The difference between PC and Belichick

[pittpnthrs]

Would you rather have a coach that wins, or one you want to go grab lunch with?

 

[John63]

Well this is Russell Wilson’s team now.

LOL yeah ahh no, PC will do what he wants WIlson or no Wilson. He knows no other way, he is a 1 trick pony

 

[John63]

Let's face another fact (although a minor one), Pete with an all beat to hell LOB was only 1 yard away from sealing a win for that Super Bowl....In other words, Billycheat SQUEAKED out a really close win.

Belichick didnt win that, Pete lost it.

Thats code for PC got out coached it was Belichick who had the practice for that.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Yeah, because it was Pete who gave up a 10 point lead in the 4th quarter. It was him who get shredded by Brady in the 4th quarter :?
Believe it or not, sometimes it on the PLAYERS too.

 

[Mad Dog]

The difference between Belichek and Pete comes down to scheming to your opponent before or during the game.
Belichek extensively gameplans for his opponent whereas Pete reacts to what his opponent is doing during a game.

Both adapt to their personnel but tend to bring in guys that match their philosophy. Pete prefers great athletes with simplified schemes so they can succeed. Belichek prefers savvy vets who can learn their more complicated roles week to week.

To say Pete doesn't adapt is silly since we've seen him adopt the read option and jet sweeps when they were de rigeur. He's moved from ZBS to more isolation man-on-man run game.

Belichek is the greatest football coach on the planet because he goes after every angle (including breaking rules) to get a victory. His approach clearly can't be replicated as no disciple of his has achieved much success trying to bring the Patriot Way to other franchises. Not every coach is going to sacrifice their honor to win. I prefer guys like Reid and Carroll who are well respected by their peers and players.

 

[John63]

Yeah, because it was Pete who gave up a 10 point lead in the 4th quarter. It was him who get shredded by Brady in the 4th quarter :?
Believe it or not, sometimes it on the PLAYERS too.

Amazing how the 10 point lead blow is alright to defend PC but not Wilson.

I agree that the blown lead was part of the issue. And I agree that the players have their part. That said so does PC, and he made no adjustments on defense and got out coached on offense. SO eh is just as much to blame as the players.

The issue I have is PC is unwilling to do what good coaches should do, create/play a system built around his players.

 

[John63]

The difference between Belichek and Pete comes down to scheming to your opponent before or during the game.
Belichek extensively gameplans for his opponent whereas Pete reacts to what his opponent is doing during a game.

Both adapt to their personnel but tend to bring in guys that match their philosophy. Pete prefers great athletes with simplified schemes so they can succeed. Belichek prefers savvy vets who can learn their more complicated roles week to week.

To say Pete doesn't adapt is silly since we've seen him adopt the read option and jet sweeps when they were de rigeur. He's moved from ZBS to more isolation man-on-man run game.

Belichek is the greatest football coach on the planet because he goes after every angle (including breaking rules) to get a victory. His approach clearly can't be replicated as no disciple of his has achieved much success trying to bring the Patriot Way to other franchises. Not every coach is going to sacrifice their honor to win. I prefer guys like Reid and Carroll who are well respected by their peers and players.

This changes that PC made are at a granular level, did it change the actual system it self, no we still run even when everyone knows we will, we still try to snap it with 3 or fewer seconds left. we still run rudimentary routes, and we still are veyr predictable.

The system has not changed the way we do it change ie blocking ZBS to man great, but we are still run at all cost, still predictable, and still wasting time, and still not utilizing our personnel correctly.

Let me put it another way you have a goat, you put a horse costume on it, great it looks like a horse but its still a goat.

OR in other words we changed the way we run his system but not the system itself.

 

[Mad Dog]

The difference between Belichek and Pete comes down to scheming to your opponent before or during the game.
Belichek extensively gameplans for his opponent whereas Pete reacts to what his opponent is doing during a game.

Both adapt to their personnel but tend to bring in guys that match their philosophy. Pete prefers great athletes with simplified schemes so they can succeed. Belichek prefers savvy vets who can learn their more complicated roles week to week.

To say Pete doesn't adapt is silly since we've seen him adopt the read option and jet sweeps when they were de rigeur. He's moved from ZBS to more isolation man-on-man run game.

Belichek is the greatest football coach on the planet because he goes after every angle (including breaking rules) to get a victory. His approach clearly can't be replicated as no disciple of his has achieved much success trying to bring the Patriot Way to other franchises. Not every coach is going to sacrifice their honor to win. I prefer guys like Reid and Carroll who are well respected by their peers and players.

This changes that PC made are at a granular level, did it change the actual system it self, no we still run even when everyone knows we will, we still try to snap it with 3 or fewer seconds left. we still run rudimentary routes, and we still are veyr predictable.

The system has not changed the way we do it change ie blocking ZBS to man great, but we are still run at all cost, still predictable, and still wasting time, and still not utilizing our personnel correctly.

Let me put it another way you have a goat, you put a horse costume on it, great it looks like a horse but its still a goat.

OR in other words we changed the way we run his system but not the system itself.

Why would you change the system/philosophy? It got you to two superbowls and many playoff seasons.

I don't think Belichek has changed his philosophy at all. He still takes away what you do well which is the core tenet of his coaching philosophy. You gameplan around the weaknesses you find in film study.

Pete's philosophy is see how you are attacking our gameplan and adjust to it. So you play the first half close to the vest, then open things up in the second half. I don't think it's ever been "run at all cost". It's "run because good things happen to those that run the ball." Physical dominance, taming the pass rush, running the clock, setting up deep shots. Didn't the Niners just make the Superbowl with the hawks philosophy? Strong run game, play action passing, dominating defense?

There's nothing wrong with the philosophy. It works. People are arguing about style points these days.

 

[chris98251]

Bill attacks on offense and on defense.

Pete tries to control on offense and defense.

 

[John63]

The difference between Belichek and Pete comes down to scheming to your opponent before or during the game.
Belichek extensively gameplans for his opponent whereas Pete reacts to what his opponent is doing during a game.

Both adapt to their personnel but tend to bring in guys that match their philosophy. Pete prefers great athletes with simplified schemes so they can succeed. Belichek prefers savvy vets who can learn their more complicated roles week to week.

To say Pete doesn't adapt is silly since we've seen him adopt the read option and jet sweeps when they were de rigeur. He's moved from ZBS to more isolation man-on-man run game.

Belichek is the greatest football coach on the planet because he goes after every angle (including breaking rules) to get a victory. His approach clearly can't be replicated as no disciple of his has achieved much success trying to bring the Patriot Way to other franchises. Not every coach is going to sacrifice their honor to win. I prefer guys like Reid and Carroll who are well respected by their peers and players.

This changes that PC made are at a granular level, did it change the actual system it self, no we still run even when everyone knows we will, we still try to snap it with 3 or fewer seconds left. we still run rudimentary routes, and we still are veyr predictable.

The system has not changed the way we do it change ie blocking ZBS to man great, but we are still run at all cost, still predictable, and still wasting time, and still not utilizing our personnel correctly.

Let me put it another way you have a goat, you put a horse costume on it, great it looks like a horse but its still a goat.

OR in other words we changed the way we run his system but not the system itself.

Why would you change the system/philosophy? It got you to two superbowls and many playoff seasons.

I don't think Belichek has changed his philosophy at all. He still takes away what you do well which is the core tenet of his coaching philosophy. You gameplan around the weaknesses you find in film study.

Pete's philosophy is see how you are attacking our gameplan and adjust to it. So you play the first half close to the vest, then open things up in the second half. I don't think it's ever been "run at all cost". It's "run because good things happen to those that run the ball." Physical dominance, taming the pass rush, running the clock, setting up deep shots. Didn't the Niners just make the Superbowl with the hawks philosophy? Strong run game, play action passing, dominating defense?

There's nothing wrong with the philosophy. It works. People are arguing about style points these days.

Why because we have not gotten beyond the 2nd round in 5+ years. Because you don't have the same players now you had then. Because your best players are different. But you just outlined the difference between PC and Belichick. Belichick adapts to what he has and builds a system around them hence why he has 5+ rings. A good HC builds a system to what he has. Its not style, its system in relations to the players we have. Also PC plays not to loose as opposed to playing to win. This leaves little room for error and does not play to the strength of the players on this team.

 

[Jville]

It seems to me that Pete Carroll and Bill Belichick, with all their considerable success, share far more similarities in common than differences. But these constant and narrow preoccupations with lists and rankings as to who is better than who and boring arguments over pecking order corral many threads into small holding pens of contention.

So much of the posting is paralyzed by an extremely narrow preoccupation with the same adversarial discussion. Many of these threads raise doubt about poster comprehension with regards to mandatory collaboration among coaches and players and front office. The collaboration that is required every year to assemble and build a successful team. This thread, along with others similarly trapped in the same narrow theme, serves as a reminder of the presence of a very narrow view preoccupied with standing and status. A very small view that is the outcome of an absence of sufficient grasp in what characterizes a team and / or how to build one.

Thankfully, there are many postings with far more expansive outlooks and contributions that keep the forum alive. My thanks to each and every one of you with something to contribute and post. It's what keeps me coming back.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Didn't the Niners just make the Superbowl with the hawks philosophy? Strong run game, play action passing, dominating defense?

There's nothing wrong with the philosophy. It works. People are arguing about style points these days.

The philosophy works when you have the personnel to execute it. The problem is never deriving from it when you dont.

 

[Jville]

LOL ................ There was a lot of talk about the Seahawks leaning on a heavy use of the base defense last year ... driven by personnel performances and events.

Some of the poorly thought out criticism thrown around the forum lacks valid foundation. It often strikes me as made up accusations thrown up on a message board in hopes of a fictional narrative sticking.

 

[dopeboy206]

One thing I admire about Bellichick is he plays the game like chess or he doesn't tell you what he's going to do. He makes u guess.

Pete on the other hand opens his mouth to the media and tells people what he plans to do before the game even started.

A magician never reveals his secret...Pete's downfall is that he's so open revealing his gameplan, you'll never hear Bill Bellichick do that before the game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[John63]

LOL ................ There was a lot of talk about the Seahawks leaning on a heavy use of the base defense last year ... driven by personnel performances and events.

Some of the poorly thought out criticism thrown around the forum lacks valid foundation. It often strikes me as made up accusations thrown up on a message board in hopes of a fictional narrative sticking.

all great but most of us are talking offense. Were hs refuses to chaneg despite the talent saying he should.

 

[John63]

One thing I admire about Bellichick is he plays the game like chess or he doesn't tell you what he's going to do. He makes u guess.

Pete on the other hand opens his mouth to the media and tells people what he plans to do before the game even started.

A magician never reveals his secret...Pete's downfall is that he's so open revealing his gameplan, you'll never hear Bill Bellichick do that before the game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

PC says, and I am paraphrasing " we are going to line up and do what we do, and out execute the other team." in other words give our selves virtually no margin for error. A lot of our opponents after the games would say for most of the game they knew what was coming. The only time the did not was when Wilson was let "loose", meaning they went with a more unpredictable offense relying on Wilson doing a lot of the playcalling.

 

[bigskydoc]

Comparing any coach to the true GOAT is either completely ridiculous, or is a
mark of just how good said coach really is.

Why don't we compare Carrol to the other great, salary cap era coaches.

Sean Payton - offensive genius, paired with one of the top pure quarterbacks of all time, arguably the true GOAT QB.
Payton is no defensive slouch either, probably due to hiring good defensive assistants. 14 years as head coach, including all of Drew Brees' prime years, resulting in 8 playoff appearances. 1-2 NFCCG record and a 1-0 Super Bowl record

John Harbaugh - Successful with a variety of changing players and schemes. Primarily has had defensive super stars and his most successful years came without a 1st tier QB. Coaches in the slightly more competitive AFC North. 12 years as head coach resulting in 8 playoff berths, a 1-2 AFCCG record, and a 1-0 Super Bowl record.

Mike Tomlin - Primary success came from the team that Cowher built, and a early decline Roethlisberger. 13 years as head coach. 8 playoff berths. 2-1 in AFCCG. 1-1 Super Bowl record.

Andy Reid - another offensive mind. Has had a variety of excellent to HOF caliber QBs. 22 years as head coach. 15 playoff berths. 2-5 NFCCG/AFCCG record. 1-1 Super Bowl Record.

Bill Parcells - 19 years head coach. Maybe doesn't exactly belong on this list. Never with a true top tier QB IMHO. 10 playoff berths. 3-1 in NFCCG/AFCCG. 2-1 in Super Bowls.

Pete Carroll - Fielded an all-time great defense, and one of the best all-time QBs. 14 years as head coach. 10 playoff berths. 2-0 in NFCCG, 1-1 in Super Bowls.

And then there is

Bill Belichick - All of his success came in the weakest division in the NFL. 25 years head coach. 18 playoff berths. 9-4 in AFCCGs. 6-3 in Super Bowls


I would say that Carroll is on par with all of the best coaches in the Salary Cap era save the GOAT. One more Super Bowl win puts him firmly in the conversation for an eventual HOF appointment, though not first ballot. But the only absolute, no question about it, first ballot HOFer in the group is Belichick.

 

[Jville]

LOL ................ There was a lot of talk about the Seahawks leaning on a heavy use of the base defense last year ... driven by personnel performances and events.

Some of the poorly thought out criticism thrown around the forum lacks valid foundation. It often strikes me as made up accusations thrown up on a message board in hopes of a fictional narrative sticking.

all great but most of us are talking offense. Were hs refuses to chaneg despite the talent saying he should.

LOL ...... The staffs of both Carroll and Belichick adjust to scheme and personnel. It's an attribute they share. :biggthumpup: The selection and addition of DK Metcaft as he settled in certainly changed up the mix of what they did on offense as the season unfolded.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

One thing I admire about Bellichick is he plays the game like chess or he doesn't tell you what he's going to do. He makes u guess.

Pete on the other hand opens his mouth to the media and tells people what he plans to do before the game even started.

A magician never reveals his secret...Pete's downfall is that he's so open revealing his gameplan, you'll never hear Bill Bellichick do that before the game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

PC says, and I am paraphrasing " we are going to line up and do what we do, and out execute the other team." in other words give our selves virtually no margin for error. A lot of our opponents after the games would say for most of the game they knew what was coming. The only time the did not was when Wilson was let "loose", meaning they went with a more unpredictable offense relying on Wilson doing a lot of the playcalling.

This approach works when your defense is bigger, faster, stronger and plays harder than every other team in the league, or you have a HOF caliber RB and QB that runs a 4.4.

But we saw last year when we were in base half the time with inferior talent in the defensive side of the ball and a bad O-line that Pete's simple philosophical approach isn't so great.

Hard to bag on Pete, dude wins, and has won for the better part of 40 years. So to criticize or compare him to the GOAT coach is a ridiculous debate.

Take it from someone who's been a fan since day one, we will SORELY miss Pete when he's gone.

 

[RW4LIFE]

Belichick allows players to play to their strengths. Pete makes players play to his scheme rather than theirs.

Easy as that.

Well said and very true.

Pete is the greatest coach Seattle has ever had but his time here peaked some time ago.

As for the BB comparison, well, Pete isn't in the same league as Belichick. Very few coaches are. Pete is a very good coach. Belichick is a great coach.

If Belichick wins a SB w/o Brady, he might very well be Lombardi-esque in the all-time rankings. Some argue he's already there.

And if Brady somehow pulls off a miracle of miracles and wins a Super Bowl w/o Belichick then he more than cements his ranking as the undisputed all-time best QB ever.

Between the two I'm pulling for Brady - right behind Russel (who pound-for-pound is currently a better QB than Brady overall at this point in their respective careers) and the crew showing up this season and going all the way.