Sending a player like Wilson to be a savior will likely continue that level of futility and just make him the new Scapegoat. I think Wilson knows this as well if he is as self aware as he appears.

So the first narrative is something that is a fact because we see it time and time again. The 2nd narrative is a what if, with a lot of unsubstantiated things such as the height issue which while we can guess we really don't know. I could also argue with some fact to support it that he has not adapted the offense to Wilson at all, except for latter 2015. Which brings us the point in latter 2015 we saw an offense that was explosive, fast, we saw slants, we saw it all. That was because we had to, with no run game. As soon as PC could he went back to his run at all cost offense which is not built for Wilson and in fact, is basically the same offense he ran with Tjack, and in college. In fact, if he had really adapted to Wilson we would have an oline that has pass blockers as well, instead, every oline are known as run blockers. We have seen Wilson do well in PC offense and in the 2015 offense which was more like a real NFL passing offense. So narrative 2 is a very unlikely What if, with most fo the facts supporting the first narrative.

Not what iff if you watched the damn games over the years the changes made are apparent, also if you look at the history of players changing teams who dissapear in other systems it is also not what if. Wilson may leave and make all you naysayers and negative Nancy's happy as shit in a warm pot, kind of like When Hass went to the Colts and we had Whitehurst and then TJack then Flynn as our next QB's those all made a huge impact, how could we have let them all go or replace them.


Ask Sweezy how glorious his time in Tampa was, or Maxwell in Philly.


I am sure we could go get Jake Browning, he will probably fall to the 3rd or 4th round and he won at UW and would be cheap to satisfy all of you wanting to move on from Wilson.

#1 I never said I want to move on, I have said it makes no sense to pay a guy 30 mil to run this offense, and I also said, however, you need a QB like Wilson for this offense to work. And remember I am a huge Wilson fan amongst others. As to the rest, we will have to agree to disagree, I have watched all the game even back with Tjack, most of it is the same, They may have tweaked some things but 70% or more is the same. However again we can agree to disagree

 

[chris98251]

Thats one narritive, another is one where they adapted the offense to his skill set, he still needs some pieces to exploit aspects like a big target. His height limits his quick throws on quick slants, they roll him out and allow hom to use his legs to make plays here, many others would not and in fact still frown on the mobile QB. You want numbers 5000 passing yards etc, thats not going to happen with Wilson regularly. Pete tries to use the skill sets of his players and puts them in a position of what the do best, Wilson is given that. Many Coaches want a player to adapt to what they want which may not be what that player does well.


Wilson is in a situation that works with his skill set, you may be able to send him to Oakland / Miami / Tampa Bay / Buffalo / Arizona / New York Jets and or Giants . Seems those teams have had a lot of QB turn over and or have not been able to have a QB that transcends to the top of the list of the league. This is while they have turned over Head Coaches, OC's and a truck load of players. You have to look at how they run their organzations and who dictates what to be consistenly having problems. Sending a player like Wilson to be a savior will likely continue that level of futility and just make him the new Scapegoat. I think Wilson knows this as well if he is as self aware as he appears.

So the first narrative is something that is a fact because we see it time and time again. The 2nd narrative is a what if, with a lot of unsubstantiated things such as the height issue which while we can guess we really don't know. I could also argue with some fact to support it that he has not adapted the offense to Wilson at all, except for latter 2015. Which brings us the point in latter 2015 we saw an offense that was explosive, fast, we saw slants, we saw it all. That was because we had to, with no run game. As soon as PC could he went back to his run at all cost offense which is not built for Wilson and in fact, is basically the same offense he ran with Tjack, and in college. In fact, if he had really adapted to Wilson we would have an oline that has pass blockers as well, instead, every oline are known as run blockers. We have seen Wilson do well in PC offense and in the 2015 offense which was more like a real NFL passing offense. So narrative 2 is a very unlikely What if, with most fo the facts supporting the first narrative.

Not what iff if you watched the damn games over the years the changes made are apparent, also if you look at the history of players changing teams who dissapear in other systems it is also not what if. Wilson may leave and make all you naysayers and negative Nancy's happy as shit in a warm pot, kind of like When Hass went to the Colts and we had Whitehurst and then TJack then Flynn as our next QB's those all made a huge impact, how could we have let them all go or replace them.


Ask Sweezy how glorious his time in Tampa was, or Maxwell in Philly.


I am sure we could go get Jake Browning, he will probably fall to the 3rd or 4th round and he won at UW and would be cheap to satisfy all of you wanting to move on from Wilson.

#1 I never said I want to move on, I have said it makes no sense to pay a guy 30 mil to run this offense, and I also said, however, you need a QB like Wilson for this offense to work. And remember I am a huge Wilson fan amongst others. As to the rest, we will have to agree to disagree, I have watched all the game even back with Tjack, most of it is the same, They may have tweaked some things but 70% or more is the same. However again we can agree to disagree

Market says 30 million is what he will get paid, but you state no sense to pay a QB 30 million to use him the way we use Wilson, by default you are saying move on.

 

[John63]

So the first narrative is something that is a fact because we see it time and time again. The 2nd narrative is a what if, with a lot of unsubstantiated things such as the height issue which while we can guess we really don't know. I could also argue with some fact to support it that he has not adapted the offense to Wilson at all, except for latter 2015. Which brings us the point in latter 2015 we saw an offense that was explosive, fast, we saw slants, we saw it all. That was because we had to, with no run game. As soon as PC could he went back to his run at all cost offense which is not built for Wilson and in fact, is basically the same offense he ran with Tjack, and in college. In fact, if he had really adapted to Wilson we would have an oline that has pass blockers as well, instead, every oline are known as run blockers. We have seen Wilson do well in PC offense and in the 2015 offense which was more like a real NFL passing offense. So narrative 2 is a very unlikely What if, with most fo the facts supporting the first narrative.

Not what iff if you watched the damn games over the years the changes made are apparent, also if you look at the history of players changing teams who dissapear in other systems it is also not what if. Wilson may leave and make all you naysayers and negative Nancy's happy as shit in a warm pot, kind of like When Hass went to the Colts and we had Whitehurst and then TJack then Flynn as our next QB's those all made a huge impact, how could we have let them all go or replace them.


Ask Sweezy how glorious his time in Tampa was, or Maxwell in Philly.


I am sure we could go get Jake Browning, he will probably fall to the 3rd or 4th round and he won at UW and would be cheap to satisfy all of you wanting to move on from Wilson.

#1 I never said I want to move on, I have said it makes no sense to pay a guy 30 mil to run this offense, and I also said, however, you need a QB like Wilson for this offense to work. And remember I am a huge Wilson fan amongst others. As to the rest, we will have to agree to disagree, I have watched all the game even back with Tjack, most of it is the same, They may have tweaked some things but 70% or more is the same. However again we can agree to disagree

Market says 30 million is what he will get paid, but you state no sense to pay a QB 30 million to use him the way we use Wilson, by default you are saying move on.

What I am saying is, we are in a quandary. On one hand makes no sense to pay a guy 30 mil to throw it 25 times and be forgotten times, on the other hand, we need a QB of his level (Elite) to make this offense go in a way that has a chance of the playoffs and SB. What I want is a compromise. Let's open up the reigns, open up the passing attack with some modern stuff, Try to run 60 plays with a 30-30 split. Build leads early with the pass, and then run them out in the 4th. No reason we cant have a top run game and passing game other teams do it.

 

[Sports Hernia]

The problem with yesterday’s game was if plan A failed, they were not mentally prepared to go to plan B until it was too late.

 

[chris98251]

Scotty is a student of Coryell, that is not conservative, he is also the son of a really conservative Coach in Marty, Pete falls into the Marty ball camp on almost everything. Why he adjusts to opening things up late that have a higher risk. I think the Marty control factor also plays into Schottys demeanor about pushing things against the Coaches desires in a game plan.

 

[sdog1981]

Scotty is a student of Coryell, that is not conservative, he is also the son of a really conservative Coach in Marty, Pete falls into the Marty ball camp on almost everything. Why he adjusts to opening things up late that have a higher risk. I think the Marty control factor also plays into Schottys demeanor about pushing things against the Coaches desires in a game plan.

That goes right back to my original question. Is it worth it to pay an elite QB 15% of the cap to have them only throw the ball 25 times. If this is the schem they are going to run do you need an elite QB to run it? Will an above average QB get the same results for a lower cap number?

 

[Tical21]

I'm not sure all this overreaction is necessary. We need to run the ball to win. If we can't, we're going to have a hard time winning. We needed to get more out of the running game. I'm not convinced the outcome is any different if we pass more. When we pass a lot, we are usually in trouble. I don't think our offensive line could've held up against their pass rush if we're in passing mode.

While I was watching the game, I wasn't thinking we need to pass more. I was thinking we need to find ways to get more out of the ground game. Russ needed to keep it on the RO sooner and more frequently than he usually does. We may have needed more Penny. If Dickson hits that pin block, the -7 yard run was about to be a huge play.

We need to run to win. They shut down the run, we lost. I don't think opening up the offense was going to be the cure-all that many are proclaiming.

 

[John63]

I'm not sure all this overreaction is necessary. We need to run the ball to win. If we can't, we're going to have a hard time winning. We needed to get more out of the running game. I'm not convinced the outcome is any different if we pass more. When we pass a lot, we are usually in trouble. I don't think our offensive line could've held up against their pass rush if we're in passing mode.

While I was watching the game, I wasn't thinking we need to pass more. I was thinking we need to find ways to get more out of the ground game. Russ needed to keep it on the RO sooner and more frequently than he usually does. We may have needed more Penny. If Dickson hits that pin block, the -7 yard run was about to be a huge play.

We need to run to win. They shut down the run, we lost. I don't think opening up the offense was going to be the cure-all that many are proclaiming.

Okay so let me get this right, we were not able to run it, but when we did pass we moved the ball so we should go back to running it only. It was obvious we were not going to win running it, so we needed to try something especially something that had proven it worked. I am not saying abandon the run, but maybe pass a little to get them to back off and then try running. We ran into this problem in the Carolina game, we went to more passing and that opened up the running and we won and even had a decent running game. But early on no go. FYI we can pass to win also we have done it many times.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Dallas D did something that very few could do, they shut down our running game. They clearly needed to let Russ take over way earlier. They were going to be able to get some work done w/the passing game, and that was obvious in the 2nd half.

 

[Tical21]

Guys, hello! We had the lead in the 4th quarter. We got pressured on our first 3 third downs and punted. Let's see more of that! Woohooo! We were right there. When exactly did you want to abandon the run? If the best tackler on the planet doesn't miss a tackle, we probably win. And if Carson ends the game with 8 carries, we are all burning Schotty on the stake.

 

[Uncle Si]

Guys, hello! We had the lead in the 4th quarter. We got pressured on our first 3 third downs and punted. Let's see more of that! Woohooo! We were right there. When exactly did you want to abandon the run? If the best tackler on the planet doesn't miss a tackle, we probably win. And if Carson ends the game with 8 carries, we are all burning Schotty on the stake.

This is right up your alley though.

Sure the game was there to be won. But now that it wasnt, the very real dilemma of whether or not the OC/HC philosophy and the QBs skillset are a good match with a contract coming up is the question.

One youve asked a lot.

Where is the balance

 

[Tical21]

Guys, hello! We had the lead in the 4th quarter. We got pressured on our first 3 third downs and punted. Let's see more of that! Woohooo! We were right there. When exactly did you want to abandon the run? If the best tackler on the planet doesn't miss a tackle, we probably win. And if Carson ends the game with 8 carries, we are all burning Schotty on the stake.

This is right up your alley though.

Sure the game was there to be won. But now that it wasnt, the very real dilemma of whether or not the OC/HC philosophy and the QBs skillset are a good match with a contract coming up is the question.

One youve asked a lot.

Where is the balance

Good point. I think they work well, since Russ is so great with the deep ball off play-action. It probably was a better fit when he was faster. But the economics of the qb position and our qb's job description make it an interesting conversation for sure. They're gonna pay him. Not sure it is really worth debating at length.

 

[Ozzy]

I hate the extreme example as a counter argument. Yeah lets talk about 8 carries or assuming we wanted to see 50 drop backs. What was needed was a slight shift in offensive play calling. Russ admitted it, the planet is all baffled by it and even Pete admitted it post game which is the most ironic part of the whole debate. Multiple smart people around the league from ex coaches, ex executives, scouts etc have come out almost universally and thought the whole thing was bizarre.

 

[Tical21]

I hate the extreme example as a counter argument. Yeah lets talk about 8 carries or assuming we wanted to see 50 drop backs. What was needed was a slight shift in offensive play calling. Russ admitted it, the planet is all baffled by it and even Pete admitted it post game which is the most ironic part of the whole debate. Multiple smart people around the league from ex coaches, ex executives, scouts etc have come out almost universally and thought the whole thing was bizarre.

But we had the lead in the 4th quarter and were within one score until 2 minutes left. Carson didnt end with a ton of carries as it was, so abandoning earlier would have left him in the 8-10 range.


We already beat these guys while getting our run game largely shut down, 2.9 ypc.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Why not switch it up? Same crap over and over again. Run it up the gut, numerous times, and it flat out wasn't working.

 

[Tical21]

Why not switch it up? Same crap over and over again. Run it up the gut, numerous times, and it flat out wasn't working.

Because it was working well enough that we were right there. And because we went on a 10-4 run by standing firm in our commitment to the run.

 

[Ozzy]

it was working well enough? Are you serious?

We could still stand firm in our commitment to the run and pass a little more in this game. This is a point that keeps getting made that is bizarre. You're again taking the extreme as a reason to argue against it and its intellectually dishonest. So answer this....you're saying Russ AND Pete are wrong then when they both admitted they should've passed more after the fact. Is that what your saying?

Pete and Russ both agree with the sentiment and you still have guys arguing against it. This is weird.

 

[TwistedHusky]

It was working because we were playing a bunch of teams it worked on, but in the playoffs, you face better teams. You cannot be a one-dimensional team and you cannot play close to the vest.

Schotty's dad used to do this crap every year. Get to the playoffs and then play a ground it out, close game that assures you will lose when the other team makes big plays (and they will because your best players make the standout plays in the playoffs).

They used to call it 'Marty Ball'. Plenty of fans of teams that suffered under Schottenheimer flameouts know exactly what this is.

Weirdly, hiring garbage cast-off OC Shotty resulted in an almost perfect example of Marty Ball for those who like getting nostalgic.

The problem was that Wilson is difficult to gameplan for and is tailor made for making the kind of big plays in the playoffs that can win games. But they refused to use him, they did for a while - then took a small lead...and were completely OK with peeing away multiple offensive possessions expecting the defense to hold down the opposing team.

But you are asking Norton, a DC that has shown nothing, a guy that sucked in Oakland and had a lot of mediocrity masked by the offense this year - to hold the door closed against the good teams in the playoffs. With a mediocre to suspect secondary and with a LB group that was more a weakness than a strength.

It was an average defense trying to hold the door closed against a playoff team. With an average DC calling the shots. That was a recipe that was assured to fail. Not surprisingly, it did. Even more perplexing, you cannot play close games with no kicker. So scoring should have been a priority. Infuriatingly, we stopped playing like we were behind once we got the lead.

Pete's strategy got us 10 wins because we played a number of teams falling apart and we were able to exploit that. Parcells said you are what your record says you are, but in those 10 wins we played 4 teams that were shadows of expectations at the beginning of the year: Vikings, Packers, 49ers x 2. It was more an 8-8 caliber team in the first place.

The issue is that you could accomplish the same thing with a lesser cheaper QB, so either do that - or let your soon to be 30M QB earn that money in the playoffs. Don't go down with the bat on your freaking shoulder, which we did.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Then why the hell would you ever pay a QB 30 million per year, in a salary capped league?

Pete-ball will be around until 2021 as of today.

So lemme get this straight............we love Pete ball when we're punching the Vikings, Chiefs and other teams in the face rolling for 150-200 yards of rushing and dictating on both sides of the ball with being physical.

But when we lose, we hate Pete Ball and we're wasting Russell even though statistically he had his best year ever.

You guys need to stick to one side of the fence, I'm getting dizzy.