Pete needs to retire

[SonicHawk]

This team has overperformed pre-season expectations by about double the wins. I'm not a Pete fanboy and was ready to move on before last year... but I've been blaming Pete for gameday decisions for a decade and this year isn't anything new. I don't think Pete is the answer but I also am not convinced that another coach makes this team better.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

This team has overperformed pre-season expectations by about double the wins. I'm not a Pete fanboy and was ready to move on before last year... but I've been blaming Pete for gameday decisions for a decade and this year isn't anything new. I don't think Pete is the answer but I also am not convinced that another coach makes this team better.

Take your logic and sensible objective reasoning elsewhere mister, this thread is no place for that!

 

[JustTheTip]

This team has overperformed pre-season expectations by about double the wins. I'm not a Pete fanboy and was ready to move on before last year... but I've been blaming Pete for gameday decisions for a decade and this year isn't anything new. I don't think Pete is the answer but I also am not convinced that another coach makes this team better.

And in doing so showed the talent on the team is sufficient to compete at a higher level than they have been since the Tampa game.

 

[JustTheTip]

Take your logic and sensible objective reasoning elsewhere mister, this thread is no place for that!

Yes, they were overperforming pre-season expectations. They did it long enough and consistently enough that it isn't illogical to discuss whether they are underperforming their talent at this point despite what preseason expectations were.

 

[Jerhawk]

Pete Carroll has done such a great job this season. This young team has gotten better and better every week.

You can really tell how the coaches and players are hitting their stride just at the right time. When this team makes the playoffs this season, the rest of the league should be put on notice. This team is here to make noise.

I can't wait to see what is in store next season!

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Yes, they were overperforming pre-season expectations. They did it long enough and consistently enough that it isn't illogical to discuss whether they are underperforming their talent at this point despite what preseason expectations were.

Wat

If there ever was a season where we found out Pete wasn't the problem after trading Russell for a King's ransom, and performing better than everyone's wildest expectations, which I remind you was one of the worst 2-3 teams in the entire league that Vegas had us at 4-5 wins?

It's this year.

But sure, carry on with the fire Pete nonsense. I'm sure it has nothing to do with not even close to enough talent on the roster to realistically compete for divisions and playoff runs.

 

[SonicHawk]

If anyone should be fired it's John Schneider. Our defensive talent is abysmal.

 

[JustTheTip]

Wat

If there ever was a season where we found out Pete wasn't the problem after trading Russell for a King's ransom, and performing better than everyone's wildest expectations, which I remind you was one of the worst 2-3 teams in the entire league that Vegas had us at 4-5 wins?

It's this year.

But sure, carry on with the fire Pete nonsense. I'm sure it has nothing to do with not even close to enough talent on the roster to realistically compete for divisions and playoff runs.

Because they haven't gone 1-5 in their last 6 with many of the same issues we have seen for the last 7 years? They WERE performing better than everyone's wildest dreams. I would say over the last 6 it is about what we expected to see, maybe even a little worse. And again, after they showed they had the talent to perform above preseason expectations.

 

[JustTheTip]

If anyone should be fired it's John Schneider. Our defensive talent is abysmal.

That could just as easily be more on Pete than on John.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Because they haven't gone 1-5 in their last 6 with many of the same issues we have seen for the last 7 years? They WERE performing better than everyone's wildest dreams. I would say over the last 6 it is about what we expected to see, maybe even a little worse. And again, after they showed they had the talent to perform above preseason expectations.

So this equals Pete's fault and he should be fired?

I know you don't agree with the OP, you're just doing your JTT contrarian thing cause you're bored. Idk.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

If anyone should be fired it's John Schneider. Our defensive talent is abysmal.

The dude who just pulled off the greatest heist in NFL history and had our best draft in over a decade?

That John Schneider?

Holy crap you guys wear me the hell out sometimes.

 

[SonicHawk]

The dude who just pulled off the greatest heist in NFL history and had our best draft in over a decade?

That John Schneider?

Holy crap you guys wear me the hell out sometimes.

A fantastic trade, no doubt. But I think any GM could trade RW prior to this year.

 

[JustTheTip]

So this equals Pete's fault and he should be fired?

I know you don't agree with the OP, you're just doing your JTT contrarian thing cause you're bored. Idk.

I don't know how much of it is on Pete and how much on other factors. I do know that now the only constant that is left to certain bad patterns for the last 7 years is Pete.

My opinion on this is not based only on this year. In fact, Pete almost had me convinced I was completely wrong about the previous 6 years before the last 5 games. I think in the end he just can't help himself even if the team is playing with success but not the way he wants.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I don't know how much of it is on Pete and how much on other factors. I do know that now the only constant that is left to certain bad patterns for the last 7 years is Pete.

My opinion on this is based only on this year. In fact, Pete almost had me convinced I was completely wrong about the previous 6 years before the last 5 games. I think in the end he just can't help himself even if the team is playing with success but not the way he wants.

What are the bad patterns again?

3rd most wins over the past decade in the league? 3 division titles? 8 playoff appearances? Two SB's?

Damn you Pete for all this winning!

 

[Sgt. Largent]

A fantastic trade, no doubt. But I think any GM could trade RW prior to this year.

I won't argue that John and Pete got cute with their drafting circa 2014-2020. Or another theory is Pete had too much control over some of the bad draft picks (Pete's type of guys).

The rumor now is Pete's given up more draft control to John, so I don't think it's a coincidence that as soon as that happened COMBINED with actually having more high picks in order to re-shape the roster, bingo, best draft since 2011-2012.

So no, I'm not ready to fire Schneider, who's still widely considered one of the top GM's in the entire league and would be snatched the hell up in an instant if we fired him.

 

[morgulon1]

Pete has exceeded all expectations for this year, even with the recent downturn. Basically, the rest of the NFL has figured out the Seahawks defense is undermanned and gashed us with the power running game. With a sub-par interior O-Line and no good running backs with Penny and K9 out, it's all been on Geno's shoulders and with no running game he's not always been able to make up the difference. We don't have the horses in both lines and are getting beaten up by bullies. To me it's a talent gap, not just physical, but "football IQ" gap as well, too many Cody Bartons and not enough KJ Wrights.

I'm partly hoping we lose out to NYJ and LAR so we get high draft picks from our own record as well as from Denver, to rebuild the lines on both sides of the ball, with players and athletes who can hold up against physical teams that have overpowered us, like the 49ers, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Atlanta, Saints, and Raiders. We especially have crap for DTs, LBs, C, and RG. The gashing we are getting is why PC/JS took that past flyer on a knucklehead like Malik McDowell. Because of all the past winning, we've picked later in the draft and haven't been able to bring in as many surefire talents as say, the 49ers, who drafted well those years when they sucked.

Should Sean McVay be fired for the Rams less-than-stellar season this year? Yeah, that would be ludicrous.

Pete does have the flaw of hanging onto overmatched coordinators and assistant coaches longer than he should. Clint Hurtt is the current poster child for that. However, because of the DL and LB talent deficiency, it's hard to know how much of the problem is Hurtt and how much is the Seahawks athletic talent deficiency on the defensive side. Remember when we had Irvin, KJ, BWags, Avril, Bennett, Kam, Sherm, Earl, and others, in their prime? Remember when pre-ACL Irvin was faster than most WRs? Could Hurtt do a better job with that type of athletic talent and football IQ available to him? I'd put money on it.

There is no path forward for the Hawks that has a higher probability of success than keeping, at a minimum, Pete, Waldron, Schneider and their best coaches around, and making up some of the talent deficiency in the next draft and via good FA signings. Now if PC/JS screw up this next draft, and make more bonehead trades (Harvin, J. Adams, J. Graham) all bets are off.

Dude. That's a helluva post. I agree with all of your points and wonder how good is Hurtt or is his roster so bad it would make Buddy Ryan look stupid. I mainly make comments not in an adversarial
manner but more in a devil's advocate
angle. I do agree with Fade in that PC
has been allowed to really let this team
Go to crap over the last ten years without any fear of the hammer coming down on him. Now you and Rainger feel he isn't going anywhere for the next 2-3 years..

You both might be exactly right. If you are, no sweat off my vag. I don't care too much , as it's completely out of my control. I do however have a slight hunch if things don't turn around fairly soon Jody might take him out back and shoot him in the head. I can't support it with a link or any soundbite. It's just a Hawk fan's uneducated opinion.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I don't see any of this as a playcalling or scheme issue, I see the recent struggles as a personnel issue.

As in this offensive and defensive roster aren't even close to deep enough to be without key players like Walker, Lockett, Woods, Harris, etc.

It makes you one dimensional and teams know how and where to attack you.

So when everyone was healthy and the O-line hadn't hit the wall yet? You saw a cohesive productive offense. When the O-line got dinged up and two rookie tackles hit their rookie wall, and then key players like Lockett and Walker got hurt? It struggled.

Pete and Shane didn't all of a sudden forget how to scheme, gameplan and in-game adjust halfway through the season.

The way they're calling games is much different than how they did earlier in the season. Plays are getting in later, the we're running a lot more intermediate and deep routes. I haven't seen a whole lot of 13 personal either, which was extremely effective for us. Geno Smith isn't doing much at the LOS presnap anymore either. The playcalls are longer developing. The short passing game also isn't being utilized how it was in that win streak. They have changed how they call the plays.

The offense looks like a clone of something you would have seen underneath Russell Wilson.

 

[olyfan63]

Dude. That's a helluva post. I agree with all of your points and wonder how good is Hurtt or is his roster so bad it would make Buddy Ryan look stupid. I mainly make comments not in an adversarial
manner but more in a devil's advocate
angle. I do agree with Fade in that PC
has been allowed to really let this team
Go to crap over the last ten years without any fear of the hammer coming down on him. Now you and Rainger feel he isn't going anywhere for the next 2-3 years..

You both might be exactly right. If you are, no sweat off my vag. I don't care too much , as it's completely out of my control. I do however have a slight hunch if things don't turn around fairly soon Jody might take him out back and shoot him in the head. I can't support it with a link or any soundbite. It's just a Hawk fan's uneducated opinion.

This defense is about 5+ Pro Bowlers down since the LOB days. Let me count the ways... Sherman, Avril, Bennett, Earl, Kam, BWags, KJ, Irvin... oops, that's 7 already. Then you add in the guys who were near-Pro-Bowl level guys or at least average-plus, guys who held up their end... Chris Clemons, Brandon Mebane, Red Bryant, Jeremy Lane, Byron Maxwell, Tony McDaniel, Clinton McDonald, Walter Thurmond, Malcolm Smith, etc.

The Talent+Football IQ comparison is just a joke when we look at the 2022 Seahawks compared to the 2013 Defensive roster. Who on the 2022 Seahawks Defense even holds up their end? Let's count them... Pro Bowlers: Nwosu, Diggs. Diggs has not actually played at a Pro Bowl level this year, am I wrong? After that, there are a few above-averages, Woolen, maybe Brooks, maybe Neal, after that, it's all JAGs, Poona Ford, Shelby Harris, Quenton Jefferson, Al Woods, Irvin, MJackson, Bryant, Taylor, Mafe, and after that, it's below-replacement-level stiffs, Barton, Collier, Adams, and the rest.

Someone please correct/improve my lists if you feel I've gotten it wrong and some 2022 players should be classified higher, above JAG. A bunch are so invisible it's hard to recall if they've even been on the field other than special teams. For sure Rooks like Bryant and Mafe and younger guys like Brooks and Taylor still have potential upside, and Woolen looks like a future Pro Bowler. The point is the contrast between the 2013 defense and the 2022 edition, and the massively lower level of overall talent + Football IQ on the 2022 squad. Hawks would need to pick up 3-ish "Thumpers" (Chuck Knox term) in the draft and 2 more in Free Agency to even be within shouting distance of the 2013 or 2014 LOB defensive rosters.

I've not really addressed the "how" and "who is to blame" for the defensive talent dropoff here; that's a huge and somewhat speculative topic maybe someone else can tackle. I'll just say that 2013 Russell Wilson at $1M/Year vs 2021 Russell Wilson at $30M/Year is a factor. (and is it $26M dead cap in 2022?)

 

[Sgt. Largent]

The way they're calling games is much different than how they did earlier in the season. Plays are getting in later, the we're running a lot more intermediate and deep routes. I haven't seen a whole lot of 13 personal either, which was extremely effective for us. Geno Smith isn't doing much at the LOS presnap anymore either. The playcalls are longer developing. The short passing game also isn't being utilized how it was in that win streak. They have changed how they call the plays.

The offense looks like a clone of something you would have seen underneath Russell Wilson.

The offense looked different after the mid season success because;

1. Key injuries to Walker, etc

2. A dinged up and worn down O-line

3. Defense couldn't get off the field so the offense was not only behind most games, but limited to only 2-3 possessions per half.

4. Teams adjusted well to our heavy three TE package that Waldron was using.

Again, none of this = fire Pete. You guys are being ridiculous. What it does mean is this roster needs more depth and talent. Which hopefully will be addressed successfully over the next couple of drafts.

 

[Spin Doctor]

The offense looked different after the mid season success because;

1. Key injuries to Walker, etc

2. A dinged up and worn down O-line

3. Defense couldn't get off the field so the offense was not only behind most games, but limited to only 2-3 possessions per half.

4. Teams adjusted well to our heavy three TE package that Waldron was using.

Again, none of this = fire Pete. You guys are being ridiculous. What it does mean is this roster needs more depth and talent. Which hopefully will be addressed successfully over the next couple of drafts.

1. Even when Walker came back we couldn't run the ball.

2. You're playing right into my main point here. With a dinged up and struggling offensive line, they're still calling long developing plays. Earlier in the season they used a lot more quick hitters and anticipation throws. They're also getting the play calls in at the final seconds. This has been happening for YEARS in Seattle. Earlier in the season there was more tempo and urgency in this regard.

3. The defense has been bad for years now.

4. Did they now? It still has worked when we've used it more recently. Another thing I noticed is a lot more running out of the shotgun as opposed to earlier in the year.

Lack of talent on offense? We have 3 really good TE's, in fact our overall utilization of the TE in general seems to have gone down over the season. We have DK Metcalf and Tyler Lockett, two pro-bowl caliber wide receivers and our third receiver, Marquise Goodwin has been no slouch either. Even our line has some good pieces to work with.

Our offensive struggles being chalked up to "lack of talent" is disingenuous at best. Yes, there are a few holes, but overall our offense has more overall talent on it than a lot of teams in the league, especially when we consider the skill positions.

I'm not in the "fire Carroll camp" yet, but i do think it's time to start questioning why we have the same recurring issues year after year. The things I mentioned aren't new problems, especially on offense. You keep mentioning "lack of talent", guess how that lack of talent happened? Piss poor drafting and talent acquisition by Pete Carroll and stupid trades. This is especially true on defense, we've actually done a solid job on the offense overall with talent acquisition. The offense also does not have a "lack of talent".

Once again, we're likely going to miss the playoffs in 3 out of our last 6 years and we have a single playoff win within the last six year span. We're having a late season collapse which has happened more often than not in these last six years. The same trends have been happening for years now at this point. We've been "just 3 years away" from rebuilding the defense for YEARS now.

My main thing is I think Carroll needs to have a shorter leash and have some degree of control taken away from him.