End of an Era?

[adeltaY]

I don't get the "how are we going to replace Jimmy's TDs" argument. Yes, he is an elite RZ weapon. No, I don't think we should pay him 8M+ APY. Did the Saints fall off a cliff after Jimmy left? Do the Patriots see a dip in RZ success when Gronk inevitably misses time? A bit, yes, but you can't say it stymies their offense to the point where they can't put up points. There is no excuse (barring serious injuries) for not scoring more points than we did this year, even if we lose Jimmy.

As for PRich's six TDs, Lockett only had two TDs this year and I don't see why he can't push that up to five if he's fully healthy next year. Dougie had 8 TDs, it's within the realm of possibility that he gets 10+ next year. Darboh barely played this year and Moore could also get some looks.

The median number of rushing TDs was 12 this year. If we can get to that point, let's say Russ gets two of them, that's 10 from our RBs, which is nine more than this year. Shoot, if we can be an above average running team and get fifteen, that more than makes up for what Graham misses. If we snag a cheap TE in FA and he gets five TDs, that helps chip away.

It comes down to us having a better offense overall. If Shotty can scheme to create some space in the RZ, if our line can run-block, and if we can actually make it to the RZ, we will score more points.

 

[NFSeahawks]

I don't disagree with the larger point that we lack collateral to replace big pieces if they walk.

But we had more success - measured by playoff appearances - in 2015 and 2016 when Graham's touchdown totals were 2 and 6, respectively. Or prior to that when he was in N.O.

My fear isn't losing Graham. My fear is losing Graham and failing to restore the run game at the same time. We can afford one or the other and perhaps be okay scoring-wise, but not both.

That acknowledgment that the offense has not historically, and need not in future, depend on Graham is a fairer reading of those who believe we can afford to lose Graham IMO.

The correlation you're implying isn't really provable. If you really want to try to convince me that we're better off without ten touchdowns (3rd in the league), honestly, you'd better pack a lunch.

I appreciate the criticisms of Graham. But in 2014, everyone was howling for a big red-zone target. That wasn't for no reason. They'll be howling again in 2018, most likely.

A good running game should get you ten Touchdowns a season collectively we had how many from our Running back?

Nice. You got our red-zone production back to...where it was in 2017. Which I think we all agree wasn't enough.

Oh wait, we're not even back there yet...we let Paul Richardson walk, too.

You are way over-valuing Jimmy Graham to this team scoring consistently. Before Graham, we had Lynch and a better offense overall. Hawk45 is correct.

 

[Seahawkfan80]

I don't get the "how are we going to replace Jimmy's TDs" argument. Yes, he is an elite RZ weapon. No, I don't think we should pay him 8M+ APY. Did the Saints fall off a cliff after Jimmy left? Do the Patriots see a dip in RZ success when Gronk inevitably misses time? A bit, yes, but you can't say it stymies their offense to the point where they can't put up points. There is no excuse (barring serious injuries) for not scoring more points than we did this year, even if we lose Jimmy.

.

This is the question of the timeframe. Who cares how we get 10 more touchdowns? Is that gonna win the NFC Wiest? Who knows? The thing about football is winning. If they win with 4 field goals, it is what it took to win. #CAPS FOR JIMMY may win for the short run..and he is a good player, dont get me wrong...but the win is more important than a simple TD concept. Sheesh, sounds like I am in the 5th grade playing baseball dice. Wierd.

 

[KiwiHawk]

There's a bit of marketing involved. We went from a Super Bowl appearance with Holmgren to nearly the worst depths to which this team has ever sunk. From a marketing perspective, we needed to get the fans back. Enter the entusiastic, colourful Carroll and the college rah-rah spirit. Of course the team made a big deal about it and promoted wherever possible the changes - they needed to say "this is not the same team that sucked!".

Also enter Stanford-educated communications major Richard Sherman and his calculated formula of big-mouth shock value, controversy, and sensationalism backed up by solid on-field play that would earn him natinoal brand recognition. Smooth it all down once the brand is established and it's now a marketable commodity. Well played, sir.

Then we get to a Super Bowl. The media wants to know everything about everybody. The national press wants stories. Everyone wants a new angle, even if it's just a nickname to write a story about. We never had those issues when we were in "Egypt".

Earl is fiesty, but not much different to the average NFL defensive back. Kam is a hard hitter - does his talking on the field. The Other Guy of the Legion of Boom was always the CB opposite Sherman, whoever that was this week. Not much to write home about, but with Sherman's brand and the Legion of Boom monicker, now you have something marketable.

Wilson the robot - efficient but emotionless. Marshawn the silent. Bennet the brash. All were characters who didn't really stand out on their own, but they put up the numbers and got the fame that came along with it.

It's no different from any era of Seahawks football. There have always been personalities. During the Holmgren era there was Hasselbeck the Clown, Walter Jones the rock, Hutchinson the barbarian, Alexander the clean-cut god-boy. Hamlin the wrecking ball. Before them it was The Tez, The Boz, or Zorn and Largent forming the whitebread sandwich.

The Enforcer. Nuff said.

Only back in the old days and though the Dark Years we were not good enough to merit national recognition. Kreig never stole the spotlight because there was Elway, and Stabler, and Fouts, and they were all much more colourful.

 

[RussB]

I have a question about kam. What happens if he cant play next season? Is he put on IR again or does he retire? Im pretty sure he would want his money from his new contract.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Who cares how we get 10 more touchdowns?

The front office, hopefully.

Go back and look at our dismal first-half offensive stats and tell me those wins will come without touchdowns. We need double-digit touchdowns ON TOP of Jimmy's in order to be a playoff offense. It would be nice if we could find a more complete player for cheaper, but the character of this draft and your precious Duane Brown have heavily handicapped the team's flexibility in that regard.

One second you're all complaining that we wouldn't have been a worthy playoff team even if we squeaked in. The next minute you're waving off sixteen touchdowns because some neckbeard on Twitter has convinced you that it's smarter to talk dollar signs and value assessments than, y'know, scoring points.

Which is it?

 

[DomeHawk]

It's no different from any era of Seahawks football. There have always been personalities.

I get what you're saying but I completely disagree, there has NEVER been a group of personalities like this one. I have been a fan and lived in Seattle since Day 1 and the players under Patera, Knox, and even Holmgren would never have been able to be this open in their opinions. It is largely due to the culture of this current administration and ownership.

 

[original poster]

I have a question about kam. What happens if he cant play next season? Is he put on IR again or does he retire? Im pretty sure he would want his money from his new contract.

See the Kam thread on here. It goes into quite a bit of detail about the options for Kam.

 

[olyfan63]

Richardson was a response to McDowell's ATV accident. It's hard to criticize them for that.

Brown was the kind of move that I was critical of at the time, and still am. We lost two high picks for one player who didn't - couldn't - improve the offense all on his own. It was not a good move and could well go a long ways towards a down year.

Where I'll disagree with Dome was Lacy, Joeckel, and Walsh signings. Those were bad.

Maybe not just using tunnel vision on that alone. However it is very easy to criticize using our top pick on a red flag player that ended up costing a chain reaction of another signing and more draft losses because the guy took himself out for somewhere between 1 year and forever. There are many great players we passed on to make this move.

They need to take quality lower risk players in early rounds and save the red flag risks for later rounds IMO.

McDowell has been a disaster of a pick. But Frank Clark was not.

Therein lies the dilemma.

Frank Clark was not a red flag player except for the SJW/PC crowd.
By that point the Seahawks organization, courtesy of the Percy Harvin experience, got much better at recognizing personality disorders (such as Borderline Personality Disorder), and was able to identify that Clark was the "normal one" in a situation that had all the hallmarks of involving personality disorder issues. So the only actual red flag issues involved the team dealing with PR, never issues with Clark's effort, desire, ability, teammate qualities, and NFL-level smarts.

This McDowell character, however, is looking pretty sketchy at this point. Pete and the team leaders might still be able to reach him and help him mature if they can get him physically participating in actual football activities.

 

[Uncle Si]

I don’t know what SJW/PC means. Frank Clark was arrested for a violent crime. That’s a red flag. The Seahawks went forward anyways.

This is not an argument of semantics or a debate on his personality. That was an event that caused alarm regarding his future in the NFL.

 

[Seahawkfan80]

I don’t know what SJW/PC means. Frank Clark was arrested for a violent crime. That’s a red flag. The Seahawks went forward anyways.

This is not an argument of semantics or a debate on his personality. That was an event that caused alarm regarding his future in the NFL.

Just answering this bolded point....Social Justice Warrior/Political Correct.


Carry on.

 

[Seahawkfan80]

Who cares how we get 10 more touchdowns?

The front office, hopefully.

Go back and look at our dismal first-half offensive stats and tell me those wins will come without touchdowns. We need double-digit touchdowns ON TOP of Jimmy's in order to be a playoff offense. It would be nice if we could find a more complete player for cheaper, but the character of this draft and your precious Duane Brown have heavily handicapped the team's flexibility in that regard.

One second you're all complaining that we wouldn't have been a worthy playoff team even if we squeaked in. The next minute you're waving off sixteen touchdowns because some neckbeard on Twitter has convinced you that it's smarter to talk dollar signs and value assessments than, y'know, scoring points.

Which is it?

I believe the front office did address it in a fashion. They got rid of some personnel that were not up to par. Heck, some were not even up to double bogey.

One of the things I saw in the last 2 years is that if something is working, go away from it and enforce your attitude on the other team. Dont keep what is working going, do something else so that the team can lose. In a way enforcing your will on the other team sometimes works if all the parts of that team effort are in sync. If they are not in sync, then you have a recipe for disaster. That is what we had with some of the chaotic plays last year and the year prior. Instead of playing dodge ball offensively, we were playing dodge the ball offensively.

So as to my point, I think there is a plan to get the game back and keep the fans amused for the 3-4 hours a weekend. I think they have the tools minus 3 which can be had in the draft. Do I know what 3? Nope....but they are there. Diamonds in the rough are one of the keys our team has available. One of them diamonds may be on the team and can equate them 10 tds or at least get us close enough for them to use unused talent to effect that change in td percentage.

 

[Uncle Si]

I don’t know what SJW/PC means. Frank Clark was arrested for a violent crime. That’s a red flag. The Seahawks went forward anyways.

This is not an argument of semantics or a debate on his personality. That was an event that caused alarm regarding his future in the NFL.

Just answering this bolded point....Social Justice Warrior/Political Correct.


Carry on.

So it means nothing then...

Appreciate the clarity

 

[olyfan63]

I don’t know what SJW/PC means. Frank Clark was arrested for a violent crime. That’s a red flag. The Seahawks went forward anyways.

This is not an argument of semantics or a debate on his personality. That was an event that caused alarm regarding his future in the NFL.

Just answering this bolded point....Social Justice Warrior/Political Correct.


Carry on.

So it means nothing then...

Appreciate the clarity

In practice it often means that if there is a female accusation, any male involved is automatically presumed to be wrong, violent, and evil, and attempts by said male to clear his name can be expected to take a long time, a lot of money spent on attorneys, and there will still be a segment of the population that will refuse to believe his (truthful) side, in the absence of video evidence. See: Duke Lacrosse, and numerous other cases. Or spend a morning watching the family court docket at a nearby courthouse, and note the attention paid to gender equity, making sure all males are treated fairly, and that no gender bias against males is perceptible.

It's not my intent to start a non-football related thread here; there were a bunch of Frank Clark threads at the time he was drafted, and I and others shared plenty in those extensive discussions.

The point is that the Seahawks have extensive investigative resources at their disposal, and it's a safe bet they fully deployed them to get to the bottom of alleged "character issues" with Clark prior to drafting him. The Seahawks decided to draft Clark and endure the P.R. poopstorm they knew would follow. I think most would agree he's earned his keep as a player.

There is no SJW/PC angle for the McDowell situation. Just youth and stupidity. We can only hope he has a fire and passion to play the game, thoug his arrest in Atlanta in December doesn't inspire confidence. Video evidence there of McDowell using abusive language towards a female police officer and a black officer as well, and acting like an all-around stupid a-hole. Fire and passion for the game? Doug Baldwin and Richard Sherman are excellent examples of that. Can only hope some rubs off. It's hard to know if McDowell's December arrest in Atlanta for drunken stupidity reflects his character before the ATV accident head injury. Head injuries can and often do change people's personality.

Pete Carroll is not unique in the NFL in liking to bring in players who were team captains in high school and college, but I recall reading somewhere that Seattle is near the top in this regard. A few random "did you know" team captains in college include Tyler Lockett, Joey Hunt, and Chris Carson. This team will need lots of leaders from within to get back to being a playoff caliber team.

 

[Uncle Si]

It sounds like a ridiculous internet term for setting ones own personal agenda into a conversation.

However, moving on... Frank Clark was arrested for DV. That is a red flag. If you claim that PC and JS did their homework on him (they must have, because they don't seem naive enough to assume the mantra of the acronym you referred to) then surely they did the same with McDowell. These coaches do not succumb to "angles."

They both are inherent risks. Trying to brush away the risk of one as some social agenda is disingenuous and assumptive.

 

[chris98251]

When we drafted Clark they had said they did extensive homework and interviews and hired some investigators. They knew the backlash that would or could happen if they were wrong.

 

[Uncle Si]

When we drafted Clark they had said they did extensive homework and interviews and hired some investigators. They knew the backlash that would or could happen if they were wrong.

Right..

So you would think they did the same with McDowell.

 

[chris98251]

They looked into how he was playing in the wrong position, they knew he was young, the ATV thing I think was more unfortunate situation and the arrest a dumb kid with a lot of money trying to throw his weight around. He may not have had the chance to go to the seminars the NFL sends players to and get some good mentorship because of the accident also.

I know the talked to him about his supposedly lacking effort, it was more related to a coaching situation and change. So there was an effort there.

 

[olyfan63]

It sounds like a ridiculous internet term for setting ones own personal agenda into a conversation.

However, moving on... Frank Clark was arrested for DV. That is a red flag. If you claim that PC and JS did their homework on him (they must have, because they don't seem naive enough to assume the mantra of the acronym you referred to) then surely they did the same with McDowell. These coaches do not succumb to "angles."

They both are inherent risks. Trying to brush away the risk of one as some social agenda is disingenuous and assumptive.

So we're into name calling and insults now? "Disingenuous and assumptive"? Really? Whatever... Especially when it seems we basically agree on nearly all points.

JS/PC knew there would be an SJW/PC poopstorm if they drafted Clark, a PR situation to "manage" for a while. And there absolutely was. The local networks brought up Clark's DV allegation several times every game for much of the first year.

Let's set the DV aspect aside for a moment; I'd forgotten there was another huge issue with Clark where he went into someone's home and jacked their MacBook Air laptop between his freshman and sophomore years. He got rung up on a felony on that one. I'll grant red flag status for that. Especially since there was an actual conviction. (Clark plea-bargained, admitted guilt, sentence gave him one more chance and eventually a clean slate if he kept his nose clean for years)

Back to DV for a moment; Clark's girlfriend gave off all the vibes of a person with a personality disorder, basically, a crazy chick who would freak out and physically attack him, leaving him the choice of whether to let her pound away and scratch and bite and claw him. There are actually many women like that, whether you have personally experienced that or not. My guess is that Clark did grab her and throw her off him. With his strength, she'd probably fly across the room, hitting the wall. I wouldn't be surprised if she came at him 3 or 4 times like that. Who is the guilty party, the smaller person initiating an assault, or the one who defends himself from the assault? In the SJW/PC world, the man is always wrong and must be jailed, charged, and found guilty. But wait, what if the smaller person initiating the assaults is male?
BTW, they did ring up Clark for Disorderly Conduct on that one.

Anyway, on the positive side of the character ledger, Clark did punch Germain Ifedi in the mouth in training camp this year during pass-rushing drills. So there is that in his favor. Bloodied Ifedi up to where he had to leave the field. Well, maybe not a positive, if it's to the point of incapacitating teammates. Oh yeah, and there was an SJW/PC-ish writer, this article here, http://thebiglead.com/2017/08/03/frank- ... -seahawks/ who insisted the Hawks should cut Clark. (to be immediately snapped up by other teams)

I wouldn't be surprised if Pete and John saw Malik McDowell as Frank Clark 2.0, or Bruce Irvin 2.0
He still could be. However, one rap whispered against McDowell was "lacking effort at times". "Lacking effort" is something I have NEVER, EVER heard about Frank Clark, or for that matter, Bruce Irvin. So that part does worry me a little.

 

[Sign37now]

I'm kind of resigning myself to no playoffs in 2018 at this point. I realize it's crazy premature to do that before the draft and free agency, but Seattle went win-now with the Duane Brown trade and injury replacement signings and it's left them in a pickle. They don't have a lot of collateral to replace all the talent they'll be offloading, and everyone is obsessed with the idea that saved money will run out onto the field by itself and score Jimmy Graham's touchdowns for him.

The point about the win-now philosophy that characterized last year is spot-on AND you know, unlike the previous year, I can't fault them for any of the moves they made. I was so excited when we got Sheldon Richardson and then Duane Brown, I really thought they were the missing pieces. In fact, just about all the moves they made last year, Bradley McDougald etc., were excellent, it just didn't work out with all the injuries and disappointing running back play.

And let's not forget a kicker who can't hit the ocean from a boat!