MLS

[JSeahawks]

Alright soccer people, give me the scouting report for portland vs Columbus.

 

[Smurf]

MLS is doubling down on roster talent, gives team another 800k in Transfer Allocation Money for the next 2 seasons, bringing the 3 year total to $1.6 Million.

The league has also given clubs $2 million to invest in home grown player contracts.

 

[SeatownJay]

MLS is doubling down on roster talent, gives team another 800k in Transfer Allocation Money for the next 2 seasons, bringing the 3 year total to $1.6 Million.

The league has also given clubs $2 million to invest in home grown player contracts.

I like the fact that the MLS is allocating more money to be spent on middle-of-the-roster players. Lack of decent depth is one of the biggest issues with a lot of teams in the league.

 

[SeatownJay]

So on the eve of another MLS season, let's have a discussion on the future of the league. I've heard over the years that the MLS will never be a top tier league until they change their schedule to match Europe, get rid of the salary cap, and institute promotion-relegation. Before any of that can happen, however, the MLS will need to ditch the single-entity structure of the league. Until that happens, nothing else is going to change. Let's say a miracle happens, though. Let's say that MLS decides to give up it's power and financial stability to let the individual league investors actually own the teams and set their own finances. Let's say that MLS gives more power to the USSF to allow for promotion & relegation between MLS, NASL, and USL. Let's say that MLS caves to international pressure and adopts the Summer to Spring schedule that is used in the majority of the other leagues. If it happens, how will it all work? I'm far from the most knowledgeable soccer fan around here, but I like to think I'm pretty smart and logical. I'd like to hear some ideas and get some debate going on how this could all be successful and let MLS take the next step toward international respectability.

To avoid this post from becoming too long, I'll make a separate one to discuss my specific thoughts on each topic, finances, schedule, & pro/rel.

 

[SeatownJay]

The biggest topic, especially with fans, is promotion/relegation. How would it work? Let's say that MLS, NASL, and USL all agree to a partnership under USSF to allow for promotion & relegation. As of current plans, by 2017 there will be 24 MLS teams, 11 NASL teams, and 31 USL teams. The majority of the USL teams will have exclusive partnerships with, or be owned outright by, MLS teams. How do you separate the leagues? One possibility is set the MLS at 20, NASL at 22, and USL at 24. But who goes where? Well, the easiest way would be to say the 20 existing MLS teams stay there, the 20 USL teams that are partnered with/owned by MLS stay in USL, the 4 teams scheduled to begin play in the MLS in 2017 or later instead start in NASL (or, in the case of Minnesota United, they stay in NASL instead of moving up), and the 7 best unaffiliated teams in USL move up to NASL. This would give you a league structure that looks like this.

MLS
Chicago Fire
Colorado Rapids
Columbus Crew SC
DC United
FC Dallas
Houston Dynamo
LA Galaxy
Montreal Impact
New England Revolution
New York City FC
New York Red Bulls
Orlando City SC
Philadelphia Union
Portland Timbers
Real Salt Lake
San Jose Earthquakes
Seattle Sounders FC
Sporting Kansas City
Toronto FC
Vancouver Whitecaps FC

NASL
Atlanta United FC
Arizona United FC
Carolina Railhawks
Colorado Springs Switchbacks FC
FC Cincinnati
FC Edmonton
Ft. Lauderdale Strikers
Harrisburg City Islanders
Indy Eleven
Jacksonville Armada FC
Los Angeles FC
Louisville City FC
Miami FC
Miami (Beckham's club)
Minnesota United FC
New York Cosmos
Orange County Blues FC
Ottawa Fury FC
Puerto Rico FC
Rayo OKC
Tampa Bay Rowdies
Tulsa Roughnecks FC

USL
Austin Aztex
Bethlehem Steel FC
Charleston Battery
Charlotte Independence
FC Montreal
LA Galaxy II
New York Red Bulls II
Oklahoma City Energy FC
Orlando City B
Pittsburgh Riverhounds
Portland Timbers 2
Real Monarchs SLC
Reno
Richmond Kickers
Rio Grande Valley FC Toros
Rochester Rhinos
Sacramento Republic FC
San Antonio
Seattle Sounders FC 2
St. Louis FC
Swope Park Rangers KC
Toronto FC II
Vancouver Whitecaps FC 2
Wilmington Hammerheads FC

Now to determine some specifics. How many teams move between MLS and NASL? How many between NASL and USL? And how to do you handle the MLS/USL partnerships? In Spain, there's a rule that an academy team can't be in the same or higher tier as their parent club. For illustration, let's say that New England Revolution finish bottom of the table and are slated for relegation to NASL. But their affiliate club, Rochester Rhinos, win the USL and qualify for promotion to NASL. If they can't be in the same tier, do the Revs stay up as the Rhinos move, or do they move down as the Rhinos stay put? These are some of things that will need to be figured out.

 

[SeatownJay]

Let's talk about schedules. If the MLS, and by association, USSF, adopt the Summer to Spring schedule how would it work? Would you start play in August and go straight through to April? Would you take a multi-week break in January like Germany does? How do you handle severe Winter weather? Which is worse, playing in Chicago in January when it's -30f with the wind, or playing in Miami in August when it's 120f with the humidity?

Another scheduling factor when combined with pro/rel (see previous post), do you stick with conferences with multiple teams coming and going each year, or do you go with a single table? Right now MLS plays 34 regular season matches. If you go to a single table with home & away matchups, that's 38 regular season games. NASL & USL would have even more since they'd have more teams.

I'm curious to hear the opinions of our soccer sages on this one.

 

[Uncle Si]

Good stuff Seatown.

I think there are many elements to the MLS set up that frankly can't be changed for the league to survive. One of them is promotion/relegation. It doesn't fit the the mission of the league or its main fan base to be honest. I think It would be very difficult for any MLS club to continue to attract large enough support to find the team should they be relegated. And same for a team promoted. And while it works elsewhere, the support of those clubs is decades (centuries in some places) older. In the end, it's far more trouble than it's worth.

The league seems to be right where it wants. It's growing. It's found a decent, comfortable niche in between its domestic competition and Euro leagues. It attracts decent enough quality to be entertaining and fans here are latching on to it. What it doesn't want is to go toe to toe with the NFL. It knows that more than likely a good portion of its fan base is rooted in NFL fans. Why make them choose?
I'm not up on things enough to know what opportunities the MLS loses by not sharing a schedule with euro leagues... But it's clear what it gains: It's own window without the NFL, summer visits from the worlds best clubs, a summer free of euro competition for its product to be showcased internationally.
It seems now the MLS has finally settled in.

 

[Seahawks1983]

Just say no to a Summer to Spring schedule. It would be awful for too many of the teams. Hot summer games in Texas can be somewhat offset by playing at night. You cannot really schedule around the cold of a place like Toronto or Minneapolis.

I would actually like to see the MLS season shortened. We have a playoff system, so there is less of a need to play as many games. Right now there are 20 teams with another 4 scheduled to enter the league before 2020.

Once you get to 24 teams, break it up into 4 divisions of 6 teams each.

12 games against the opposite conference, alternate home and away every year.

6 games against your inter conference division, alternate home and away every year.

10 games against your division, one home, one away each year.

That gives you a 28 game schedule, which would alleviate fixture congestion for CCL and USOC teams.

It also gives you the flexibility to expand the playoffs if you want, without playing until Christmas. MLS Cup should be played the weekend before Thanksgiving, every year.

If you really wanted to have more games, you could do a 30 game schedule, with an additional game played against the teams in the opposite conference divisions that finished in the same place as you the prior season (similar to how the NFL does it.)

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Si did a great job of stating just about all of my opinions.

The fact is the MLS IS growing and continuing to remain a profitable league that's now able to attract talent from all over the world, young and old.

I'm just fine with not being "one of the top leagues" in the world. Because that doesn't necessarily equate to a more enjoyable experience for us fans. All it means is you better hope you're one of the top 4-5 clubs or else you're screwed.

I can take my entire family to a match for less than $100, and have a FANTASTIC time............in the summer.......wearing shorts and my Sounders kit............and my wife and kids won't complain.

btw, in order to take the next step and compete with the top leagues, it's not about ANY of the things you mentioned. It's not about relegating, the schedule or doing away with the salary cap. It's about TV revenue, and that's not a strong point of the MLS right now. Ratings are small, and I don't think doing any or all of the things you suggested to improve the league would help ratings. In fact they'd hurt ratings competing for the casual sports fan with the NFL, NBA and NHL.

 

[Seahawks1983]

Bingo on the TV ratings comment. I don't have a clue how you begin to resolve that problem.

 

[knownone]

MLS has a built in audience that is largely untapped. EPL and Liga MX get great ratings, if MLS can find away to tap into that market we'd start to see MLS as a top league as far as TV ratings are concerned. I think the ratings will come, it takes time to grow viewership on a national level. MLS unfortunately lacks the history and prestige to interest the casual soccer fan on a national level, that is obviously a major appeal to a lot of EPL fans, there is rich history everywhere, that makes even a rivalry between Tottenham and West Ham feel like must watch television. Now we do see rivalries like the Galaxy vs Sounders getting 5x the viewers of normal primetime games which show that their is an audience if the product is there.

 

[Uncle Si]

MLS has a built in audience that is largely untapped. EPL and Liga MX get great ratings, if MLS can find away to tap into that market we'd start to see MLS as a top league as far as TV ratings are concerned. I think the ratings will come, it takes time to grow viewership on a national level. MLS unfortunately lacks the history and prestige to interest the casual soccer fan on a national level, that is obviously a major appeal to a lot of EPL fans, there is rich history everywhere, that makes even a rivalry between Tottenham and West Ham feel like must watch television. Now we do see rivalries like the Galaxy vs Sounders getting 5x the viewers of normal primetime games which show that their is an audience if the product is there.

I disagree here. The MLS will never grab a hold of the TV market in a significant manner, for a variety of reasons. And I think the MLS is fine with that.

The EPL grabs a lions share of the TV ratings for three reasons: a. the drama. b. the players. c. the atmosphere. It's not the best league in terms of overall talent, but it is the most competitive. The atmosphere at each game is palpable, and while the teams that US fans support have centuries old followings to get behind, it is the support in those stadiums that fans are drawn to. Most importantly, games are played, well, in England. US fans can't just "go" to a Spurs match.

MLS support is founded on two things: a love for soccer, and the in stadium experience. Major supporters want to encapsulate even an inkling of what they see on NBC live from September-May at Anfield, White Hart Lane, etc. They want the atmosphere. They want to sing songs, hiss at opponents and go crazy with 100s of others when a goal is scored. The product on the field is almost secondary. For an MLS fan... they want to BE at the game. Sure they will watch the team away, but its not MUST SEE TV. Every EPL game is for fans of teams there because that is the only way to enjoy the team.

That's my .02 cents. TV isn't, and shouldn't, be a major focus of the MLS. The fan experience is what matters. Give the fans a reason to come to the game. Give them an opportunity to have fun while they are there.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

MLS has a built in audience that is largely untapped. EPL and Liga MX get great ratings, if MLS can find away to tap into that market we'd start to see MLS as a top league as far as TV ratings are concerned. I think the ratings will come, it takes time to grow viewership on a national level. MLS unfortunately lacks the history and prestige to interest the casual soccer fan on a national level, that is obviously a major appeal to a lot of EPL fans, there is rich history everywhere, that makes even a rivalry between Tottenham and West Ham feel like must watch television. Now we do see rivalries like the Galaxy vs Sounders getting 5x the viewers of normal primetime games which show that their is an audience if the product is there.

Completely incorrect. EPL and other world soccer fans won't tune into MLS for one simple reason - it's shite. Shite product, shite players, shite teams, shite everything. the only people who are/will be really interested in MLS are the nouveau American soccer fans who either live close to a team or just don't know any better. Like Smurf. Fans of real soccer will still choose to watch another league (Premier League, La Liga, Bundesliga, etc.), or just another program altogether. MLS is bollocks.

Bingo.

It's the same reason we don't watch CFL games or the WNBA..............it's an inferior product.

Hell, I love the Sounders and I don't watch other MLS matches. Just not a good enough product with the dynamic players to entice me to watch Columbus play Houston on a Wednesday night.

BUT if the MLS continues to grow and attract more and more talent? Then yes you'll slowly start to see the ratings creep up. Right now though it's a very small niche league with very small regionally loyal fans.

 

[Uncle Si]

MLS has a built in audience that is largely untapped. EPL and Liga MX get great ratings, if MLS can find away to tap into that market we'd start to see MLS as a top league as far as TV ratings are concerned. I think the ratings will come, it takes time to grow viewership on a national level. MLS unfortunately lacks the history and prestige to interest the casual soccer fan on a national level, that is obviously a major appeal to a lot of EPL fans, there is rich history everywhere, that makes even a rivalry between Tottenham and West Ham feel like must watch television. Now we do see rivalries like the Galaxy vs Sounders getting 5x the viewers of normal primetime games which show that their is an audience if the product is there.

Completely incorrect. EPL and other world soccer fans won't tune into MLS for one simple reason - it's shite. Shite product, shite players, shite teams, shite everything. the only people who are/will be really interested in MLS are the nouveau American soccer fans who either live close to a team or just don't know any better. Like Smurf. Fans of real soccer will still choose to watch another league (Premier League, La Liga, Bundesliga, etc.), or just another program altogether. MLS is bollocks.

Oh pipe down you...


Euro fans are not going to flock to their tvs to watch summer MLS soccer. I do agree. A small contingency may, but not enough to make a difference (unless EPL teams start loaning out their younger players to MLS teams more often, something I'd like to see more of).

The issue here is whether American fans of the EPL and other international leagues will flock to their TVs to watch MLS games. And again, i don't think they ever will, and I don't think the MLS expects it. TV market is not a priority for MLS teams. They want fans at their games.

The inferior product doesn't much matter, really. If Spurs and West Ham suddenly packed up and moved to the MLS there would not be a sudden rush to the TVs to watch them play Real Salt Lake at White Heart Lane stadium in Tulsa, OK. Its about atmosphere. Every EPL marketing campaign specifically addresses it. Seattle's team gets a bit more viewership because fans are drawn to the pageantry of the game (as contrived as it may be).

If product was the only reason to watch the games, then we'd all be La Liga fans. But the EPL is where the drama is. It's where the fans are ecstatic when a big goal is scored, the players are celebrating with passion for a 60th minute goal on a Tuesday night in early February (damn you Vardy). It's the most relatable TV viewing American fans have.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

If product was the only reason to watch the games, then we'd all be La Liga fans. But the EPL is where the drama is. It's where the fans are ecstatic when a big goal is scored, the players are celebrating with passion for a 60th minute goal on a Tuesday night in early February (damn you Vardy). It's the most relatable TV viewing American fans have.

I personally like the physical style of the EPL over La Liga, or even Serie A..........and far less diving and "gamesmanship" nonsense.

Also seems like you're much more likely to see a competitive match on a random Sunday morning with any of the top 10 teams playing each other because of all the fantastic rivalries that have been formed over time. The other top leagues have what? 4 maybe 5 top teams and the rest is shiite?

My only gripe about the MLS is this push for massive expansion, with new clubs every year. Seems like a bad way to water down the product even more than it already is. I get that the owners love their franchise fee revenue, but if you're trying to build a competitive league filled with stars and talent, then it makes more sense to have a condensed 16 team league full of high profile high revenue clubs, not just keep cranking out the franchises until we reach some sort of over saturation critical mass.

 

[Uncle Si]

I think the MLS expansion reflects their primary objective... they want fans AT the game... so they are bringing the game to the fans in as many cities as they can. They believe (and have so far been proven right) that people will come to their matches, as long as the NFL is not playing (or combining, drafting, etc.) regardless if its a turgid affair between Philadelphia and Houston or a rivalry match between Portland and Seattle.

Again, the product itself is not the pull. It's the drama, as you mentioned. Honestly, Liverpool vs. Stoke the other night was dire, dire football. But it was a Cup semifinal and I imagine more Americans viewed that game on-line through BeIN than the total number of TV viewers watch a weekend of MLS soccer.

I guess my point is that the MLS is not as concerned with the actual skillset of its players. Obviously they want good matches and are trying to allow the league opportunities for bringing players in. But they have resolved themselves to more of the approach the English sides had in the 50s and 60s... the next superstars of the MLS will come from the academies. Until then, you will have famous names mixing with young talent and middle class players trying to piece together something competitive enough to keep fans turning the gate.

edit: so i just watched the Liverpool-Leicester highlights (because I enjoy hitting myself in the heart).. If you haven't seen it, Vardy's goal is just a stunner. But... watch the highlight and see the reaction of the crowd. Ball is in flight and you can see the rise and flow of the supporters almost pushing downward to meet the ball in the net. As soon as it pillows comfortably their is a genuine roar and retraction like wave from the people as they pull back and throw their arms out. You don't get that anywhere else on a consistent basis (in any sport, really).

That's what the MLS is trying to capture. I've seen plenty of wonder strikes in the MLS. But you don't get that reaction. And that's just wee Leicester.

 

[Glasgow Seahawk]

MLS has a built in audience that is largely untapped. EPL and Liga MX get great ratings, if MLS can find away to tap into that market we'd start to see MLS as a top league as far as TV ratings are concerned. I think the ratings will come, it takes time to grow viewership on a national level. MLS unfortunately lacks the history and prestige to interest the casual soccer fan on a national level, that is obviously a major appeal to a lot of EPL fans, there is rich history everywhere, that makes even a rivalry between Tottenham and West Ham feel like must watch television. Now we do see rivalries like the Galaxy vs Sounders getting 5x the viewers of normal primetime games which show that their is an audience if the product is there.

Completely incorrect. EPL and other world soccer fans won't tune into MLS for one simple reason - it's shite. Shite product, shite players, shite teams, shite everything. the only people who are/will be really interested in MLS are the nouveau American soccer fans who either live close to a team or just don't know any better. Like Smurf. Fans of real soccer will still choose to watch another league (Premier League, La Liga, Bundesliga, etc.), or just another program altogether. MLS is bollocks.

The bottom half of the premiership is also crap. Sunderland vs Norwich, no thanks. The EPL is the best marketed league but the product isn't all that. When was the last time an English team done anything in the CL? Until this year it was the same teams winning it- Chelsea, City or Man United. Leicester and Spurs have mixed that up a bit but i'm willing to bet City will win come seasons end.

The EPL is all hype- a lot of average players getting overpaid due to Sky tv money. The amount of advertising it gets in the US helps. I think eventually the arse will fall out of it with the amount of debt these teams have. Especially non top half teams. Bolton are effed. There's rumours if Swansea go down they are in trouble. West Ham have huge debts and if the Russian or Sheikh ever pull out or get bumped off, Chelsea and City are effed. Barcelona and Real Madrid's debts are eye watering.

MLS has the right idea with the salary cap. Although I do think it is too restrictive and over protects the smaller crap teams over the bigger ones. Would like to see the US focus on youth development and being able to attract the best young players from Mexico whilst keeping the best American talent from going abroad. Doing this may eventually shake off the retirement home image that it gets from Europe.

On an unrelated noted, what the eff is happening in China with these huge deals being signed for players?

 

[Uncle Si]

The China thing is surreal. They are essentially trying to do what the MLS is doing, but finding aging stars that are juussst a little bit younger and using astronomical fees to bring them in.

I hope Liverpool sell half their current team over there.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

The China thing is surreal. They are essentially trying to do what the MLS is doing, but finding aging stars that are juussst a little bit younger and using astronomical fees to bring them in.

I hope Liverpool sell half their current team over there.

Yeah I saw that Montero just signed a big deal to go to China.

idk, ask guys like Drogba how being in a black hole of a league with ZERO exposure selling your soul for the almighty dollar went.

At least in the MLS stars can live in the states and have all the great benefits that go along with being in metropolitan cities. China? Might as well join the witness protection program.

 

[Uncle Si]

The China thing is surreal. They are essentially trying to do what the MLS is doing, but finding aging stars that are juussst a little bit younger and using astronomical fees to bring them in.

I hope Liverpool sell half their current team over there.

Yeah I saw that Montero just signed a big deal to go to China.

idk, ask guys like Drogba how being in a black hole of a league with ZERO exposure selling your soul for the almighty dollar went.

At least in the MLS stars can live in the states and have all the great benefits that go along with being in metropolitan cities. China? Might as well join the witness protection program.

China loves its big time athletes.. Hell, Stephan Marbury has his own museum there.