MLS

[Seahawks1983]

I watch the EPL for one reason and one reason only: It is on in the morning.

I realize the top players and teams are in that league, so the product itself is entertaining. However. I have no ties to any of the clubs so I have no real vested interest.

I watch MLS, and more specifically the Sounders, because I have a vested interest in that they are the club that represents my home town. I would rather cheer for them than some team that plays in a place I have never been to, let alone lived in or been apart of.

Eurosnobs who just outright dismiss MLS because it isn't a Euro league are a huge part of the American soccer viewing public, and thus will always be an obstacle for MLS growth. But another generation or two, and the level of play along with some built tradition should help alleviate that to a degree.

 

[Uncle Si]

Euro snobs....


Anyways, estimating that the MLS will soon (or in a decade) join the ranks of top tier leagues is already under the shade of what China is doing.

The MLS level of play will rise through its academies... Or it will fall by it. Truly elite players in their prime will rarely (if ever) choose here. If the MLS wants to improve its product it will have to develop a strong youth system, develop the coaches, develop the players and then keep them.

Southampton is working on a direct plan that would benefit youth soccer greatly. I know some MLS teams are cooperating with European and South American clubs for more resources and high level education.

http://soccer.nbcsports.com/2016/02...BC Sports Soccer&utm_tags=srm[article,soccer]

The issue will first be developing the next generation of highly talented player... and then keeping them. Jordan Morris stayed. Matt Miazga, Bobby Wood, Luis Gill, Rubio Rubin, Gboly Ariyibi and Christian Pulisic did not. (And countless others, but these are young players who moved abroad recently). MLS right now is trading young talent for aging stars.

 

[Seahawks1983]

Euro snobs....


Anyways, estimating that the MLS will soon (or in a decade) join the ranks of top tier leagues is already under the shade of what China is doing.

The MLS level of play will rise through its academies... Or it will fall by it. Truly elite players in their prime will rarely (if ever) choose here. If the MLS wants to improve its product it will have to develop a strong youth system, develop the coaches, develop the players and then keep them.

Jordan Mortis stayed. Matt Miazga, Bobby Wood, Luis Gill, Rubio Rubin, Gboly Ariyibi and Christian Pulisic did not. (And countless others, but these are young players who moved abroad recently)

Top talent won't stay until the money is right. And that won't happen until the TV dollars flow.

 

[Uncle Si]

Euro snobs....


Anyways, estimating that the MLS will soon (or in a decade) join the ranks of top tier leagues is already under the shade of what China is doing.

The MLS level of play will rise through its academies... Or it will fall by it. Truly elite players in their prime will rarely (if ever) choose here. If the MLS wants to improve its product it will have to develop a strong youth system, develop the coaches, develop the players and then keep them.

Jordan Mortis stayed. Matt Miazga, Bobby Wood, Luis Gill, Rubio Rubin, Gboly Ariyibi and Christian Pulisic did not. (And countless others, but these are young players who moved abroad recently)

Top talent won't stay until the money is right. And that won't happen until the TV dollars flow.

The MLS isn't overly concerned with TV revenue. They want to build fan experience. That happens at the stadium.

And even then, the players above didn't leave the US for money. They aren't making anymore where they are than they would in the US.

And that even assumes the US develops top talent worth keeping. So far, that hasn't really been the case. You can count on one hand the top tier field players the US has developed.

The MLS will survive just fine. It won't challenge the EPL, La Liga, Bundesliga until the domestic youth program develops enough talent for the US at an international level.

 

[Seahawks1983]

Euro snobs....


Anyways, estimating that the MLS will soon (or in a decade) join the ranks of top tier leagues is already under the shade of what China is doing.

The MLS level of play will rise through its academies... Or it will fall by it. Truly elite players in their prime will rarely (if ever) choose here. If the MLS wants to improve its product it will have to develop a strong youth system, develop the coaches, develop the players and then keep them.

Jordan Mortis stayed. Matt Miazga, Bobby Wood, Luis Gill, Rubio Rubin, Gboly Ariyibi and Christian Pulisic did not. (And countless others, but these are young players who moved abroad recently)

Top talent won't stay until the money is right. And that won't happen until the TV dollars flow.

The MLS isn't overly concerned with TV revenue. They want to build fan experience. That happens at the stadium.

And even then, the players above didn't leave the US for money. They aren't making anymore where they are than they would in the US.

And that even assumes the US develops top talent worth keeping. So far, that hasn't really been the case. You can count on one hand the top tier field players the US has developed.

The MLS will survive just fine. It won't challenge the EPL, La Liga, Bundesliga until the domestic youth program develops enough talent for the US at an international level.

Thank you for repeating that. But I am pretty well tuned into to what MLS is doing. Which is why I said up thread another generation or two is needed.

At some point, TV will become part of their model. It may not be anytime soon, but it will have to happen eventually.

MLS will likely never overtake Europe, and that is fine. But the goal should be to reach a high level where your top players leave for Europe but the ones who stay behind are also entertaining players. If they can reach a level similar to what the leagues in Mexico and South America are at. that would be outstanding.

Sidebar: nobody says "the MLB" when talking about baseball. Why do so many people say "the MLS" when talking about MLS? It makes no sense grammatically.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Thank you for repeating that. But I am pretty well tuned into to what MLS is doing. Which is why I said up thread another generation or two is needed.

At some point, TV will become part of their model. It may not be anytime soon, but it will have to happen eventually.

MLS will likely never overtake Europe, and that is fine. But the goal should be to reach a high level where your top players leave for Europe but the ones who stay behind are also entertaining players. If they can reach a level similar to what the leagues in Mexico and South America are at. that would be outstanding.

Of course, and as Si said that's probably the #1 reason for MLS cranking out the expansion teams saturating every city they can trying to grow popularity grass roots style.

I've taken a lot of soccer noobs to Sounders games, and they're blown away by the experience and are now casual Sounders fans. THAT'S who MLS has to get on board..............so that in 10 years when there is a Sunday night MLS game of the week, the casual sports fan will watch.

 

[Uncle Si]

It's not a repeat. Although we are probably saying similar things. I look it at more grass roots, and probably focus on the sport itself more than the league. I don't believe two generations would change the structure, profitability or popularity of the MLS in the US under the model it is in. Nor, apparently, do the people who run it. It is very much reaching its peak. Clued in would see the model changing at base level, understanding its connectivity with the development of the youth system, changing the collegiate game, cooperating with high profile international clubs... not on its current pattern of simply expanding to cities where the game is popular and living of attendance numbers.

A generation of what, exactly, is needed? Many MLS fans think it will just follow its current model, fans will inevitably make the switch and all will be well. But the model the MLS is following has no desire of challenging European leagues for market share or players. And I don't think the MLS sees TV revenue as ever being a necessity to stability or growth, in any generation. Working with and watching the development of now two MLS teams, it is easy to see the focus and long term plans.

Top international players are not coming to the US to play in the MLS. Not 10 years from now. China and Russia are already stealing that market. Top tier US players won't stay unless they believe it helps their career, regardless of the money being offered. Jordan Morris is the exception (a rare, rare exception). And therein likes the dichotomy. You need to develop coaches and structure to develop players to make your product more viable to actually keeping the players you are developing.

That's why i find the "euro snob" comment so hypocritical. Fans choose to watch a product with more talented players and a snobs for it? Are fans of the NFL "Ameri snobs" for not watching the Canadian football league?

Both can co-exist. But the MLS is a fan experience driven sport, and will remain as such for a long, long time.

And really, the MLS shouldn't want fans sitting casually watching a Sunday night game on TV. Because regardless of the fan atmosphere, the product isn't worth watching on TV at the moment. It's just not, not casually atleast. Get off your arses and go to the matches. That's the only way they will keep a fan base invested and supporting long term. Then, maybe, a generation from now, a passionate fan base with more butts than seats to seat them in will do both.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

That's why i find the "euro snob" comment so hypocritical. Fans choose to watch a product with more talented players and a snobs for it? Are fans of the NFL "Ameri snobs" for not watching the Canadian football league? .

I think the Euro snob label comes from longtime die hard soccer fans that go out of their way to make sure you know the MLS is un-watchable to the point of having disdain for it.

It's OK if you don't like the MLS, but to crap on it making sure everyone knows it's a vastly inferior product and not worth your time is who I consider a Euro snob.

I love my Liverpool too, but I also love the sport of soccer, so I support my Sounders because I'd love for more people to enjoy what I consider a beautiful sport.

 

[Seahawks1983]

It's not a repeat. Although we are probably saying similar things. I look it at more grass roots, and probably focus on the sport itself more than the league. I don't believe two generations would change the structure, profitability or popularity of the MLS in the US under the model it is in. Nor, apparently, do the people who run it. It is very much reaching its peak. Clued in would see the model changing at base level, understanding its connectivity with the development of the youth system, changing the collegiate game, cooperating with high profile international clubs... not on its current pattern of simply expanding to cities where the game is popular and living of attendance numbers.

A generation of what, exactly, is needed? Many MLS fans think it will just follow its current model, fans will inevitably make the switch and all will be well. But the model the MLS is following has no desire of challenging European leagues for market share or players. And I don't think the MLS sees TV revenue as ever being a necessity to stability or growth, in any generation. Working with and watching the development of now two MLS teams, it is easy to see the focus and long term plans.

Top international players are not coming to the US to play in the MLS. Not 10 years from now. China and Russia are already stealing that market. Top tier US players won't stay unless they believe it helps their career, regardless of the money being offered. Jordan Morris is the exception (a rare, rare exception). And therein likes the dichotomy. You need to develop coaches and structure to develop players to make your product more viable to actually keeping the players you are developing.

That's why i find the "euro snob" comment so hypocritical. Fans choose to watch a product with more talented players and a snobs for it? Are fans of the NFL "Ameri snobs" for not watching the Canadian football league?

Both can co-exist. But the MLS is a fan experience driven sport, and will remain as such for a long, long time.

And really, the MLS shouldn't want fans sitting casually watching a Sunday night game on TV. Because regardless of the fan atmosphere, the product isn't worth watching on TV at the moment. It's just not, not casually atleast. Get off your arses and go to the matches. That's the only way they will keep a fan base invested and supporting long term. Then, maybe, a generation from now, a passionate fan base with more butts than seats to seat them in will do both.

Another generation or two of player development, in the academy systems. And another generation or two of fan development. People who are fans now have kids and pass it down, and then they have kids and pass it down. That kind of longevity helps entrench a team deeper into the community. You've seen it happen with the Mariners and Seahawks over the past 40 years. Those two just had a leg up because they are part of more popular sports.

I never once said or have ever believed that MLS is going to be a player on the open market for top Euro talent. That is a waste of time. But if we can correct our youth development issues, and start developing legitimate pro players with the occasional star, the league will benefit as a result. I firmly believe that if the league and salaries improve, more players will choose to stay home than go abroad because there will be less incentive to leave. In that ideal scenario, only the very best would benefit from moving abroad.

And no, Americans who watch the NFL are not "Amerisnobs" for not watching the CFL, for several reasons, first and foremost because it's not an American league. They have little to no connection to it.

The idea that MLS shouldn't want people watching on TV is absurd. Yes, fans in the stands are preferred and are obviously the target audience, but life has other obligations and not everyone can go to every game. That doesn't even touch on fans who live out of market. For example, if you live in eastern Washington it's impossible to get local Sounders broadcasts. The best you can do is subscribe to MLS Direct Kick and get the opponent feed in low def. People on that side of the mountains can't just get up and go to every game. (it should be noted that local Timbers broadcasts are available over here on ROOT. What a colossal screw up by the Sounders, in my opinion.)

 

[Seahawks1983]

That's why i find the "euro snob" comment so hypocritical. Fans choose to watch a product with more talented players and a snobs for it? Are fans of the NFL "Ameri snobs" for not watching the Canadian football league? .

I think the Euro snob label comes from longtime die hard soccer fans that go out of their way to make sure you know the MLS is un-watchable to the point of having disdain for it.

It's OK if you don't like the MLS, but to crap on it making sure everyone knows it's a vastly inferior product and not worth your time is who I consider a Euro snob.

I love my Liverpool too, but I also love the sport of soccer, so I support my Sounders because I'd love for more people to enjoy what I consider a beautiful sport.

Basically this. And like Si implied, trying to win these people over is a waste of time. I think everyone acknowledges that.

 

[Uncle Si]

That's why i find the "euro snob" comment so hypocritical. Fans choose to watch a product with more talented players and a snobs for it? Are fans of the NFL "Ameri snobs" for not watching the Canadian football league? .

I think the Euro snob label comes from longtime die hard soccer fans that go out of their way to make sure you know the MLS is un-watchable to the point of having disdain for it.

It's OK if you don't like the MLS, but to crap on it making sure everyone knows it's a vastly inferior product and not worth your time is who I consider a Euro snob.

I love my Liverpool too, but I also love the sport of soccer, so I support my Sounders because I'd love for more people to enjoy what I consider a beautiful sport.

I'm with you in all aspects here Sgt.

And while I may not find the product appealing at the moment, its no worse than what I'm seeing from Liverpool

 

[Uncle Si]

It's not a repeat. Although we are probably saying similar things. I look it at more grass roots, and probably focus on the sport itself more than the league. I don't believe two generations would change the structure, profitability or popularity of the MLS in the US under the model it is in. Nor, apparently, do the people who run it. It is very much reaching its peak. Clued in would see the model changing at base level, understanding its connectivity with the development of the youth system, changing the collegiate game, cooperating with high profile international clubs... not on its current pattern of simply expanding to cities where the game is popular and living of attendance numbers.

A generation of what, exactly, is needed? Many MLS fans think it will just follow its current model, fans will inevitably make the switch and all will be well. But the model the MLS is following has no desire of challenging European leagues for market share or players. And I don't think the MLS sees TV revenue as ever being a necessity to stability or growth, in any generation. Working with and watching the development of now two MLS teams, it is easy to see the focus and long term plans.

Top international players are not coming to the US to play in the MLS. Not 10 years from now. China and Russia are already stealing that market. Top tier US players won't stay unless they believe it helps their career, regardless of the money being offered. Jordan Morris is the exception (a rare, rare exception). And therein likes the dichotomy. You need to develop coaches and structure to develop players to make your product more viable to actually keeping the players you are developing.

That's why i find the "euro snob" comment so hypocritical. Fans choose to watch a product with more talented players and a snobs for it? Are fans of the NFL "Ameri snobs" for not watching the Canadian football league?

Both can co-exist. But the MLS is a fan experience driven sport, and will remain as such for a long, long time.

And really, the MLS shouldn't want fans sitting casually watching a Sunday night game on TV. Because regardless of the fan atmosphere, the product isn't worth watching on TV at the moment. It's just not, not casually atleast. Get off your arses and go to the matches. That's the only way they will keep a fan base invested and supporting long term. Then, maybe, a generation from now, a passionate fan base with more butts than seats to seat them in will do both.

Another generation or two of player development, in the academy systems. And another generation or two of fan development. People who are fans now have kids and pass it down, and then they have kids and pass it down. That kind of longevity helps entrench a team deeper into the community. You've seen it happen with the Mariners and Seahawks over the past 40 years. Those two just had a leg up because they are part of more popular sports.

I never once said or have ever believed that MLS is going to be a player on the open market for top Euro talent. That is a waste of time. But if we can correct our youth development issues, and start developing legitimate pro players with the occasional star, the league will benefit as a result. I firmly believe that if the league and salaries improve, more players will choose to stay home than go abroad because there will be less incentive to leave. In that ideal scenario, only the very best would benefit from moving abroad.

And no, Americans who watch the NFL are not "Amerisnobs" for not watching the CFL, for several reasons, first and foremost because it's not an American league. They have little to no connection to it.

The idea that MLS shouldn't want people watching on TV is absurd. Yes, fans in the stands are preferred and are obviously the target audience, but life has other obligations and not everyone can go to every game. That doesn't even touch on fans who live out of market. For example, if you live in eastern Washington it's impossible to get local Sounders broadcasts. The best you can do is subscribe to MLS Direct Kick and get the opponent feed in low def. People on that side of the mountains can't just get up and go to every game. (it should be noted that local Timbers broadcasts are available over here on ROOT. What a colossal screw up by the Sounders, in my opinion.)

But you're assuming growth of a product along a different philosophy that the league doesn't currently share. And this is where I believe TV revenue is just far from a priority. Obviously they will provide it, but not in the nature that will make a drastic impact on league revenue (as it does in England and Spain, or even MLB)

The rest I agree with. The model needs to develop around the grass roots of the sport. The issue, as I stated (and part of what I do for a living) is developing the academy-level models for MLS and USSF teams, and then trying to keep these budding stars.

Right now, despite the salaries being somewhat equal, younger players are still choosing Europe. I think that speaks volumes of the leagues.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

That's why i find the "euro snob" comment so hypocritical. Fans choose to watch a product with more talented players and a snobs for it? Are fans of the NFL "Ameri snobs" for not watching the Canadian football league? .

I think the Euro snob label comes from longtime die hard soccer fans that go out of their way to make sure you know the MLS is un-watchable to the point of having disdain for it.

It's OK if you don't like the MLS, but to crap on it making sure everyone knows it's a vastly inferior product and not worth your time is who I consider a Euro snob.

I love my Liverpool too, but I also love the sport of soccer, so I support my Sounders because I'd love for more people to enjoy what I consider a beautiful sport.

I'm with you in all aspects here Sgt.

And while I may not find the product appealing at the moment, its no worse than what I'm seeing from Liverpool

Tru7th.

 

[SeatownJay]

That's why i find the "euro snob" comment so hypocritical. Fans choose to watch a product with more talented players and a snobs for it? Are fans of the NFL "Ameri snobs" for not watching the Canadian football league? .

I think the Euro snob label comes from longtime die hard soccer fans that go out of their way to make sure you know the MLS is un-watchable to the point of having disdain for it.

It's OK if you don't like the MLS, but to crap on it making sure everyone knows it's a vastly inferior product and not worth your time is who I consider a Euro snob.

I love my Liverpool too, but I also love the sport of soccer, so I support my Sounders because I'd love for more people to enjoy what I consider a beautiful sport.

I'm with you in all aspects here Sgt.

And while I may not find the product appealing at the moment, its no worse than what I'm seeing from Liverpool

At least your English team is still in the PL.

 

[Uncle Si]

I feel for you Seatown... makes you wonder if clubs like City or Chelsea, with all that Sheikh and steel money would ever survive if the rug is pulled (I think Glasgow made a comment on that recently)

 

[Glasgow Seahawk]

Ultimately it is money. If MLS teams could afford to pay for top talent outwith their DP's players would come. Foreign players already move to arm pits of the world in China and Russia for cash and cash only. Same to an extent in England. Places like Stoke, Birmingham, Sunderland, Bournemouth are hardly great places to play and live. Don't kid yourself that it is glamorous playing for a lower EPL team and getting humped off the top teams. The majority of these towns and stadiums are sh*tholes.

Money talks. Obviously money and playing in a world city helps like New York or LA is a bonus. Less attractive places like Columbus would still get okay players if it paid the same as lower EPL teams throughout their squad.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Ultimately it is money. If MLS teams could afford to pay for top talent outwith their DP's players would come. Foreign players already move to arm pits of the world in China and Russia for cash and cash only. Same to an extent in England. Places like Stoke, Birmingham, Sunderland, Bournemouth are hardly great places to play and live. Don't kid yourself that it is glamorous playing for a lower EPL team and getting humped off the top teams. The majority of these towns and stadiums are sh*tholes.

Money talks. Obviously money and playing in a world city helps like New York or LA is a bonus. Less attractive places like Columbus would still get okay players if it paid the same as lower EPL teams throughout their squad.

Right, but unless the TV revenue is there to pay for that top talent, why would an MLS owner want a huge payroll even if it meant a better product because of better talent?

The MLS cap is where it's at because that's the revenue threshold of poor TV ratings but good season ticket and merchandise sales. I'm just guessing on this part, because the MLS and Garber have awful transparency............I assume because that's how the owners like it.

If not, why are cities and ownership groups pulling hamstrings to get clubs? Someone's making money.

 

[Seahawks1983]

Ultimately it is money. If MLS teams could afford to pay for top talent outwith their DP's players would come. Foreign players already move to arm pits of the world in China and Russia for cash and cash only. Same to an extent in England. Places like Stoke, Birmingham, Sunderland, Bournemouth are hardly great places to play and live. Don't kid yourself that it is glamorous playing for a lower EPL team and getting humped off the top teams. The majority of these towns and stadiums are sh*tholes.

Money talks. Obviously money and playing in a world city helps like New York or LA is a bonus. Less attractive places like Columbus would still get okay players if it paid the same as lower EPL teams throughout their squad.

Right, but unless the TV revenue is there to pay for that top talent, why would an MLS owner want a huge payroll even if it meant a better product because of better talent?

The MLS cap is where it's at because that's the revenue threshold of poor TV ratings but good season ticket and merchandise sales. I'm just guessing on this part, because the MLS and Garber have awful transparency............I assume because that's how the owners like it.

If not, why are cities and ownership groups pulling hamstrings to get clubs? Someone's making money.

Many MLS clubs have increased in value over the years. But how many clubs turn a profit on a year over year basis?

 

[Glasgow Seahawk]

Ultimately it is money. If MLS teams could afford to pay for top talent outwith their DP's players would come. Foreign players already move to arm pits of the world in China and Russia for cash and cash only. Same to an extent in England. Places like Stoke, Birmingham, Sunderland, Bournemouth are hardly great places to play and live. Don't kid yourself that it is glamorous playing for a lower EPL team and getting humped off the top teams. The majority of these towns and stadiums are sh*tholes.

Money talks. Obviously money and playing in a world city helps like New York or LA is a bonus. Less attractive places like Columbus would still get okay players if it paid the same as lower EPL teams throughout their squad.

Right, but unless the TV revenue is there to pay for that top talent, why would an MLS owner want a huge payroll even if it meant a better product because of better talent?

The MLS cap is where it's at because that's the revenue threshold of poor TV ratings but good season ticket and merchandise sales. I'm just guessing on this part, because the MLS and Garber have awful transparency............I assume because that's how the owners like it.

If not, why are cities and ownership groups pulling hamstrings to get clubs? Someone's making money.

Agreed but you have to wonder how sustainable tv money is in the next 20 years, especially with cable cutters.

 

[knownone]

MLS has a built in audience that is largely untapped. EPL and Liga MX get great ratings, if MLS can find away to tap into that market we'd start to see MLS as a top league as far as TV ratings are concerned. I think the ratings will come, it takes time to grow viewership on a national level. MLS unfortunately lacks the history and prestige to interest the casual soccer fan on a national level, that is obviously a major appeal to a lot of EPL fans, there is rich history everywhere, that makes even a rivalry between Tottenham and West Ham feel like must watch television. Now we do see rivalries like the Galaxy vs Sounders getting 5x the viewers of normal primetime games which show that their is an audience if the product is there.

I disagree here. The MLS will never grab a hold of the TV market in a significant manner, for a variety of reasons. And I think the MLS is fine with that.

The EPL grabs a lions share of the TV ratings for three reasons: a. the drama. b. the players. c. the atmosphere. It's not the best league in terms of overall talent, but it is the most competitive. The atmosphere at each game is palpable, and while the teams that US fans support have centuries old followings to get behind, it is the support in those stadiums that fans are drawn to. Most importantly, games are played, well, in England. US fans can't just "go" to a Spurs match.

MLS support is founded on two things: a love for soccer, and the in stadium experience. Major supporters want to encapsulate even an inkling of what they see on NBC live from September-May at Anfield, White Hart Lane, etc. They want the atmosphere. They want to sing songs, hiss at opponents and go crazy with 100s of others when a goal is scored. The product on the field is almost secondary. For an MLS fan... they want to BE at the game. Sure they will watch the team away, but its not MUST SEE TV. Every EPL game is for fans of teams there because that is the only way to enjoy the team.

That's my .02 cents. TV isn't, and shouldn't, be a major focus of the MLS. The fan experience is what matters. Give the fans a reason to come to the game. Give them an opportunity to have fun while they are there.

I'm 100% in agreement with you, and I hope I didn't imply otherwise, I was trying to convey a lot what you said and must have missed the mark.

I think MLS has a long way to go to even come close to the drama and prestige of the EPL, but I do view the Euro snobs, Liga MX fans, hell football fans in general as potential MLS fans. In my mind from a business perspective that is the biggest challenge for MLS over the next 10-20 years, maybe not the most important, but definitely the most challenging.