So we are going to be a run-first team with no O-line?

[Scottemojo]

A seahawk fan can have a civil discussion with a niner fan. Just imagine what he said was not a criticism. because it wasn't.

 

[Scottemojo]

It is very short sighted to make assumptions about the quality of the Oline now when the season is still 5 months away. Is it not possible that JS and PC have a process and this is part of it? The beauty about JS is that he is always thinking and moving. I'll take a play maker over a center every time. As much as I liked Unger he is still a center, a good one but still a center.

JS mentioned on the radio that we have not seen some of the talent they have and I trust them on that.

The wording of the thread title has kind of made the whole thread antagonistic, hasn't it? Emo wording rarely works out.

 

[ceej22]

Am I missing something or does the season start Sunday?

To answer your question...YES. They didn't bring Lynch switch philosophies and be a pass heavy team. Carroll isn't going to change his philosophy after going to back to back Super Bowls.

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

This just in .... Coach Carroll is confirming what we are seeing from the tweets. I.E. lots of movement among linemen.

Back on Topic
[tweet]https://twitter.com/DavisHsuSeattle/status/576101446552178688[/tweet]

Guys wanting to come play for a great organization that treats its players well and is also a 5:1 favorite to win the Super Bowl? I'd think so!

 

[Weadoption]

Marshawn and RW do as much together to make their O lines job easier than anyone in the game.
That's been the difference imo.
dudes time and time again turn sacks and tackles into big gainers at an utterly amazing rate.
Pisses me off too lol.

 

[timmat]

For the sake of Russell Wilson, I sure hope they can put something together. There have been stretches over the past few seasons where the O line play was horrible. We just so happen to have both the only QB and RB in the league that don't require decent O line play to be successful.

The success of the team has overshadowed the fact that in my opinion, RW's development was slowed last season. He's getting happy feet even faster than before it seems, and improved protection would help him in this area. People like to say that he's good at not taking the direct hit, or built different than most QBs so he can take more shots. I think our luck will run out if we continue to take the approach that Russell doesn't require the type of protection most QBs in the league command. I guarantee he has ligaments and tendons and joints just like everyone, and the more he gets hit, well, you get the picture.

 

[jake206]

Remember Tom Cable is a descendant from Alex Gibb's style of Offensive Line philosophy. One of his most famous line was that he could make a "garbage man play guard in NFL" . Offensive linemen in Cable's scheme need to be flexible, athletic, and communicative because they literally throw themselves at defensive lineman in a choreographed obstacle course. Unger was good at the communication and athletic part, but was starting to get too hurt too often. So we need more bodies, i.e. draft more athletic young guys.

 

[Jville]

This just in .... Coach Carroll is confirming what we are seeing from the tweets. I.E. lots of movement among linemen.

Back on Topic
[tweet]https://twitter.com/DavisHsuSeattle/status/576101446552178688[/tweet]

Guys wanting to come play for a great organization that treats its players well and is also a 5:1 favorite to win the Super Bowl? I'd think so!

As we all know, linemen like a team that runs the football. I also take it as a sign that a lot of players like an organization where culture trumps numbers. And where today's work on tomorrows goal's trumps yesterday's nostalgia. Their recent fast track development of Sweezy, Bailey and Britt has surely been noticed. Lewis (a fraction under 6 foot one) is getting a serious look at center.

 

[Hawks46]

Round 3-5 Projected Backups... yeah. If you don't know what the Hawks do in the 5th rd through their roster you really don't know our team at all.

Considering we took a DT in the 7th and turned him into a starting RG and won a SB in the last two years behind a strong rushing attack i'd say they know what they're doing with the O-Line

You're shifting the argument. You're now claiming that I said that the Hawks don't know what they're doing with their O-line, when I said that in recent history they haven't been dedicating resources to their O-Line.

It's particularly annoying because you're now accusing me of the exact opposite of the point I was arguing: my point, quite clearly expressed I thought, was that I think they DO KNOW WHAT they're doing with their O-Line.

Remember, your argument is that the Hawks HAVE BEEN putting resources into their O-Line as of late. You've just been, while alluding to them, refusing to specify what those resources are. That they're starting a converted 7th round defensive tackle at offensive guard is really, really, really, really not a strong point for your argument, so I don't know why you're bringing that up (it's like you're pulling my trump card for me :lol: ).

You are getting the Niner fan treatment.
You are also spot on. As the team evolves, the Carpenter and Okung type picks have been replaced by Bailey and Gilliam type picks. Throwing first round picks at the line has not resulted in dominant and durable starters. Which is what I would want from first round picks.

Which has always kind of been the theory with zone blocking. Gibbs the guru joked about being able to turn a garbageman into a good zone blocker.

Funny, I thought the quote was that he could turn a garbage can into a good zone blocker. Either way, the point is the same. ZBS don't usually need a lot of draft capital to get the job done, due to cut blocking and combination blocks. You don't always have a blocking assignment, you have an area, and whomever is in that area, you block.

As far as I've ever heard or read about it, Gibbs is considered the God Father of the Zone Blocking Scheme.

 

[Popeyejones]

A seahawk fan can have a civil discussion with a niner fan. Just imagine what he said was not a criticism. because it wasn't.

Thanks, man.

If I'm wrong (and I very well could be), the consequence would be that I'm mistakenly giving J.S. and P.C. too much credit, and complimenting them for brilliant strategy and roster manipulation when what I'm seeing is really just a glitch (you know, like how 9ers fans are always too quick to talk about how smart J.S. and P.C. are :lol: ).

FWIW though, if correct, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they start dedicating draft (or FA) capital to the line again. Slotting that capital into other position groups has clearly worked wonders for them, but in some ways I think they've already won; the rest of the roster is now strong enough and mostly locked up, and continuing on with the strategy just has diminishing returns at some point.

Going back to the O-Line can also be a preparatory move for moving on from Lynch, or for Wilson's development with using the pocket to manipulate the rush (as Brees, who he cites a lot, is probably as good or better at than anyone in the NFL).

That said, I think you raise a really good point about the zone blocking scheme and its history when executed well; they could be playing this game forever.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

FWIW though, if correct, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they start dedicating draft (or FA) capital to the line again. Slotting that capital into other position groups has clearly worked wonders for them, but in some ways I think they've already won; the rest of the roster is now strong enough and mostly locked up, and continuing on with the strategy just has diminishing returns at some point. .

Pete and John aren't reinventing the wheel, it's pretty basic cap math.

Right now everyone's overpaying for DB's and WR's in free agency, so they're not going to overpay. Instead they know they can turn a 2nd or 3rd tier DB into a quality starter, trade for true value (Graham) and then take advantage of the soft market on O-Line and D-line.

I fully expect 3-4 lineman to be signed on both sides of the ball, as well as most of our draft dedicated to restocking the lines.

 

[Jville]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/DavisHsuSeattle/status/576119188873314304[/tweet]

 

[Scottemojo]

A seahawk fan can have a civil discussion with a niner fan. Just imagine what he said was not a criticism. because it wasn't.

Thanks, man.

If I'm wrong (and I very well could be), the consequence would be that I'm mistakenly giving J.S. and P.C. too much credit, and complimenting them for brilliant strategy and roster manipulation when what I'm seeing is really just a glitch (you know, like how 9ers fans are always too quick to talk about how smart J.S. and P.C. are :lol: ).

FWIW though, if correct, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they start dedicating draft (or FA) capital to the line again. Slotting that capital into other position groups has clearly worked wonders for them, but in some ways I think they've already won; the rest of the roster is now strong enough and mostly locked up, and continuing on with the strategy just has diminishing returns at some point.

Going back to the O-Line can also be a preparatory move for moving on from Lynch, or for Wilson's development with using the pocket to manipulate the rush (as Brees, who he cites a lot, is probably as good or better at than anyone in the NFL).

That said, I think you raise a really good point about the zone blocking scheme and its history when executed well; they could be playing this game forever.

FWIW, I was stunned when they took Okung and Carpenter. Gibbs had never had a top LT prospect to work with, IIRC the highest he had ever selected a LT was 26, and when they hired Gibbs and his coach em up philosophy it felt like going a bit low rent on the line was in the cards. Carpenter was an OK guard who was at his best vs Power DL like Justin Smith, but he really struggled with speed, which was why he didn't stick at RT and got wrecked at G by guys like Aaron Donald, and was at a disadvantage if there was a stunt from the LDE. I still think Carpenter was miscast in a Zone, he was too big and too slow. Sweezy is a much better example of what can be done with a know nothing athletic guy. He catches a lot of shit on this board, but he is a genuine athlete and bad ass, despite his occasional glaring mistake. A perfect zone blocker.

 

[jake206]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/DavisHsuSeattle/status/576119188873314304[/tweet]

 

[bigskydoc]

For awhile I was confused by how little resources the Hawks were dedicating to the O-line.

Over time I've decided that it's part of their strategy, because it's too weird for it not to be...

I think the Seahawks have just made the conscious decision that they'll pull resources from the offensive line and put it into other units (the secondary, the d-line).

I think you are pretty much on the money here in terms of the recent history. They haven't put a ton of capital into improving the line in the last few years. Rather, they have focused that capital on other areas of greater need and banked on the capital already spent on the O-line.

You seem to suggest, though, that this is just the way it is always going to be with Carroll/ Schneider and they are somehow satisfied with letting Wilson/Lynch perpetually make up for lack of a good line.

Maybe I am mis-interpreting, and you really are saying that this is the short-term strategy to prioritize other segments of the team since Lynch/ Wilson can make do for now with a league average line for now. I think that is the correct assessment.

I think their strategy is one of prioritization of need in the short-term rather than a strategy of never devoting significant resources to the offensive line, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some significant resources devoted to improving the line in the (very) near future.

For evidence of this, I would point to their history. The very first pick of the Carroll era in Seattle was Okung, and the first two picks of his second draft were Carpenter and Moffitt. These picks were made on top of an already existing 2nd round pick at center from the year before Carroll took over.

I do think we will be spending significant capital on the line, it just hasn't been the priority yet.

- bsd

 

[Scottemojo]

For awhile I was confused by how little resources the Hawks were dedicating to the O-line.

Over time I've decided that it's part of their strategy, because it's too weird for it not to be...

I think the Seahawks have just made the conscious decision that they'll pull resources from the offensive line and put it into other units (the secondary, the d-line).

I think you are pretty much on the money here in terms of the recent history. They haven't put a ton of capital into improving the line in the last few years. Rather, they have focused that capital on other areas of greater need and banked on the capital already spent on the O-line.

You seem to suggest, though, that this is just the way it is always going to be with Carroll/ Schneider and they are somehow satisfied with letting Wilson/Lynch perpetually make up for lack of a good line.

Maybe I am mis-interpreting, and you really are saying that this is the short-term strategy to prioritize other segments of the team since Lynch/ Wilson can make do for now with a league average line for now. I think that is the correct assessment.

I think their strategy is one of prioritization of need in the short-term rather than a strategy of never devoting significant resources to the offensive line, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some significant resources devoted to improving the line in the (very) near future.

For evidence of this, I would point to their history. The very first pick of the Carroll era in Seattle was Okung, and the first two picks of his second draft were Carpenter and Moffitt. These picks were made on top of an already existing 2nd round pick at center from the year before Carroll took over.

I do think we will be spending significant capital on the line, it just hasn't been the priority yet.

- bsd

Maybe that 2nd draft is why they changed their O-line acquisition. Not too good with those first 2 picks.

 

[bigskydoc]

...FWIW though, if correct, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they start dedicating draft (or FA) capital to the line again. Slotting that capital into other position groups has clearly worked wonders for them, but in some ways I think they've already won; the rest of the roster is now strong enough and mostly locked up, and continuing on with the strategy just has diminishing returns at some point.

Going back to the O-Line can also be a preparatory move for moving on from Lynch, or for Wilson's development with using the pocket to manipulate the rush (as Brees, who he cites a lot, is probably as good or better at than anyone in the NFL).

That said, I think you raise a really good point about the zone blocking scheme and its history when executed well; they could be playing this game forever.

You posted this while I was typing my reply, so it looks like we are pretty much in agreement on the Hawks strategy. I think you are absolutely correct with this assessment.

Carry on.

- bsd

 

[bigskydoc]

Marshawn and RW do as much together to make their O lines job easier than anyone in the game.
.

Wilson does more than any other quarterback in the league to make his O-line's job more difficult. Lynch makes a great run blocking line look elite.

-bsd

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Marshawn and RW do as much together to make their O lines job easier than anyone in the game.
.

Wilson does more than any other quarterback in the league to make his O-line's job more difficult

-bsd

How is turning crap blocking into TD's making an O-line's job more difficult? If Russell was immobile, this forum would be ON FIRE with threads calling for Pete, Cable and every O-lineman's head.

Sure his scrambling around and holding onto the ball more than most QB's can make it hard to block for, but FAR more than not Russell turns sure sacks into positive yards.

 

[DJrmb]

Pete Carrol was on 710 today and was asked about the "holes" they had created in the line by letting Carpenter go and trading away Max Unger. His response was:

We've been working for some time to create a competitive situation there so we can make some moves

I don't know how much evidence people need that they were planning to rework the line all along. Maybe now that Pete has come out and said exactly that you'll believe them? They have a plan and they are following it. I fully expect them to bring in lots of talent and see who sticks, sort of like when they were building the DB group. However if they don't then that just means they already have the guys they are confident in. Most likely it will be a mixture of the two approaches.

Sit back and watch Pete and John work... :snack: