MNF - Patriots @ Panthers

Polaris

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dontbelikethat":36ne4t9j said:
Because it's still breaking the rules and not playing by the game. Like someone said in the other thread, calls should be either black or white (purpose of the uniform colors), and when you start getting into that gray area, it defies the purpose of the rules. These type of situations (what you call hail mary) is when rules should be the most important, that the other team beats you by beating you, not by cheating and then getting away with it cause cheating is apparently okay during this time.

Please. Be both know that sounds very nice in theory, but that's not how the game is played in practice and it never has been. That's not true in the just the NFL but in all levels of Football and for that matter in all levels of basketball as well (officials will swallow the whistle during the last thirty seconds of a game).

Everyone that plays the game (and officiates it) knows this. Heck the replacement officials last year after the Green Bay flat out told us that the NFL officiating office specifically instructed them not to call contact type penalties in this exact situation.
 

dontbelikethat

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Polaris":3rkw3x2t said:
I grant that this is the unofficial reason, but the official reason (which is a judgement call) is at least plausible enough to hold water.

IMHO the Backjudge tried to save the game for Prince Brady.

The PI is arguable, but there was still blatant defensive holding. You could say the back judge tried to save it for Brady, but in my opinion, all the refs screwed up by not calling that holding call.
 

Polaris

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dontbelikethat":2aqgbh7q said:
Polaris":2aqgbh7q said:
I grant that this is the unofficial reason, but the official reason (which is a judgement call) is at least plausible enough to hold water.

IMHO the Backjudge tried to save the game for Prince Brady.

The PI is arguable, but there was still blatant defensive holding. You could say the back judge tried to save it for Brady, but in my opinion, all the refs screwed up by not calling that holding call.

The flag was not for holding. It was for DPI.
 

ClumsyLurk

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Polaris":10erdmu8 said:
ClumsyLurk":10erdmu8 said:
Polaris":10erdmu8 said:
dontbelikethat":10erdmu8 said:
His reasoning to take back the flag for PI is arguable. But how do you defend the blatant defensive holding? Because there's an unwritten rule that you don't throw penalties when it's the last play and the game's on the line? If that's the case, tell the players to just jam and grab every jersey of the opposing team trying to catch the ball when they're lobbing it, cause that makes sense and is fair. I understand this is how it is, and it's goona be like this whether anyone likes it or not, but I'm not goona defend it and say it's right.

Why not? Hail Mary situations occure a maximum of two times a game, and only under certain circumstances. These happen often enough that everyone in football (at all levels) knows both on the playing and officiating sides that a flag is not supposed to be thrown in such cases and YES that means you can claw, bite, scratch, and even tackle (like pretty much every other Hail Mary situation for the past several decades) without fear.

As long as everyone knows this, then there is no whining coming from anyone.
Just going to go ahead and disagree with this. You can't bear hug people and pull them off routes. This was not a floating 40 yard hail mary.

It was a Hail Mary. Flags for contact are not supposed to be thrown on a Hail Mary and the head official knew it.

I grant that this is the unofficial reason, but the official reason (which is a judgement call) is at least plausible enough to hold water.

IMHO the Backjudge tried to save the game for Prince Brady.
Let me try.

Just going to go ahead and disagree with this. You can't bear hug people and pull them off routes. This was not a floating 40 yard hail mary.
 

dontbelikethat

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Polaris":1lbxd1di said:
dontbelikethat":1lbxd1di said:
Because it's still breaking the rules and not playing by the game. Like someone said in the other thread, calls should be either black or white (purpose of the uniform colors), and when you start getting into that gray area, it defies the purpose of the rules. These type of situations (what you call hail mary) is when rules should be the most important, that the other team beats you by beating you, not by cheating and then getting away with it cause cheating is apparently okay during this time.

Please. Be both know that sounds very nice in theory, but that's not how the game is played in practice and it never has been. That's not true in the just the NFL but in all levels of Football and for that matter in all levels of basketball as well (officials will swallow the whistle during the last thirty seconds of a game).

Everyone that plays the game (and officiates it) knows this. Heck the replacement officials last year after the Green Bay flat out told us that the NFL officiating office specifically instructed them not to call contact type penalties in this exact situation.

Like I said earlier:
dontbelikethat":1lbxd1di said:
I understand this is how it is, and it's goona be like this whether anyone likes it or not, but I'm not goona defend it and say it's right.
 

HawkFan72

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Polaris":124945jj said:
dontbelikethat":124945jj said:
Because it's still breaking the rules and not playing by the game. Like someone said in the other thread, calls should be either black or white (purpose of the uniform colors), and when you start getting into that gray area, it defies the purpose of the rules. These type of situations (what you call hail mary) is when rules should be the most important, that the other team beats you by beating you, not by cheating and then getting away with it cause cheating is apparently okay during this time.

Please. Be both know that sounds very nice in theory, but that's not how the game is played in practice and it never has been. That's not true in the just the NFL but in all levels of Football and for that matter in all levels of basketball as well (officials will swallow the whistle during the last thirty seconds of a game).

Everyone that plays the game (and officiates it) knows this. Heck the replacement officials last year after the Green Bay flat out told us that the NFL officiating office specifically instructed them not to call contact type penalties in this exact situation.

They were not the same situation.

Again, there is a difference between fighting for position (like in the Green Bay game) and what happened in this game. Kuechly was not fighting for position, he was just trying to interfere with Gronk.
 

dontbelikethat

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Polaris":39o1c4jf said:
dontbelikethat":39o1c4jf said:
Polaris":39o1c4jf said:
I grant that this is the unofficial reason, but the official reason (which is a judgement call) is at least plausible enough to hold water.

IMHO the Backjudge tried to save the game for Prince Brady.

The PI is arguable, but there was still blatant defensive holding. You could say the back judge tried to save it for Brady, but in my opinion, all the refs screwed up by not calling that holding call.

The flag was not for holding. It was for DPI.

How do you know? And it doesn't matter, all that means is they just missed the call on defensive holding which means the refs are still wrong.
 

ClumsyLurk

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Polaris":399ne1u8 said:
dontbelikethat":399ne1u8 said:
Because it's still breaking the rules and not playing by the game. Like someone said in the other thread, calls should be either black or white (purpose of the uniform colors), and when you start getting into that gray area, it defies the purpose of the rules. These type of situations (what you call hail mary) is when rules should be the most important, that the other team beats you by beating you, not by cheating and then getting away with it cause cheating is apparently okay during this time.

Please. Be both know that sounds very nice in theory, but that's not how the game is played in practice and it never has been. That's not true in the just the NFL but in all levels of Football and for that matter in all levels of basketball as well (officials will swallow the whistle during the last thirty seconds of a game).

Everyone that plays the game (and officiates it) knows this. Heck the replacement officials last year after the Green Bay flat out told us that the NFL officiating office specifically instructed them not to call contact type penalties in this exact situation.
Link to this please.
 

Polaris

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ClumsyLurk":2qzths5m said:
Polaris":2qzths5m said:
dontbelikethat":2qzths5m said:
Because it's still breaking the rules and not playing by the game. Like someone said in the other thread, calls should be either black or white (purpose of the uniform colors), and when you start getting into that gray area, it defies the purpose of the rules. These type of situations (what you call hail mary) is when rules should be the most important, that the other team beats you by beating you, not by cheating and then getting away with it cause cheating is apparently okay during this time.

Please. Be both know that sounds very nice in theory, but that's not how the game is played in practice and it never has been. That's not true in the just the NFL but in all levels of Football and for that matter in all levels of basketball as well (officials will swallow the whistle during the last thirty seconds of a game).

Everyone that plays the game (and officiates it) knows this. Heck the replacement officials last year after the Green Bay flat out told us that the NFL officiating office specifically instructed them not to call contact type penalties in this exact situation.
Link to this please.

It was his interview from last year. I am not going to bother to look it up, but he did say it. I also note that John Clayton essentially confirme it by looking at the data in Hail Mary situations.

Yes this WAS a Hail Mary Situation. There was time for one play. It had to be a touchdown in the endzone, and the LOS was far enough away that it had to be a pass.

That makes it a Hail Mary Situation. It is what it is.
 

Polaris

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dontbelikethat":3dmp1bf2 said:
Polaris":3dmp1bf2 said:
dontbelikethat":3dmp1bf2 said:
Polaris":3dmp1bf2 said:
I grant that this is the unofficial reason, but the official reason (which is a judgement call) is at least plausible enough to hold water.

IMHO the Backjudge tried to save the game for Prince Brady.

The PI is arguable, but there was still blatant defensive holding. You could say the back judge tried to save it for Brady, but in my opinion, all the refs screwed up by not calling that holding call.

The flag was not for holding. It was for DPI.

How do you know? And it doesn't matter, all that means is they just missed the call on defensive holding which means the refs are still wrong.

The Head Official told us this. The reason the flag was picked up was becasue the ball was deemed to be uncatchable. That only applies to DPI.
 

Polaris

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HawkFan72":3fwbiw76 said:
They were not the same situation.

Again, there is a difference between fighting for position (like in the Green Bay game) and what happened in this game. Kuechly was not fighting for position, he was just trying to interfere with Gronk.

It's exactly the same situation. You have only one play possible at the end of the game and the line of scrimmage is far enough away, that the play has to be a single pass into the endzone. The last play in the Rams Game was ALSO a Hail Mary, and no flag was thrown (and our guy WAS guilty of DPI....look at the film).

You don't throw a contact flag on this play. You don't.
 

dontbelikethat

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Polaris":3t0d7yvh said:
The Head Official told us this. The reason the flag was picked up was becasue the ball was deemed to be uncatchable. That only applies to DPI.

Pretty sure you're wrong here which is why Brady chased him down, cause he didn't know why the flag was picked up and he was mad. Gruden also said the refs handled this terribly because they didn't tell why the flag was picked up and just said the game was over. Unless I'm mistaken, that's also why the reporters kept asking Billicheck on if he talked to ref about the penalty because there was no explanation on why it was picked up/what it was. Might be my memory, but I'm pretty sure that the refs didn't say anything aside from "there is no penalty", and the ESPN rule analysis guy was the one that initially said the ball was uncatchable then everyone just rolled with what he said.
 

Polaris

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dontbelikethat":3lbj9v35 said:
Polaris":3lbj9v35 said:
The Head Official told us this. The reason the flag was picked up was becasue the ball was deemed to be uncatchable. That only applies to DPI.

Pretty sure you're wrong here which is why Brady chased him down, cause he didn't know why the flag was picked up and he was mad. Gruden also said the refs handled this terribly because they didn't tell why the flag was picked up and just said the game was over. Unless I'm mistaken, that's also why the reporters kept asking Billicheck on if he talked to ref about the penalty because there was no explanation on why it was picked up/what it was. Might be my memory, but I'm pretty sure that the refs didn't say anything aside from "there is no penalty", and the ESPN rule analysis guy was the one that initially said the ball was uncatchable then everyone just rolled with what he said.

You might be right. The impression I got was that the uncatchable exception was imposed on DPI. If that wasn't announced, then I certainly agree it should have been if that was the official reason.

Edit Addendum: Turns out I was right. The flag WAS for DPI and it was waived off as "uncatchable".
 

jkitsune

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Polaris":1frfx85p said:
ClumsyLurk":1frfx85p said:
Polaris":1frfx85p said:
dontbelikethat":1frfx85p said:
Because it's still breaking the rules and not playing by the game. Like someone said in the other thread, calls should be either black or white (purpose of the uniform colors), and when you start getting into that gray area, it defies the purpose of the rules. These type of situations (what you call hail mary) is when rules should be the most important, that the other team beats you by beating you, not by cheating and then getting away with it cause cheating is apparently okay during this time.

Please. Be both know that sounds very nice in theory, but that's not how the game is played in practice and it never has been. That's not true in the just the NFL but in all levels of Football and for that matter in all levels of basketball as well (officials will swallow the whistle during the last thirty seconds of a game).

Everyone that plays the game (and officiates it) knows this. Heck the replacement officials last year after the Green Bay flat out told us that the NFL officiating office specifically instructed them not to call contact type penalties in this exact situation.
Link to this please.

It was his interview from last year. I am not going to bother to look it up, but he did say it. I also note that John Clayton essentially confirme it by looking at the data in Hail Mary situations.

Yes this WAS a Hail Mary Situation. There was time for one play. It had to be a touchdown in the endzone, and the LOS was far enough away that it had to be a pass.

That makes it a Hail Mary Situation. It is what it is.

I don't think you actually know what a 'hail mary' is. A 15-20 yard passing play on the last play of the game does not qualify, no matter how many times you repeat yourself.
 

Polaris

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jkitsune":24wj815i said:
I don't think you actually know what a 'hail mary' is. A 15-20 yard passing play on the last play of the game does not qualify, no matter how many times you repeat yourself.

I know exactly what a Hail Mary is. THe exact distance from the endzone is irrelevant as long as the only possible play is a single passing play. The conditions are:

1. That there is only time for one play from scrimmage.
2. The conditions dictate that it has to be a passing play.

I note that the Green Bay game last year, the actual pass was only about 10 yards further out and none of us had any problems with calling it a hail mary situation.
 

Coug_Hawk08

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Polaris":19f4em6j said:
jkitsune":19f4em6j said:
I don't think you actually know what a 'hail mary' is. A 15-20 yard passing play on the last play of the game does not qualify, no matter how many times you repeat yourself.

I know exactly what a Hail Mary is. THe exact distance from the endzone is irrelevant as long as the only possible play is a single passing play. The conditions are:

1. That there is only time for one play from scrimmage.
2. The conditions dictate that it has to be a passing play.

I note that the Green Bay game last year, the actual pass was only about 10 yards further out and none of us had any problems with calling it a hail mary situation.

Did the replacement refs outline those conditions as part of the non-call traditions?
 

jkitsune

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A Hail Mary pass or Hail Mary route is a very long forward pass in American football, made in desperation with only a small chance of success, especially at or near the end of a half.
The expression goes back at least to the 1930s, being used publicly in that decade by two former members of Notre Dame's Four Horsemen, Elmer Layden and Jim Crowley. Originally meaning any sort of desperation play, a "Hail Mary" gradually came to denote a long, low-probability pass attempted at the end of a half when a team is too far from the end zone to execute a more conventional play. For more than forty years use of the term was largely confined to Notre Dame and other Catholic universities.[1]

I know this is Wikipedia, but it's also the first easily searchable Google result. You snap the ball, receivers run as far afield as they can, and you heave the ball in desperation and hope someone comes up with it. You could run a hook and ladder or any other run/lateral based trick play and try the same thing no matter the distance.

Also from the same article: "Although such plays have low percentage chance of completion, there is likely some type of long pass play in every playbook at the professional and college level. Such a "long ball" "post" pass can occur with four or five wide receivers in the singleback formation or with four or five wide receivers in the standard or shotgun formation. Generally, three or more eligible receivers are lined up on the short side of the field and all run a fly pattern. The running backs, if in the play, may be kept in to block. Sometimes the team running a post will not even have a running back in the backfield, instead choosing to use every possible eligible receiver (five of them) to run a pass route, hoping to spread out the defense and give the quarterback more passing options. The quarterback throws towards a receiver, making the decision as to which one within 2–2.5 seconds of getting the snap. The Hail Mary pass does not always need to be completed to move the ball for the offense. It may succeed in drawing a pass interference penalty on the defense (a strong possibility with so many receivers running deep routes for the defense to cover), which gives the offense the ability to run another play with better field position in all situations (since the game cannot end on a defensive penalty, even if there is no time left on the clock). In college it may not help much as pass interference is only a spot foul up to 15 yards, while in the NFL, it is a spot foul no matter where it occurs, with the ball placed at the 1 yard line if the infraction occurs in the end zone."

An 18-yard pass against a prevent defense is low probability, but by no means a 'prayer' (as in, 'hail mary.') Believing something firmly doesn't make it right.
 

dontbelikethat

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Polaris":1z0w9egw said:
dontbelikethat":1z0w9egw said:
Polaris":1z0w9egw said:
The Head Official told us this. The reason the flag was picked up was becasue the ball was deemed to be uncatchable. That only applies to DPI.

Pretty sure you're wrong here which is why Brady chased him down, cause he didn't know why the flag was picked up and he was mad. Gruden also said the refs handled this terribly because they didn't tell why the flag was picked up and just said the game was over. Unless I'm mistaken, that's also why the reporters kept asking Billicheck on if he talked to ref about the penalty because there was no explanation on why it was picked up/what it was. Might be my memory, but I'm pretty sure that the refs didn't say anything aside from "there is no penalty", and the ESPN rule analysis guy was the one that initially said the ball was uncatchable then everyone just rolled with what he said.

You might be right. The impression I got was that the uncatchable exception was imposed on DPI. If that wasn't announced, then I certainly agree it should have been if that was the official reason.

Edit Addendum: Turns out I was right. The flag WAS for DPI and it was waived off as "uncatchable".

Was saying you're wrong when you said they told us an explanation, they did so, but after the game to reporters and not when picking up the flag and to the people at the stadium. Never said you were wrong about the flag being about PI.
 

253hawk

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Gronk's hips were turned and all of his momentum was still carrying him to the back of the end zone. Given where the ball ended up, there's no level of physical ability short of Go-Go Gadget Arms or teleportation that would have allowed him to make the catch as he would have had to go through the DB who played it perfectly. Worst case, it's knocked down and game over anyway.
 

ClumsyLurk

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Polaris":2pkntovl said:
ClumsyLurk":2pkntovl said:
Polaris":2pkntovl said:
dontbelikethat":2pkntovl said:
Because it's still breaking the rules and not playing by the game. Like someone said in the other thread, calls should be either black or white (purpose of the uniform colors), and when you start getting into that gray area, it defies the purpose of the rules. These type of situations (what you call hail mary) is when rules should be the most important, that the other team beats you by beating you, not by cheating and then getting away with it cause cheating is apparently okay during this time.

Please. Be both know that sounds very nice in theory, but that's not how the game is played in practice and it never has been. That's not true in the just the NFL but in all levels of Football and for that matter in all levels of basketball as well (officials will swallow the whistle during the last thirty seconds of a game).

Everyone that plays the game (and officiates it) knows this. Heck the replacement officials last year after the Green Bay flat out told us that the NFL officiating office specifically instructed them not to call contact type penalties in this exact situation.
Link to this please.

It was his interview from last year. I am not going to bother to look it up, but he did say it. I also note that John Clayton essentially confirme it by looking at the data in Hail Mary situations.

Yes this WAS a Hail Mary Situation. There was time for one play. It had to be a touchdown in the endzone, and the LOS was far enough away that it had to be a pass.

That makes it a Hail Mary Situation. It is what it is.
pretty sure you don't know what a hail Mary is. You can run so many plays from where the pats were. Furthermore, I'll go ahead and ignore ur bold claims of officials flat out telling us they don't call PI on the last play of the game.
 

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