Pete has to go

[Seymour]

So, being a damn good coach has nothing to do with it? If players are good on the Hawks, it's luck? got it........

I don't think you do. You can be a good coach AND have a bit of luck in the draft that strikes gold. If you KNOW a player is going to be elite, you don't wait until the 5th round to pick them. That itself imposes some degree of good fortune into the picks.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Hopefully we can draft our Kamara or Antonio Brown soon, but the last 4-5 drafts haven't produced anyone nearly on that level. Russ could probably carry this team to 7+ wins a season until he retires but at some point we need to be proactive and the strategy needs to be re-evaluated. We shouldn't have to wait until the team completely falls apart and goes 4-12 like the Colts before we realize something is wrong.

We've stayed competitive by using draft capital to trade and acquire FA's, rather than use it to draft unknown college players that may or may not pan out. For the most part.

NE does the same thing, why keep all your picks and try and remain competitive or get better through the draft when you can use those picks to acquire known commodities...........you just have to do it right.

Have we done it right? Idk, that's a good question. But when you're consistently picking at the end of the first round, not sure it's prudent to continue to try and get better through the draft.

Not picking high in the first round isn't what's setting us back. The only guy on the team that was drafted with a high first was ET. We haven't been hitting on our draft picks as a whole. The only arguably elite player taken in the last 5 drafts is Britt. Richardson has been pretty solid, Lockett/Clark are decent and Reed/Pocic/Naz Jones/Griffin/Carson have shown a bit of promise, but that's really about it.

Even when factoring in the FA/trade acquisitions we're still only adding about 2 solid players a year; the rest have all been either flops or replacement-level players like Joeckel/Jordan/McDougald. That's not enough of a talent influx to balance out injuries/aging/departures. The talent evaluation has been poor and points to the concern that Pete has struggled to find talent the further away he gets from the college game.

Okung was a high pick, so was Irvin..............and you can't say haven't hit on the draft, then list 10 dudes.

Here's the fact, expecting the same hit rate on players as we had the first couple of years when Pete and John had a head start on every other team because Pete just came from college when he had all those players scouted was and still is a unrealistic expectation.

The fact is we have hit on a LOT of players, most of which you've mentioned. IMO the bigger factor is we've clung to aging vets too long that it hasn't given the new players a chance to shine, until now. It's much easier to hit on draft picks when you just churned over 80% of your roster.

Not so easy when every camp for the past five years there's only 2-3 open positions.

 

[Seymour]

Hopefully we can draft our Kamara or Antonio Brown soon, but the last 4-5 drafts haven't produced anyone nearly on that level. Russ could probably carry this team to 7+ wins a season until he retires but at some point we need to be proactive and the strategy needs to be re-evaluated. We shouldn't have to wait until the team completely falls apart and goes 4-12 like the Colts before we realize something is wrong.

We've stayed competitive by using draft capital to trade and acquire FA's, rather than use it to draft unknown college players that may or may not pan out. For the most part.

NE does the same thing, why keep all your picks and try and remain competitive or get better through the draft when you can use those picks to acquire known commodities...........you just have to do it right.

Have we done it right? Idk, that's a good question. But when you're consistently picking at the end of the first round, not sure it's prudent to continue to try and get better through the draft.

Not picking high in the first round isn't what's setting us back. The only guy on the team that was drafted with a high first was ET. We haven't been hitting on our draft picks as a whole. The only arguably elite player taken in the last 5 drafts is Britt. Richardson has been pretty solid, Lockett/Clark are decent and Reed/Pocic/Naz Jones/Griffin/Carson have shown a bit of promise, but that's really about it.

Even when factoring in the FA/trade acquisitions we're still only adding about 2 solid players a year; the rest have all been either flops or replacement-level players like Joeckel/Jordan/McDougald. That's not enough of a talent influx to balance out injuries/aging/departures. The talent evaluation has been poor and points to the concern that Pete has struggled to find talent the further away he gets from the college game.

^^^ Exellent post and I 100% agree.

 

[adeltaY]

McDougald is way better than a replacement level player. He could start on many teams.

 

[Seymour]

Hopefully we can draft our Kamara or Antonio Brown soon, but the last 4-5 drafts haven't produced anyone nearly on that level. Russ could probably carry this team to 7+ wins a season until he retires but at some point we need to be proactive and the strategy needs to be re-evaluated. We shouldn't have to wait until the team completely falls apart and goes 4-12 like the Colts before we realize something is wrong.

We've stayed competitive by using draft capital to trade and acquire FA's, rather than use it to draft unknown college players that may or may not pan out. For the most part.

NE does the same thing, why keep all your picks and try and remain competitive or get better through the draft when you can use those picks to acquire known commodities...........you just have to do it right.

Have we done it right? Idk, that's a good question. But when you're consistently picking at the end of the first round, not sure it's prudent to continue to try and get better through the draft.

Not picking high in the first round isn't what's setting us back. The only guy on the team that was drafted with a high first was ET. We haven't been hitting on our draft picks as a whole. The only arguably elite player taken in the last 5 drafts is Britt. Richardson has been pretty solid, Lockett/Clark are decent and Reed/Pocic/Naz Jones/Griffin/Carson have shown a bit of promise, but that's really about it.

Even when factoring in the FA/trade acquisitions we're still only adding about 2 solid players a year; the rest have all been either flops or replacement-level players like Joeckel/Jordan/McDougald. That's not enough of a talent influx to balance out injuries/aging/departures. The talent evaluation has been poor and points to the concern that Pete has struggled to find talent the further away he gets from the college game.

Okung was a high pick, so was Irvin..............and you can't say haven't hit on the draft, then list 10 dudes.

Here's the fact, expecting the same hit rate on players as we had the first couple of years when Pete and John had a head start on every other team because Pete just came from college when he had all those players scouted was and still is a unrealistic expectation.

The fact is we have hit on a LOT of players, most of which you've mentioned. IMO the bigger factor is we've clung to aging vets too long that it hasn't given the new players a chance to shine, until now. It's much easier to hit on draft picks when you just churned over 80% of your roster.

Not so easy when every camp for the past five years there's only 2-3 open positions.

We are talking about elite or game changing talent, not just "decent value" picks like you are pointing out. None since 2012.

 

[CamanoIslandJQ]

I guess for me, I'd much rather remain positive and be sorry when we lose than be negative and happy I predicted a loss and the need for a complete team makeover of players & coaches on .net when we lose as well as when we win.

IMO: the only reasons the Seahawks are perceived as having a "down year" in terms of wins/losses are the vast # of player injuries and the usual and annual OL problems. A big factor in the remaining games, is that they really hate being viewed as underdogs w/o any chance of winning & as a result, will play way beyond expectations in every game & hopefully win out to get HFA, if they have to go on the road for playoff victories, it's still not an impossible task, just a little harder.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

We are talking about elite or game changing talent, not just "decent value" picks like you are pointing out. None since 2012.

Name the elite talent NE's drafted in the past 5 years.

My point is you guys are barking up the wrong dysfunction tree if we're trying to figure out where our elite talent went.

It didn't go anywhere, it just got old save for the QB, MLB and free safety position (and maybe Doug).

We have the talent to win SB's, if we're pointing fingers I'd focus on coaching and scheme far more than talent, drafted or not. We've stuck to schemes that are no longer effective because the players that are on the field are no longer faster, stronger and bullying the players across the line from them.

So we must adapt and change, or die.

Doesn't mean Pete should go. But it does mean he needs to change.

 

[Seymour]

.... It's much easier to hit on draft picks when you just churned over 80% of your roster.

This statement makes absolute zero sense. You have the same number and order of draft picks whether you churn the roster or not. The talent is the same, and the chances for striking top talent are no different. The only thing that is "easier", is to know what you have sooner since they may get more reps with starters and get them earlier.

 

[Seymour]

We are talking about elite or game changing talent, not just "decent value" picks like you are pointing out. None since 2012.

Name the elite talent NE's drafted in the past 5 years.

My point is you guys are barking up the wrong dysfunction tree if we're trying to figure out where our elite talent went.

It didn't go anywhere, it just got old save for the QB, MLB and free safety position (and maybe Doug).

We have the talent to win SB's, if we're pointing fingers I'd focus on coaching and scheme far more than talent, drafted or not. We've stuck to schemes that are no longer effective because the players that are on the field are no longer faster, stronger and bullying the players across the line from them.

So we must adapt and change, or die.

Doesn't mean Pete should go. But it does mean he needs to change.

Jamie Collins and Malcolm Butler for starters.

 

[pittpnthrs]

IMO: the only reasons the Seahawks are perceived as having a "down year" in terms of wins/losses are the vast # of player injuries and the usual and annual OL problems. A big factor in the remaining games, is that they really hate being viewed as underdogs w/o any chance of winning & as a result, will play way beyond expectations in every game & hopefully win out to get HFA, if they have to go on the road for playoff victories, it's still not an impossible task, just a little harder.

We've been heading downhill the past 3 seasons though and its unreal that people have such a hard time seeing that. The teams been broken and gotten worse since the SB debacle in 2014. I knew we would never recover from that and here we are. 2015 we got annihilated by the Panthers in the 2nd round. That truly painted the picture and set the course for me. I understood what was going on after that game. Last season we played the hapless Lions at home and were whipping boys in the 2nd round. Most fans saw it coming, but some still held out hope. We got the snot beat out of us by a superior team. This season, its going to take a minor miracle to even make the playoffs. We have yet to prove we can beat the top notch teams and we squandered the easier part of the schedule earlier this season. The diehards will blame the lack of success on injuries when in truth, we were headed down the same path regardless,

As for drafting, in typical Seahawk fashion, Pete likes to get cute and it ends up biting us more than it pans out. Pass on the proven Olineman that are starting and contributing to their teams success and draft a backup center thats really not very good. Head shaker for sure. Still think our past draft success has more to do with Scot Mccloughan than Pete or John, but nobody wants to hear that.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Gonna' go kick a puppy today too? Geezus you are negative. :irishdrinkers:

 

[Sgt. Largent]

We are talking about elite or game changing talent, not just "decent value" picks like you are pointing out. None since 2012.

Name the elite talent NE's drafted in the past 5 years.

My point is you guys are barking up the wrong dysfunction tree if we're trying to figure out where our elite talent went.

It didn't go anywhere, it just got old save for the QB, MLB and free safety position (and maybe Doug).

We have the talent to win SB's, if we're pointing fingers I'd focus on coaching and scheme far more than talent, drafted or not. We've stuck to schemes that are no longer effective because the players that are on the field are no longer faster, stronger and bullying the players across the line from them.

So we must adapt and change, or die.

Doesn't mean Pete should go. But it does mean he needs to change.

Jamie Collins and Malcolm Butler for starters.

..............and that's where it ends, if you were just getting started you would have continued.

Frank Clark, P-Rich, Lockett, Reed, Britt and now possibly Griffin and Carson.

And yes it matters with draft success how much roster turnover there is, because players can't be productive if they're not on the field. Who knows if guys like Sherman, Kam, Bennett, Maxwell, Browner, KJ, etc would have even had a chance to play well if they were drafted by a team with only a couple roster spots still undecided.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Every team gets some fantastic players here and there that turn out to be very good to great.

The problem is continuity and dependability.

We shouldn't expect 5th round picks to reliably turn into stars, but we should expect a fair % of our 1st round picks to at least be above average players. That isn't happening.

And a reasonable % of players drafted in the lower rounds should at least turn into contributors.

But most important, there should not be giant yawning gaps in your roster where no productive players are available and your team has a significant exploitable weakness because of it. If this happens, the FO is not doing its job.

Our FA moves, have, for the most part been a disaster. High dollar FAs routinely suck massive amounts of cap from us but contribute little FOR YEARS. The reasons may change, but the results do not. Should we go over the Honorary Cary Williams FA Disaster Signing List? A list of FAs that cost millions or sucked draft picks off us but contributed little?

Earlier, we could cover up these problems with decent guys coming out of the draft. And we occasionally hit on guys like Frank Clark or Lockette, but we aren't getting enough dependable players from the other slots. As our players age or attrition hits, we aren't filling the gaps.

To be fair, nobody expects 'next man up' to be expected with replacing a HOF. But the FO has not produced a solid roster, for a number of reasons that were frankly avoidable.

I didn't have much optimism last year because the signs were all over the place, this year is even worse and I don't see the FO making moves that are going to really make us better. They are just making moves that try to cover up for mistakes they made earlier.

 

[semiahmoo]

IMO: the only reasons the Seahawks are perceived as having a "down year" in terms of wins/losses are the vast # of player injuries and the usual and annual OL problems. A big factor in the remaining games, is that they really hate being viewed as underdogs w/o any chance of winning & as a result, will play way beyond expectations in every game & hopefully win out to get HFA, if they have to go on the road for playoff victories, it's still not an impossible task, just a little harder.

We've been heading downhill the past 3 seasons though and its unreal that people have such a hard time seeing that. The teams been broken and gotten worse since the SB debacle in 2014. I knew we would never recover from that and here we are. 2015 we got annihilated by the Panthers in the 2nd round. That truly painted the picture and set the course for me. I understood what was going on after that game. Last season we played the hapless Lions at home and were whipping boys in the 2nd round. Most fans saw it coming, but some still held out hope. We got the snot beat out of us by a superior team. This season, its going to take a minor miracle to even make the playoffs. We have yet to prove we can beat the top notch teams and we squandered the easier part of the schedule earlier this season. The diehards will blame the lack of success on injuries when in truth, we were headed down the same path regardless,

As for drafting, in typical Seahawk fashion, Pete likes to get cute and it ends up biting us more than it pans out. Pass on the proven Olineman that are starting and contributing to their teams success and draft a backup center thats really not very good. Head shaker for sure. Still think our past draft success has more to do with Scot Mccloughan than Pete or John, but nobody wants to hear that.

Some will say you're being too negative when in fact you are almost 100% spot on. The decline of this season has been happening the last few seasons. There were those of us warning this was so while others refused to see reality.

Pete...it's time to go. Thanks for everything, but you're time here has actually been over for a while. You helped to bring us a championship and for that you will always be a revered part of Seahawks' history.

Time for a new chapter, though.

 

[hawxfreak]

Some of you don't remember the god old days of '76 to "02
Holmie and pete are the best thing to have ever happened to this franchise so just hang on and eventually Pete will retire but what I want to know is was it a big puppy or a little puppy your gonna kick
Just gotta focus the visual for that one lol! :irishdrinkers:
Pray for a new OC if anything :stirthepot:

 

[ducks41468]

We are talking about elite or game changing talent, not just "decent value" picks like you are pointing out. None since 2012.

Name the elite talent NE's drafted in the past 5 years.

My point is you guys are barking up the wrong dysfunction tree if we're trying to figure out where our elite talent went.

It didn't go anywhere, it just got old save for the QB, MLB and free safety position (and maybe Doug).

We have the talent to win SB's, if we're pointing fingers I'd focus on coaching and scheme far more than talent, drafted or not. We've stuck to schemes that are no longer effective because the players that are on the field are no longer faster, stronger and bullying the players across the line from them.

So we must adapt and change, or die.

Doesn't mean Pete should go. But it does mean he needs to change.

Jamie Collins and Malcolm Butler for starters.

It's actually quite a bit more than just those guys. Wise is starting from this year's draft. Then from last year's draft they have Thuney, Roberts, Karras, Jones (injured), and they turned Brissett into Dorsett (who hasn't done anything). From the 2015 draft they have Brown, Flowers, Richards, Mason, Andrews (UDFA), and Derby (traded for a 5th rounder). The Patriots have consistently been getting 4-5 contributors from every draft, and most of their roster and many starters have come from the last 5 drafts. They've been doing a much better job than us. We've been getting 1-2 contributors and the rest of the guys last maybe a year before they're off the roster.

 

[chris98251]

Pete did well early with the draft due to his intimate familiarity of the players in recruiting them, there are probably about 4 years of players he had knowledge of from day one here going forward, it is also about the time our success rate started to dip afterwards.

 

[TwistedHusky]

That gives Pete a lot of credit that might not even be due.

Remember Scott gave San Francisco some of their greatest players.

Then he came here and did the same thing here.

As soon as he left, we started having trouble getting the late round draft gems we were getting before.

I am not sure it had as much to do with Pete as many think.

The only offset is that I believe Scott went to the Redskins later and did not give them the same kind of impact he gave SF or Seattle, so maybe it was the combination OR it was someone that worked with Scott's team that did not make it to the Redskins but I really believe that the loss of Scott was the biggest contributor to the sudden drop in talent replacement for this team.

 

[IndyHawk]

What bothers me in this draft process is that with Allens billions that we can't just hire the best draft experts to fill our needs on a year to year basis.
Hire a team that can give us what we seek.I know nothing is perfect but if this team was hitting at say 50% and a couple FA's a year,I would be happy with that.
It always seems to be this ego stroking pissing match instead.
Scott,Pete and John ..His fault ect

 

[johnnyfever]

I am and have been very critical of the coaching staff for a couple years now, and while I believe many changes need to be made to both on the field staff as well as behind the scenes guys and gals (talent eval, scouting, film review etc), Pete and John being "let go" does seem preposterous at this point.

It is true that they both have weaknesses, but in my opinion their strengths outweigh those. Petes number 1 weakness is not holding coaches accountable and making the necessary changes the same he would and does with players.

Both statistically and to the eye test, Tom cable is not a good OL coach. I honestly don't know how he rates as an assistant head coach because I am not privy to what specific responsibilities that entails, but as an OL coach he is obviously not good.

Bevell has serious issues recognizing what talent he has available and being able to exploit that talent to it's fullest potential. He has also shown himself to be poor at evaluating weaknesses and strategizing to minimize them. Statistically, the offense isn't atrocious, but if you look at the areas they excel, it is not in designed plays but rather in superior talent making plays after Bevell's "strategic" playcall has failed and they are forced to backyard ball it to gain yards.

As far as I'm concerned, Pete has earned the right to a few bad seasons due to being stubborn on defending his lackluster staff, and if he decides to retire as an 8-8 team rather than fire his assistants, then I'll give him that.

This doesn't mean I won't bitch about it after every loss, but I love what he has brought us as a whole and will never call for his and John's head strictly out of respect.