Russ Tonight

[Ozzy]

It's not every reason to talk against his stats. The problem with your take is the assumption that I have an agenda. I can look at Russ's game as a whole.

You do realize Payton held out signing on with Denver because of Russ, right? He wasn't crazy about working with him. Was he just seeing the negative too?

Seriously. Why was a qb guru not interested in Russ? And before you say it was the year prior that jaded him, he was capable of seeing the promise of Stidham I'm just backup play.

If he's as good as his fans claim, why all the talk about how he's untradable? I mean, a qb who single handedly takes down Mahomes and Allen surely has a bevy of suitors. No?

No.

Somebody tell all those teams that likely wouldnt even sign him to half the number he's making now that they are just blind to how great he is.

He signed and you're argument is he didn't want to sign? He could've gone to multiple places and chose Denver. You're proving my point. He even told Cowherd on his show Russ is an all time great who the current staff was screwing up.

I don't know man it sure feels like you have an agenda when you're strongest argument is some insider rumors that Payton didn't want to coach there yet he is coaching there lol.

Russ for a decade was one of the truly elite players at his position which is the hardest position in all of sprots to excel. This constant need to try to convince people he sucks by some scorned ex fans just seems goofy to me. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he does suck from here on out, I truly don't know but all of this ultra critical crazy standard you guys set for him while setting up a much lower bar for Geno and everyone else is telling. The dude is playing pretty good this year and that's ok, it really is.

 

[Ozzy]

If you take out the contract aspect of Wilson, im pretty sure a lot of teams would trade/replace their current qb w/ Wilson. Maybe even Pete.

Wilson stats
3rd Down - 70.49% completion percentage & rating of 109.9
Redzone - 71.7%(1st), 33cmp(2nd) 193yards(3rd), 15TDs to 0int (1st), Rating 118.5

If Wilson continue to play at this level, i dont see the Broncos cutting Wilson next season. This also could have been all media BS as usual too.

Someone above just told me he watches all the film and that Wilson is worse than Geno on third downs and the red zone lol. Weird.

 

[hoxrox]

Playing calling makes a difference. Payton called a game manager type game for RW to limit his mistakes. Thus the heavy dose of running and the 3.4 yards per pass attempt last night.

And Payton is a better play caller than Waldron, especially in the redzone.

 

[rcaido]

Hackett Broncos was dead last, last season w/ 16.9points
Hackett w/ the Jets is 30th w/ 16points

Wilson majority of his career he had a top 10 offense
This season the Broncos are 15th. Not too bad, their top receiver getting back2back season injury and their TE has been injured since the first game. Mims is pretty good but i think he is in Payton doghouse. Hasn't played much after the Jets game, he was having a very good rookie season before that. Still returning great punts though. They should have traded Jeudy and give Mims his targets.

 

[hawkfan68]

Hackett Broncos was dead last, last season w/ 16.9points
Hackett w/ the Jets is 30th w/ 16points

Wilson majority of his career he had a top 10 offense
This season the Broncos are 15th. Not too bad, their top receiver getting back2back season injury and their TE has been injured since the first game. Mims is pretty good but i think he is in Payton doghouse. Hasn't played much after the Jets game, he was having a very good rookie season before that. Still returning great punts though. They should have traded Jeudy and give Mims his targets.

Imagine what his totals would be if he was throwing to Lockett, DK, and co.

 

[keasley45]

He signed and you're argument is he didn't want to sign? He could've gone to multiple places and chose Denver. You're proving my point. He even told Cowherd on his show Russ is an all time great who the current staff was screwing up.

I don't know man it sure feels like you have an agenda when you're strongest argument is some insider rumors that Payton didn't want to coach there yet he is coaching there lol.

Russ for a decade was one of the truly elite players at his position which is the hardest position in all of sprots to excel. This constant need to try to convince people he sucks by some scorned ex fans just seems goofy to me. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he does suck from here on out, I truly don't know but all of this ultra critical crazy standard you guys set for him while setting up a much lower bar for Geno and everyone else is telling. The dude is playing pretty good this year and that's ok, it really is.

Terry Bradshaw says Sean Payton didn't want Kyler Murray, has 'no choice' but to embrace Russell Wilson

The new Broncos coach is looking to rejuvenate Wilson in 2023

www.cbssports.com

He didn't have a choice. This is well known. Vacancies came down to Denver and Arizona.

I have no agenda. Look back at the posts I made in 2020 and 2021 quoting factual, but far less glamorous stats that are as much a part of his legacy as the TDs and pass completions and were the reason he was the enigma he became here.

I didn't even have to say anything last year.

And honestly, I'm content to just let whoever wants to think he's great, think that. When you actually pose questions as to why he's poor in several statistical categories over his career and how being poor in them (categories that are undeniably tied to overall performance) negatively impacts a team and want to engage in a detailed discussion, you get zero takers and just a bunch of regurgitation of the same Wilson stats. Or, conspiracy theories as to why he is bad, which always revolve around SOMEONE ELSE hurting him (pete, his now 5th play caller, etc). Never a substantive discussion about ALL of the factors at play in evaluating QB performance.

And I have an agenda? If I had an agenda, I would be the one hiding behind conspiracy theories, not the one starting threads about real metrics... key metrics that reflect the overall play of a qb. It's only here, amongst his hardcore fans that objective review is cast aside as dislike.

Simple things like even this year, you know what team averages the fewest plays run per game? Denver. Is there a correlation between offensive effectiveness and plays per game? Sure. You're either clearly in thr group that features a dynamic fast and high scoring offense, or you struggle to do so. Which is Denver?

Or, if you look at their average yards per play over the season vs the last 3 games, which everyone is raving have been Wilsons best, they've gone from 5.2 yards per play to 4.6 over their 'feature wins'. Is that the sign of a team with a qb carrying them? In no universe. NO. It ranks 25th in the league. It's the signature of a team winning around its offense.

Let me say it again. Over their signature wins, their average yards per play is .2 better than the NY Jets at 25th. What does that say? It says they arent winning because of their offense. They are winning because of their coach's strategy to limit mistakes. The only teams worse? Jets, Cards, Panthers, Giants. Not hate, just facts. And not even facts slandering Russ. He's just not carrying the team nor is he playing 'great' ball. He's mastered efficient play. At that, he's on another level.

And yards per play in his signature win vs the Bills? 4.2.

He hasn't passed for more than 200 yards since October 1st and only has 3 games for the year better than 200 yards. Not 300. 200 hundred. With a low of 95. Is that me hating on Russ, or fans elevating great 'manager' performanc to something more?

Again, and this isn't slandering Wilson because he's put up great compl % and TD to INT. But those stats have NEVER been in question with him. Ever.
It's just obvious that his game is being masterfully managed, more than he's found his MOJO.

And shoot, maybe if Sean keeps drilling into him how to just check the ball down l, process defense and refuses to
let him resort to hero ball the way Pete allowed him to here for the next year or two, he'll actually become the player he always fancied himself as. But does his play show that now? No. He's doing well what he's so far capable of in an offense who's ceiling is significantly higher, given the coach, than whats been shown.

Crown him if you want. Makes no difference to me.

 

[knownone]

Yeah I still don't get the Russ hate. That was one of the best throw and catches of the year and on the year Russ is near the top of the league again which is pretty impressive considering how bad last year was. Why Seattle fans can't admit it is goofy. He is prime Russ? No but he's playing pretty damn good football with a much worse supporting cast than Geno has and those same people are falling all over themselves to excuse Geno's play while being ultra critical of Russ and trying to tell me they're not biased about Russ.....Yeah ok dude.

I get why people got pissed about the divorce but at this point who cares.

I think the same is true of Russ supporters. For example, the Broncos have a reasonably talented offense, a top-10 offensive line (they're 8th in pass protection, we're 30th), tons of young and proven talent at their skill positions, and their defense was top-10 last year. Yet Wilson's situation is constantly framed as if he's working with JAGs. Why is that?

 

[CactusJack]

This Geno vs. Russ debate on this forum is really odd.

Geno is a fine bridge QB for a team that's in transition (My view). His current contract reflects that.

This team was not challenging for another Super bowl with Russ. It just wasn't feasible with how the team was constructed.

You may not be a fan of Geno. But everyone here should be absolutely thrilled with the decision. Because it was the right one.

 

[Ozzy]

I think the same is true of Russ supporters. For example, the Broncos have a reasonably talented offense, a top-10 offensive line (they're 8th in pass protection, we're 30th), tons of young and proven talent at their skill positions, and their defense was top-10 last year. Yet Wilson's situation is constantly framed as if he's working with JAGs. Why is that?

Their skill position guys aren’t as good as ours. I’m not sure it’s even close, their line is decent. WR group? Seattle. RB’s? Seattle. Tight ends? Seattle.

Wilson was terrible last year, he’s playing better this year and by most metrics he’s playing better than Geno. It’s ok to admit that. Maybe the rest of the way Geno plays better, I’d be just fine with that as well.

 

[Ozzy]

Terry Bradshaw says Sean Payton didn't want Kyler Murray, has 'no choice' but to embrace Russell Wilson

The new Broncos coach is looking to rejuvenate Wilson in 2023

www.cbssports.com

He didn't have a choice. This is well known. Vacancies came down to Denver and Arizona.

I have no agenda. Look back at the posts I made in 2020 and 2021 quoting factual, but far less glamorous stats that are as much a part of his legacy as the TDs and pass completions and were the reason he was the enigma he became here.

I didn't even have to say anything last year.

And honestly, I'm content to just let whoever wants to think he's great, think that. When you actually pose questions as to why he's poor in several statistical categories over his career and how being poor in them (categories that are undeniably tied to overall performance) negatively impacts a team and want to engage in a detailed discussion, you get zero takers and just a bunch of regurgitation of the same Wilson stats. Or, conspiracy theories as to why he is bad, which always revolve around SOMEONE ELSE hurting him (pete, his now 5th play caller, etc). Never a substantive discussion about ALL of the factors at play in evaluating QB performance.

And I have an agenda? If I had an agenda, I would be the one hiding behind conspiracy theories, not the one starting threads about real metrics... key metrics that reflect the overall play of a qb. It's only here, amongst his hardcore fans that objective review is cast aside as dislike.

Simple things like even this year, you know what team averages the fewest plays run per game? Denver. Is there a correlation between offensive effectiveness and plays per game? Sure. You're either clearly in thr group that features a dynamic fast and high scoring offense, or you struggle to do so. Which is Denver?

Or, if you look at their average yards per play over the season vs the last 3 games, which everyone is raving have been Wilsons best, they've gone from 5.2 yards per play to 4.6 over their 'feature wins'. Is that the sign of a team with a qb carrying them? In no universe. NO. It ranks 25th in the league. It's the signature of a team winning around its offense.

Let me say it again. Over their signature wins, their average yards per play is .2 better than the NY Jets at 25th. What does that say? It says they arent winning because of their offense. They are winning because of their coach's strategy to limit mistakes. The only teams worse? Jets, Cards, Panthers, Giants. Not hate, just facts. And not even facts slandering Russ. He's just not carrying the team nor is he playing 'great' ball. He's mastered efficient play. At that, he's on another level.

And yards per play in his signature win vs the Bills? 4.2.

He hasn't passed for more than 200 yards since October 1st and only has 3 games for the year better than 200 yards. Not 300. 200 hundred. With a low of 95. Is that me hating on Russ, or fans elevating great 'manager' performanc to something more?

Again, and this isn't slandering Wilson because he's put up great compl % and TD to INT. But those stats have NEVER been in question with him. Ever.
It's just obvious that his game is being masterfully managed, more than he's found his MOJO.

And shoot, maybe if Sean keeps drilling into him how to just check the ball down l, process defense and refuses to
let him resort to hero ball the way Pete allowed him to here for the next year or two, he'll actually become the player he always fancied himself as. But does his play show that now? No. He's doing well what he's so far capable of in an offense who's ceiling is significantly higher, given the coach, than whats been shown.

Crown him if you want. Makes no difference to me.

Payton has been asked to come back multiple times. He could’ve waited another year, he had choices but if a terry Bradshaw quote is proof then this is probably a waste of time.

 

[Ozzy]

This Geno vs. Russ debate on this forum is really odd.

Geno is a fine bridge QB for a team that's in transition (My view). His current contract reflects that.

This team was not challenging for another Super bowl with Russ. It just wasn't feasible with how the team was constructed.

You may not be a fan of Geno. But everyone here should be absolutely thrilled with the decision. Because it was the right one.

I’m pro Russ and I still agree with this. We’re not challenging for a SB with Geno either unless he drastically improves but we may be setting ourselves up to compete with the next guy and I’m thrilled about it’s, lots of young talent and we’re heading the right way I think

 

[CactusJack]

I’m pro Russ and I still agree with this. It’s not challenging for a SH with Geno either unless he drastically improves but we may be setting ourselves up to compete with the next guy and I’m thrilled about it’s, lots of young talent and we’re heading the right way I think

Precisely.

This team had plateaued with Russ.

 

[rcaido]

Terry Bradshaw says Sean Payton didn't want Kyler Murray, has 'no choice' but to embrace Russell Wilson

The new Broncos coach is looking to rejuvenate Wilson in 2023

www.cbssports.com

He didn't have a choice. This is well known. Vacancies came down to Denver and Arizona.

I have no agenda. Look back at the posts I made in 2020 and 2021 quoting factual, but far less glamorous stats that are as much a part of his legacy as the TDs and pass completions and were the reason he was the enigma he became here.

I didn't even have to say anything last year.

And honestly, I'm content to just let whoever wants to think he's great, think that. When you actually pose questions as to why he's poor in several statistical categories over his career and how being poor in them (categories that are undeniably tied to overall performance) negatively impacts a team and want to engage in a detailed discussion, you get zero takers and just a bunch of regurgitation of the same Wilson stats. Or, conspiracy theories as to why he is bad, which always revolve around SOMEONE ELSE hurting him (pete, his now 5th play caller, etc). Never a substantive discussion about ALL of the factors at play in evaluating QB performance.

And I have an agenda? If I had an agenda, I would be the one hiding behind conspiracy theories, not the one starting threads about real metrics... key metrics that reflect the overall play of a qb. It's only here, amongst his hardcore fans that objective review is cast aside as dislike.

Simple things like even this year, you know what team averages the fewest plays run per game? Denver. Is there a correlation between offensive effectiveness and plays per game? Sure. You're either clearly in thr group that features a dynamic fast and high scoring offense, or you struggle to do so. Which is Denver?

Or, if you look at their average yards per play over the season vs the last 3 games, which everyone is raving have been Wilsons best, they've gone from 5.2 yards per play to 4.6 over their 'feature wins'. Is that the sign of a team with a qb carrying them? In no universe. NO. It ranks 25th in the league. It's the signature of a team winning around its offense.

Let me say it again. Over their signature wins, their average yards per play is .2 better than the NY Jets at 25th. What does that say? It says they arent winning because of their offense. They are winning because of their coach's strategy to limit mistakes. The only teams worse? Jets, Cards, Panthers, Giants. Not hate, just facts. And not even facts slandering Russ. He's just not carrying the team nor is he playing 'great' ball. He's mastered efficient play. At that, he's on another level.

And yards per play in his signature win vs the Bills? 4.2.

He hasn't passed for more than 200 yards since October 1st and only has 3 games for the year better than 200 yards. Not 300. 200 hundred. With a low of 95. Is that me hating on Russ, or fans elevating great 'manager' performanc to something more?

Again, and this isn't slandering Wilson because he's put up great compl % and TD to INT. But those stats have NEVER been in question with him. Ever.
It's just obvious that his game is being masterfully managed, more than he's found his MOJO.

And shoot, maybe if Sean keeps drilling into him how to just check the ball down l, process defense and refuses to
let him resort to hero ball the way Pete allowed him to here for the next year or two, he'll actually become the player he always fancied himself as. But does his play show that now? No. He's doing well what he's so far capable of in an offense who's ceiling is significantly higher, given the coach, than whats been shown.

Crown him if you want. Makes no difference to me.

The hate is strong with this one.

So last year when Broncos were so horrendous was ranked 15h in plays run compared to this year, i guess they are a better team lol. Seahawks were ranked 30th in plays when we won the Superbowl. Just to go back to your cherry picking play runs. Broncos 3 game winning streak, they have 12 most run plays. They also ranked 5th in Time of Possession. 7th in 3rd down conversions.

 

[keasley45]

Payton has been asked to come back multiple times. He could’ve waited another year, he had choices but if a terry Bradshaw quote is proof then this is probably a waste of time.

As always, if there's evidence to contradict the 'Russ is great' position, its dismissed. Bradshaw and Peyton are good friends.

But i agree. Not worth discussing. never has been.

 

[Rat]

Hard to argue he's not having a good bounce-back season. Glad we're not paying his contract though.

 

[knownone]

Their skill position guys aren’t as good as ours. I’m not sure it’s even close, their line is decent. WR group? Seattle. RB’s? Seattle. Tight ends? Seattle.

Wilson was terrible last year, he’s playing better this year and by most metrics he’s playing better than Geno. It’s ok to admit that. Maybe the rest of the way Geno plays better, I’d be just fine with that as well.

Seattle undoubtedly has better skill-position players. But the question isn't whether Seattle is better; the question is whether the Broncos' unit is much worse since that's how the comparison is presented. On paper, the gap isn't that large when you account for Sutton/Jeudy's performances before Russ arrived. Sutton, for example, made a pro bowl. Jeudy was nearly a 1000-yard receiver as a rookie with Drew Lock. Similarly, are the Seahawks RBs that much better? Javonte Williams is a higher draft pick than Walker and Charbonnet and produced a similar level before his injury last season. He's the same age as Walker. As for O-Line, they are closer to the elite on paper than decent. Is it possible your bias is affecting your analysis? I have a lot of Broncos fans in my life who place their struggles at Russell's feet.

Russell is putting up better TD/INT stats in an offense that asks him to do significantly less than Seattle asks Geno. That's why I'm not too fond of this comparison. He's not playing better than Geno, in my opinion. I don't think his style that relies on the horizontal passing game and low probability throws is conducive to winning football. As a result, I fully expect the Broncos offense to regress since they are +9 in TOs in their 3-game winning streak.

 

[keasley45]

The hate is strong with this one.

So last year when Broncos were so horrendous was ranked 15h in plays run compared to this year, i guess they are a better team lol. Seahawks were ranked 30th in plays when we won the Superbowl. Just to go back to your cherry picking play runs. Broncos 3 game winning streak, they have 12 most run plays. They also ranked 5th in Time of Possession. 7th in 3rd down conversions.

The hate label is old. its just football.

And your response changes the fact that they gain so few yards per play, how (will double check them)? It doesnt. You just ignore it. You are so offended by a critique of the dude you completely miss the point. The team is being managed to win by making the QB position one that is required to not do much but take care of the ball. And btw, their time of possession might be aided by the fact that their average play duration is very high - a direct result of Payton running down the playclock to control the game, limit the oppositions possession - Not that they are stringing together long drives. And if you watch the games, you know that Denver regularly winds the play-clock down.

You just ignore that they've found the most success recently with Russ throwing for less than 200 yards per game. Isnt that manager territory? i mean, seriously, good for him if Sean is getting him up to speed and this is just the process. But he's NOT being asked to carry the team.

In this 'great' season, he's thrown for more than 200 yards 3 times. Nothing about that is bad. Its just managed play.

Check it out. if the stats that i quoted arent indicative of a team NOT relying on the QB to push the offense, than what do they show? It doesnt take rocket science to pair that up with a winning performance that saw Russ throwing only 3 of 12 passes completed beyond the LOS for the entire game ans starting out 3 for 8. If that was Geno Smith doing that, the Russ fanboys would be shouting from the rooftops that all he ever was was a game manager. Russ does it, and hes great, awesome, incredible. Cool. Love him all you want. Free country and all that.

And the Seahawks were ranked 30th in plays run because our offense was known as a 3 and out machine. Remember that? whats your point? And nothing i posted had anything to do with seattle. i'm not waging the Geno vs Russ war.

And as always, any stats, stills, player testimony... anything that plays contrary to the narrative that Russ is great, is cherry picking. So tired.

 

[Ozzy]

Seattle undoubtedly has better skill-position players. But the question isn't whether Seattle is better; the question is whether the Broncos' unit is much worse since that's how the comparison is presented. On paper, the gap isn't that large when you account for Sutton/Jeudy's performances before Russ arrived. Sutton, for example, made a pro bowl. Jeudy was nearly a 1000-yard receiver as a rookie with Drew Lock. Similarly, are the Seahawks RBs that much better? Javonte Williams is a higher draft pick than Walker and Charbonnet and produced a similar level before his injury last season. He's the same age as Walker. As for O-Line, they are closer to the elite on paper than decent. Is it possible your bias is affecting your analysis? I have a lot of Broncos fans in my life who place their struggles at Russell's feet.

Russell is putting up better TD/INT stats in an offense that asks him to do significantly less than Seattle asks Geno. That's why I'm not too fond of this comparison. He's not playing better than Geno, in my opinion. I don't think his style that relies on the horizontal passing game and low probability throws is conducive to winning football. As a result, I fully expect the Broncos offense to regress since they are +9 in TOs in their 3-game winning streak.

Fair enough I’m not going to change your mind. I disagree with most of this and don’t think it’s even all that close as Wilson is playing much better. But this is all subjective and I could be wrong?

 

[knownone]

Fair enough I’m not going to change your mind. I disagree with most of this and don’t think it’s even all that close as Wilson is playing much better. But this is all subjective and I could be wrong?

It's entirely subjective. And you don't have to challenge anything if you don't want to. I'm just providing a counterpoint to what I think is wrong.

Here's what I'll say. It's easy to make statements about who's better without skin in the game. And that's what I feel you and others are doing with Russell. If you genuinely think Russell is a good QB, set expectations for the Broncos. Predict that they'll be anything other than below average; otherwise, you're using cherry-picked stats and your subjective analysis of the Broncos' talent level to excuse the fact their offense is objectively below average. They are 17th in passing efficiency, 18th in success rate, 17th in DVOA, 31st in pass attempts, 29th in passing yards, and 26th in first downs.

 

[LastRideOut]

Russ did this same sh it in Seattle too. One good game, and then we're having the same old conversation over and over. Besides, objectively speaking, Russ followed the same script he always has, throw the high completion percentage passes. Don't throw it into tight windows.

In the end, he still can't anticipate when his WR's will be open, which is why 300 yard games from Russ are so few and far in between. He has three 300 yard games with Denver career. THREE. That's it.

He hasn't broken 200 yards the past five games.

Game manager, is what Russ is right now. He went to Denver with dreams of flinging the ball around for 300+ yards weekly, like Manning, Brady, Mario, all the greats. Didn't happen. Then came Sean Payton, who installed the exact same offense Russ ran in Seattle. Limit the mistakes. Don't lean on Russ to win games. Run the ball.