We need a true NT

[bileever]

Hopefully the failures have been more mental in nature and the deletion of certain players and the addition of others were the change we need.

And maybe the deletion of certain coaches. I wonder what the effect of bringing in Sean Desai had on the defense. He's got a reputation as a smart defensive mind, but what was the result of hiring Clint Hurtt as your DC only to undermine him by hiring Desai as associate head coach/defensive consultant. Who was actually in charge? Were they on the same page?

Although Desai is supposed to be one of those up and coming young coaches, I never got any sense of who he was and what his role was. I don't think the press did a good job of covering him. And even though he was supposed to be friendly with Hurtt because they both worked under Vic Fangio in Chicago, I don't know if they actually got along or whether their dual positions ended up sending a mixed message to the players.

Although I'm still not sold on Hurtt as DC, I hope that being more clearly in charge this year will make him more successful.

 

[keasley45]

And maybe the deletion of certain coaches. I wonder what the effect of bringing in Sean Desai had on the defense. He's got a reputation as a smart defensive mind, but what was the result of hiring Clint Hurtt as your DC only to undermine him by hiring Desai as associate head coach/defensive consultant. Who was actually in charge? Were they on the same page?

Although Desai is supposed to be one of those up and coming young coaches, I never got any sense of who he was and what his role was. I don't think the press did a good job of covering him. And even though he was supposed to be friendly with Hurtt because they both worked under Vic Fangio in Chicago, I don't know if they actually got along or whether their dual positions ended up sending a mixed message to the players.

Although I'm still not sold on Hurtt as DC, I hope that being more clearly in charge this year will make him more successful.

Yeah. I'm not sold on Hurtt yet either, and yiu bring up good points about Desai. Question is, did we keep the right guy between the two.

Hurtt - he SEEMS like he has the 'leader' act down. He looks the part in front of the cameras, but is it an act or does he really have the respect of the lockerroom.

I can certainly see how Clint could have struggled some last year if he was trying to step into the top dog's shoes AND pick up and teach the philosophy Pete might be driving for - one that's not as straightforward as the scheme he ran with the LOB.

 

[hawkfan68]

Yeah. I'm not sold on Hurtt yet either, and yiu bring up good points about Desai. Question is, did we keep the right guy between the two.

Hurtt - he SEEMS like he has the 'leader' act down. He looks the part in front of the cameras, but is it an act or does he really have the respect of the lockerroom.

I can certainly see how Clint could have struggled some last year if he was trying to step into the top dog's shoes AND pick up and teach the philosophy Pete might be driving for - one that's not as straightforward as the scheme he ran with the LOB.

It would have been nice if the Seahawks would have brought back Gus Bradley rather than move in the Desai-Hurtt direction. The 2022 Colts finished 3rd in scoring points on defense at 17.0/ppg and that was without their best player on defense - Shaquille (formerly Darius) Leonard. Also it was under Bradley that the LOB formed. He was the DC in 2011-12 when it began its upward trajectory.

 

[Hawkmode]

And maybe the deletion of certain coaches. I wonder what the effect of bringing in Sean Desai had on the defense. He's got a reputation as a smart defensive mind, but what was the result of hiring Clint Hurtt as your DC only to undermine him by hiring Desai as associate head coach/defensive consultant. Who was actually in charge? Were they on the same page?

Although Desai is supposed to be one of those up and coming young coaches, I never got any sense of who he was and what his role was. I don't think the press did a good job of covering him. And even though he was supposed to be friendly with Hurtt because they both worked under Vic Fangio in Chicago, I don't know if they actually got along or whether their dual positions ended up sending a mixed message to the players.

Although I'm still not sold on Hurtt as DC, I hope that being more clearly in charge this year will make him more successful.

The media seems to leave it up to "outside" content to shed any light on our coaching beyond Pete ...Shane and Clint. There's probably not enough clicks/ad interest for real coverage. We narrowly got Sean Desai who had some "offers/interviews" before accepting being reunited with an old pal (Clint). We had earlier convinced Ed Donatell but:

From mynorthwest.com John Clayton (RIP) Feb 10 2022 :
Donatell, who was Broncos defensive coordinator for the past three seasons, had been reported to be joining the Seahawks as a defensive coach, but the Vikings are finalizing a deal to make him defensive coordinator Thursday.


The idea of having Clint Hurtt as a first-time defensive coordinator in Seattle and Donattell as the 65-year-old mind to run things by would have been an exceptional way to revamp the Seahawks’ defense. Apparently, new Vikings head coach Kevin O’Donnell wanted the experienced hand of Donatell to rely on as he takes his first coaching job, however.

Just like Pete tries to provide support to his QB...Pete knew the difficulty of being a new Defensive Coordinator calling in plays for the first time and losing Wags (who would have made the transition for Clint a bit easier by handling comms for incoming play distribution).

We were hoping to make some newer adjustments toward 3-4 elements and personnel adjustments away from the "Bear" fronts Ken Norton Jr had been working with.

Sean Desai was hired to help Clint as an advisor/mentor capacity. As for losing Ed Donatell to the Vikings...perhaps Minnesota wasn't pleased with our hiring away Karl Scott who had coached the Viking secondary in 2021 (heavy speculation...I know)

As for those already to serve notice to Clint to put up or be "replaced" I'll add an additional post separate from this already lengthy response.

 

[Hawkinaz]

I honestly think we're going back to a 4-3 cover 3 style of defense, and Pete just hasn't told anyone.

- he's got his Earl free safety fully healthy now in Diggs who can cover a lot of ground
- he's got his run stuffing MLB back in Wagner
- he's got a deep D-line roster full of versatile linemen who can play multiple techniques.
- he's got two nasty physical cover corners who can lock down their sides

Just remember when the season starts where you heard it 1st. In now way does what Pete and John have done the last two off seasons = sticking with the 3-4 scheme that didn't work last year. It ALL spells going back to Pete Ball on defense with long athletic bullies.

I was thinking there was a possibility early on the Hawks might go back to a 4-3 than when the signed Wagner it sealed the deal. IMO the Hawks don’t have the personnel in the front 7 to play a 3-4. PC needs to be more involved with the defense

 

[Maelstrom787]

I think we're still talking in really, really black-and-white terms regarding 3-4 and 4-3 etc etc.

They're gonna keep being highly multiple in nature. They ran less 3-4 in 2022 than they did in 2021. None of these labels fit well other than "multiple."

 

[Hawkmode]

The media seems to leave it up to "outside" content to shed any light on our coaching beyond Pete ...Shane and Clint. There's probably not enough clicks/ad interest for real coverage. We narrowly got Sean Desai who had some "offers/interviews" before accepting being reunited with an old pal (Clint). We had earlier convinced Ed Donatell but:

From mynorthwest.com John Clayton (RIP) Feb 10 2022 :
Donatell, who was Broncos defensive coordinator for the past three seasons, had been reported to be joining the Seahawks as a defensive coach, but the Vikings are finalizing a deal to make him defensive coordinator Thursday.


The idea of having Clint Hurtt as a first-time defensive coordinator in Seattle and Donattell as the 65-year-old mind to run things by would have been an exceptional way to revamp the Seahawks’ defense. Apparently, new Vikings head coach Kevin O’Donnell wanted the experienced hand of Donatell to rely on as he takes his first coaching job, however.

Just like Pete tries to provide support to his QB...Pete knew the difficulty of being a new Defensive Coordinator calling in plays for the first time and losing Wags (who would have made the transition for Clint a bit easier by handling comms for incoming play distribution).

We were hoping to make some newer adjustments toward 3-4 elements and personnel adjustments away from the "Bear" fronts Ken Norton Jr had been working with.

Sean Desai was hired to help Clint as an advisor/mentor capacity. As for losing Ed Donatell to the Vikings...perhaps Minnesota wasn't pleased with our hiring away Karl Scott who had coached the Viking secondary in 2021 (heavy speculation...I know)

As for those already to serve notice to Clint to put up or be "replaced" I'll add an additional post separate from this already lengthy response.

"As promised" a lengthy post on Defensive Coordinators :

ByCoach Martin|Coaching


defensive-coordinator

A lot of attention in football gets put on a team's head coach, and the final credit and / or blame for how a team performs falls into their lap.

There's good reason for that, too, as the head coach is ultimately responsible for everything that happens with the team.

In essence, the head coach is the CEO of a football team.

But like any good CEO at a company, they need a solid supporting staff to help make things run smoothly.

This "executive team" consists of three main coaches:

Offensive coordinator
Special teams coordinator
Defensive coordinator

Each of these coaches is responsible for one of the main units on a football team -- the offense, the defense, and the special teams.

These coaches hold full responsibility over their unit, the plays they run and the players on the field.

They are executives on the team -- to use the business analogy -- and essentially serve as the head coach for their particular until.

They report directly to the head football coach, but also have other coaches underneath them who report directly to them.

Let's take a closer look at the role of a defensive coordinator, including their responsibilities and salary.


The defensive coordinator's main responsibility is to run the defensive unit effectively.

Their duties include:

Designing plays for the defense
Making decisions on positions and roles
Game preparation
Opponent scouting
Teaching, training and execution

The defensive coordinator can't manage to do all of these alone -- especially throughout an entire football season.

Which is why they, too, have many other coaches who work directly underneath them as supporting staff.

Let's take a look at the most important responsibilities:

a. Game Preparation

Different teams may certainly have a slightly different approaches when it comes to defensive coaching staff.

However, the typical staff will have separate coaches in charge of the defensive line, the linebackers, and the secondary.

Some teams will even have a separate coach for the cornerbacks and a separate coach for the safeties, too.

Each week, the defensive coordinator works with all of the assistants to cover the game plan for the upcoming game.

This includes not only going over the general plays, but the specific ones that might work well against the upcoming opponent.

During the practice week leading up to the game, defensive coordinators will work hand-in-hand with their position coaches to come up with a specific schemes to run on game day.

This could be out of a base 3-4 alignment or 4-3 alignment, based on the team's personnel and the offense that is likely to be used by their opponent.

Then, all the coaches will implement this scheme with the players on the practice field.

They can do this by setting up dummies or getting a scout team to act as the opposing team's offense.

This will help the players understand the alignment and better prepare them for what they will likely face in the upcoming game.


b. Studying Film

A lot of work during the week will also happen in the film room.

The defensive coordinator will run tapes of the opponent's games to show the defensive unit exactly what they're dealing with.

They'll show important details about how the opposing team runs their offense, their tendencies, and what to look out for.

Position coaches will step in when necessary to add emphasis or to explain in more detail specific situations.

c. Calling Defensive Plays

On game day, a defensive coordinator's job might include calling the defensive plays.

Some head coaches handle this duty, though, so it really depends on each individual team.

Some defensive coordinators will be on the sideline for games, while others prefer to get a birds-eye view of the action from the booth in the stadium.

Again, this is really a personal preference between the defensive coordinator and the head coach.

Regardless of whether they call the plays or not, they will be responsible for tracking the performance of the team on each play.

Defensive coordinators must then make adjustments to the defensive plan as the game progresses.

Defensive Coordinator Salary

The three coordinators will often make the most money among the coaching staff, aside from the head coach.

Some defensive coordinators may make more than the other two coordinators. Some may make less, and some teams will pay all their coordinators the same.

In the National Football League, defensive coordinators earn roughly $600,000 to $800,000 per year.

Currently, the highest-paid defensive coordinator in the league is Todd Bowles, who makes $3 million per year with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.


Conclusion

The defensive coordinator is one of the most important coaches on a football team, and as such, he's often paid very well for his job.

They are essentially the "head coach of the defense," responsible for all players, staff, and schemes on that side of the football.

 

[keasley45]

I think we're still talking in really, really black-and-white terms regarding 3-4 and 4-3 etc etc.

They're gonna keep being highly multiple in nature. They ran less 3-4 in 2022 than they did in 2021. None of these labels fit well other than "multiple."

P3T3-4, IE. multiple

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I don't know, man. I think Pete has a desire to leave a mark on the game and innovate some new twist on defense that has seldom been seen.

Bill's Patriots are running their chameleon scheme, which constantly involves a wildcard X position that allows them to adapt to almost any look they see. Their players love it.

The 'Fangio' defense of late is a thing.

To me the adherence to what has been deemed a 'complex' scheme, might be because he doesn't want to give up on what he sees is a 'master stroke' change that will transform our play and evolve the game in some way - or at least add a wrinkle that will forever be 'Pete's'.

I'm not saying he's doing it at the team's expense. Although you can debate the value of doing a thing that has shown to be a liability with the players you have on deck. It just seems like there's something they're chasing. Bringing in Sean Desai last year pointed to them trying hard to teach as much as coach. Karl Scott is also as much a cerebral 'teacher' type as he is a coach, and is now working with the DBs.

And some game analysis last year spoke directly to the Hawks scheme being 'close' to being the Swiss Army knife that it seems like Pete is looking for. MattyBroen touched on this a few times. But execution / mental errors and mistakes seemed to be as much the cause of breakdowns as physical talent or players not being suited for the scheme.

So I don't know what we are going to see. I don't think we will truly know until week 1 even. But their underplaying of the NT position does seem as though they don't see themselves NEEDING the typical 0tech body.

Then again, Pete has said that they just don't see big 'talented' NTs as necessary to success in their '3 4' fronts. Is it because we aren't going to run a lot of it? No clue.

All I can say is that I hope that if they are staying the course, that the additional year of experience and new blood are what they need to get over the hump. If you listen to Q Diggs and J Adams, they seem to get what's happening and where things are going. Hopefully the failures have been more mental in nature and the deletion of certain players and the addition of others were the change we need.

This is basically what I'm saying, a more varied and disguised version of Pete's simple cover 3 one high safety scheme.

My point in saying what I said is that IMO fans are too hyper focused on "OMG WHERE'S OUR WAR DADDY NOSE TACKLE!" Most of the really good defenses in the league over the past 3-4 years (Niners, Rams during SB run, Eagles, etc) have employed MANY fronts and schemes to combat the new style of offenses being run.

So it's not as simple as "we switched to a 3-4 and now it's gonna suck cause we got no NT!" Hybrid defenses that can quickly shift and adjust to what the offense is throwing at them, as well as disguise well to attack instead of react is what I think Pete and his coordinators are going for.

 

[keasley45]

This is basically what I'm saying, a more varied and disguised version of Pete's simple cover 3 one high safety scheme.

My point in saying what I said is that IMO fans are too hyper focused on "OMG WHERE'S OUR WAR DADDY NOSE TACKLE!" Most of the really good defenses in the league over the past 3-4 years (Niners, Rams during SB run, Eagles, etc) have employed MANY fronts and schemes to combat the new style of offenses being run.

So it's not as simple as "we switched to a 3-4 and now it's gonna suck cause we got no NT!" Hybrid defenses that can quickly shift and adjust to what the offense is throwing at them, as well as disguise well to attack instead of react is what I think Pete and his coordinators are going for.

Agree, 100%

 

[bileever]

We've been talking as if the defense has been bad for a long, long time, and that narrative isn't completely correct. Yes, last year was terrible--we were 25th in the NFL. But the year before that, in 2021, we were 12th, and 15th before that. So not great, but not terrible, either.

By the same token, we've looked at the 49ers as having a dominant defense, and even though they were number 1 last year, it's not like they've been number 1 for the last 5 years. The year before in 2021 they were 9th, and in 2020 they were 17th.

What goes into the brew that makes a good defense is difficult to determine. You're great one year and then terrible the next. A couple of players can make a huge difference. I guess the point of my post is that it's hard to know what you have until the season starts. It's a cliche, but every season in the NFL you have 32 new teams, no one stays the same.

It's possible that we'll be worse than last year, and the 49ers could be better. I'm sure the 49ers fans think they'll be better after signing Hargrave. But I think it's more likely the 49ers find it hard to maintain their dominance, and that the Seahawks get back to at least being an above average defense.

Here are the rankings for each team for the last 6 years (during the Kyle Shanahan era, based on yards allowed):

Seahawks: 2022-25th, 2021-12th, 2020-17th, 2019-22nd, 2018-11th, 2017-14th.
49ers: 2022-1st, 2021-9th, 2020-17th, 2019-8th, 2018-28th, 2017-25th.

 

[toffee]

Seahawks: 2022-25th, 2021-12th, 2020-17th, 2019-22nd, 2018-11th, 2017-14th.
49ers: 2022-1st, 2021-9th, 2020-17th, 2019-8th, 2018-28th, 2017-25th.

If we could make that jump from 25th to 8th like how the 9ers jumped from 28th (2018) to 8th (2019), we can go deep into the playoffs.

 

[toffee]

This is basically what I'm saying, a more varied and disguised version of Pete's simple cover 3 one high safety scheme.

My point in saying what I said is that IMO fans are too hyper focused on "OMG WHERE'S OUR WAR DADDY NOSE TACKLE!" Most of the really good defenses in the league over the past 3-4 years (Niners, Rams during SB run, Eagles, etc) have employed MANY fronts and schemes to combat the new style of offenses being run.

So it's not as simple as "we switched to a 3-4 and now it's gonna suck cause we got no NT!" Hybrid defenses that can quickly shift and adjust to what the offense is throwing at them, as well as disguise well to attack instead of react is what I think Pete and his coordinators are going for.

100%

 

[keasley45]

If we could make that jump from 25th to 8th like how the 9ers jumped from 28th (2018) to 8th (2019), we can go deep into the playoffs.

If we can do that and the offensive weapons click the way we hope, its a superb owl team.

 

[sutz]

Yeah, I see a lot of posters getting wrapped around the axle on the whole 3-4/4-3 argument, when the reality is a lot more subtle than that. If you're honest and paying attention, which I try to be and do, you realize that nobody runs a "true" 3-4 or 4-3 these days and haven't for quite a few years. Like the argument that the Fangio defense sucks. If it sucks so bad, why are teams moving that way? There's a lot of adaptation and evolution going on in the league which is always out there to some extent.

In any event, I see the team doing a lot of work this offseason trying to get better. And not just on defense. Yeah, they need a lot of work TBS, but they also worked to improve the offense, so the argument I've been making for a few years about the Offense needing to work on fewer 3-and-outs and some longer drives has some merit. Sure, you want the D to get off the field, but you also want your O to STAY ON THE FIELD for more than 2-3 minutes at a pop. Moving on from #3 is a big part of that IMHO.

Oh, and I like the comment above about Pete wanting to leave a mark on the league of some sort that is more than just "he won a lot of games." He's already brought some things in, like his abiltiy to use the taller, bigger corners. Before Sherm and the LOB, the league tended to eschew the bigger corners because supposedly they weren't agile enough or something. Now everybody is looking for those over 6 foot corners to defend the bigger WRs which have been dominating for so long.

Anyway, I'm no expert and I tend to live on cloud 9, but I am looking forward to the next season.

 

[Scout]

Desai showed some quick results when he was a coordinator which is why the Eagles scooped him up so quickly to be their new DC.

Hurtt to me hasn't shown that level of quick success like Desai which is why he is a bigger question mark. But regardless if the Hawks run a 34 two gap, 34 one gap or 43 one gap in the end they needed to upgrade their front seven.

What Hurtt wants to do isn't that complex but more so he wants to have flexibility and disguise what the Hawks are doing. You can still play cover 3 or two high shells but a 34 one gap gives flex in that you have athletes on the edge that can cover the flats which takes away short throws. Those short throws are the key to trying to force a team out of a 2 high safety shell. At that point QB has to audible to a run or make high precision short throws over the middle.

 

[bileever]

Desai showed some quick results when he was a coordinator which is why the Eagles scooped him up so quickly to be their new DC.

Did he though? The Chicago Bears were number 1 in defense in 2018 when Vic Fangio was defensive coordinator. The next season, he left to coach the Denver Broncos. Chuck Pagano took over for Fangio, and pretty much maintained a high level, #4 in 2019 and #14 in 2020. Sean Desai took over in 2021, when Pagano retired, and the Bears fell to number 22 in defense. Of course, it wasn't all Desai's fault--it was the last year of the Matt Nagy regime, and things were starting to fall apart. But to take a top defense and finish at #22 isn't good. And that was his only year as DC. He has a reputation as a wunderkind, but he has yet to prove anything. It will be interesting to see what he does in Philadelphia this year.

(Also, he came to Seattle last year and promptly took the #12 defense and made it the #25 defense in 2022. I really think the jury is still out on Desai.)

 

[BASF]

Did he though? The Chicago Bears were number 1 in defense in 2018 when Vic Fangio was defensive coordinator. The next season, he left to coach the Denver Broncos. Chuck Pagano took over for Fangio, and pretty much maintained a high level, #4 in 2019 and #14 in 2020. Sean Desai took over in 2021, when Pagano retired, and the Bears fell to number 22 in defense. Of course, it wasn't all Desai's fault--it was the last year of the Matt Nagy regime, and things were starting to fall apart. But to take a top defense and finish at #22 isn't good. And that was his only year as DC. He has a reputation as a wunderkind, but he has yet to prove anything. It will be interesting to see what he does in Philadelphia this year.

(Also, he came to Seattle last year and promptly took the #12 defense and made it the #25 defense in 2022. I really think the jury is still out on Desai.)

Injuries to Mack and Trevathan took their toll on that '21 team. Also, their two young corners did not play well. Not to mention that the Fangio system had been figured out by then.

 

[bileever]

Injuries to Mack and Trevathan took their toll on that '21 team. Also, their two young corners did not play well. Not to mention that the Fangio system had been figured out by then.

Yes, I agree with you. And they also traded draft picks to get Justin Fields and then used their first 5 picks on offensive players. BUT, they still had most of their defensive pieces and Roquan Smith had a monster season and was all-pro that year.

Still, I'm just pointing out that Desai has yet to prove anything. The two places where he took over both saw a big drop in defensive production. I can't say that it was because of Desai, but I'm also not one of those that claim Desai is a genius or a defensive guru because he certainly hasn't done anything to warrant that yet.

 

[Scout]

Did he though? The Chicago Bears were number 1 in defense in 2018 when Vic Fangio was defensive coordinator. The next season, he left to coach the Denver Broncos. Chuck Pagano took over for Fangio, and pretty much maintained a high level, #4 in 2019 and #14 in 2020. Sean Desai took over in 2021, when Pagano retired, and the Bears fell to number 22 in defense. Of course, it wasn't all Desai's fault--it was the last year of the Matt Nagy regime, and things were starting to fall apart. But to take a top defense and finish at #22 isn't good. And that was his only year as DC. He has a reputation as a wunderkind, but he has yet to prove anything. It will be interesting to see what he does in Philadelphia this year.

(Also, he came to Seattle last year and promptly took the #12 defense and made it the #25 defense in 2022. I really think the jury is still out on Desai.)

While true the Bears finished 13th in Defensive DVOA that year as far as I remember and that is with all their injuries and turmoil. Also after Desai left the Bears defense worsened. But that can't be pinned all on the new coaches as the Bears were going through a transition year with the arrival of Eberflus. Very similar to what is happening to the Cardinals in 2023 and Gannon.