Hawks should impose a deadline w/ Kam

[CodeWarrior]

Tell him he shows up by X date or they will collect on the bill. Every once in awhile a public execution is needed.

Save it for people who don't have as much value to the team in every aspect.

Convenient, but you just can't run an organization with that mindset. As the players like to say, "This is business." Yes, exactly. This is business. You agreed to the terms collectively bargained by YOUR union. If you don't like it, take it up with your union representative, not the team.

The benefit of being the front office is you can arbitrarily negotiate with players on a 1 v 1 basis according to their value to the team.

Also, this is exactly the same argument as mortgage default and delinquency - some hardass is going to chime in that "there's a contract and the debtor should just live up to the contract they sign". Except, ya know, default is covered in the contract just as hold outs and the attendant repercussions are in Kam's contract.

I know that I'm the odd man out here in not being mad at Kam but I just don't see the point in a "tough daddy" routine with him specifically because of his on field presence and essential personality in the lockeroom.

I'd like him suited up just as much as anyone else but these fanfic front office schemes you guys are pondering just seem like you're defaulting back to how you treat recalcitrant teenagers and ne'er do wells. Kam is neither, he has bonafide value to the team and he obviously has leverage - no one person could possibly command this kind of hand wringing about his absence and what example needs to be made if they werent worth it.

You take the "tough daddy" approach because you have to, not necessarily because you want to. The fine language was written in to the last CBA as an attempt to do away with these contract holdouts. They are unwanted and unappealing to the NFL viewing audience and participating parties. They are bad for business. Apart from that, how Kam is handled obviously sets a precedent concerning treatment of player contracts within the Seahawks organization. Fielding a consistently strong roster comes down to predictability in terms of overall budgeting and payout structure. If you rework in-progress contracts, you can just throw predictability out the window. This is why I believe the Seahawks erred when they failed to fine Kam from day one. As I said earlier, it should be organizational policy to collect fines on the days they are accrued, regardless of the player or his perceived standing in the locker room.

With that being said, I do sympathize with Kam in that he has no remaining guaranteed money due after this season. That is not a concern the Seahawks can afford to share, however. It can only be truly addressed by instituting fully guaranteed contracts in the next CBA, but until then, fines and penalties must be blindly applied. Only way the team can operate fairly, and at maximum efficiency.

 

[Bobblehead]

I really thought what John Clayton said made a lot of sense.

I'ts not that Kam wants more money necessarily, he doesn't want to be a CAP casualty next year.

It's a very real possibility, especially if Kam is injured and perhaps a step slower.

Clayton seems to think Kam wants next years Salary guaranteed.

This may not be the whole story, but it makes sense to me. Clayton goes on though and says, no way will Hawks give him the guarantee for fear that it would set a new precedent to others.

 

[Northwest Seahawk]

You all can say what you want but if Kam doesn't play the Seahawks chances of a return to the Super Bowl this year are greatly diminished . If this was a support player like Baldwin or Kearse I could understand the well we'll just fine him screw you attitude some of you have but we are not we are talking about the best SS in football. This is the wrong player at the wrong time to make a point with. I don't know how this will play out maybe a hardline approach will work but it could just as easily lead to Kam being traded . If this goes into the regular season and nothing is done I think Kam will likely be traded in the next off season and may never play another down here. That's not an acceptable outcome for this fan . They should just give him some more guaranteed money out of the existing contract this year then start preparing to trade him in the off season if they have to. I'm already concerned about this teams chances this year take Kam out of the equation and a down year is a real possibility. The Rams are better and Arizona is relatively healthy now , there will be some very tough division games this season.

 

[HawksFan81]

I still think he may be hiding an injury.

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

You all can say what you want but if Kam doesn't play the Seahawks chances of a return to the Super Bowl this year are greatly diminished . If this was a support player like Baldwin or Kearse I could understand the well we'll just fine him screw you attitude some of you have but we are not we are talking about the best SS in football. This is the wrong player at the wrong time to make a point with. I don't know how this will play out maybe a hardline approach will work but it could just as easily lead to Kam being traded . If this goes into the regular season and nothing is done I think Kam will likely be traded in the next off season and may never play another down here. That's not an acceptable outcome for this fan . They should just give him some more guaranteed money out of the existing contract this year then start preparing to trade him in the off season if they have to. I'm already concerned about this teams chances this year take Kam out of the equation and a down year is a real possibility. The Rams are better and Arizona is relatively healthy now , there will be some very tough division games this season.

I don't think anyone's saying we're just fine without Kam.

...........and your solution probably has already been tried by Schneider. The problem is Kam doesn't just want his current contract re-worked to give him more money now, it sounds like he wants an entire new deal.

If it was just moving money around like Marshawn, it would have already happened.

 

[Northwest Seahawk]

I still think he may be hiding an injury.

I was thinking the same thing.

Apparently his agent has come out swinging this morning guys this is about money pure and simple.

 

[Northwest Seahawk]

You all can say what you want but if Kam doesn't play the Seahawks chances of a return to the Super Bowl this year are greatly diminished . If this was a support player like Baldwin or Kearse I could understand the well we'll just fine him screw you attitude some of you have but we are not we are talking about the best SS in football. This is the wrong player at the wrong time to make a point with. I don't know how this will play out maybe a hardline approach will work but it could just as easily lead to Kam being traded . If this goes into the regular season and nothing is done I think Kam will likely be traded in the next off season and may never play another down here. That's not an acceptable outcome for this fan . They should just give him some more guaranteed money out of the existing contract this year then start preparing to trade him in the off season if they have to. I'm already concerned about this teams chances this year take Kam out of the equation and a down year is a real possibility. The Rams are better and Arizona is relatively healthy now , there will be some very tough division games this season.

I don't think anyone's saying we're just fine without Kam.

...........and your solution probably has already been tried by Schneider. The problem is Kam doesn't just want his current contract re-worked to give him more money now, it sounds like he wants an entire new deal.

If it was just moving money around like Marshawn, it would have already happened.

Do we have any confirmation on that or are you guessing. I see on another post your firmly on the Seahawks side whatever that means so I'm going to say you are guessing .

 

[Basis4day]

I still think he may be hiding an injury.

I was thinking the same thing.

Apparently his agent has come out swinging this morning guys this is about money pure and simple.

The team knew he was hurt before the SB. He would have been evaluated during OTAs and all reports were that he looked and felt great. Assuming he got a new deal he would again have to pass a physical.

I don't understand the assumption that he is hiding an injury.

 

[mrt144]

If you were the Hawks GM, how many regular season games does Kam have to hold out for before you start shopping him around the league? 4 games? Or would you just let him continue to sit out even if he ends up missing the entire season in the hope that he eventually returns and to make a point that your team will stand firm in its contact position.

Unless some team offers a late 1st or early 2nd round pick for Kam, I'd let him continue to hold out without trying to trade him.

If I were the Hawks GM, I would do nothing. No trade. No contract restructure. Whatever you do, you are setting a precedent of "dealing with a terrorist" and then the rest of the "terrorists" will come out of the woodwork.

I would tell Kam to keep sitting out, we will do a "next man up". Yes, I know there is no equivalent to Kam, but there is a "next man" and you got to do the best with what you got.

I don't know if I would ultimately collect on the fines, definitely holding back the game checks once the season starts will be plenty.

Terrorist? Really? Byau, you are usually more level headed. I would tell Kam I love him, but I can't restructure. I hope you come back and play. No hard feelings. Hugs all around.

The attitude of never negotiating with terrorists because of some positive feedback mechanism that encourages more terrorism doesn't even attempt to remediate the initial causes of terrorism which is often times a lack of compelling viable alternatives and a sense of belonging.

As I keep repeating, JS simply rebuffs anyone by pointing out how no two players are the same when it comes to 'value' based on the competing needs of the team itself, the availability of alternatives in the open market, and the competition from other teams for those limited alternatives.

"I want Kam's deal"
"But you aren't him, so what can you do?"

 

[gowazzu02]

IF Seattle gives in... you know what happens next off season? Sherman and ET are holding out with 3 years left. Mike Bennett is holding out with 2 years left etc. etc. etc.

 

[HawkGA]

I hate to say it but I have to agree. Kam and/or his agent seem to be suffering from certain illusions (such as the Seahawks are Cap-Rich which simply isn't true).

I would make the deadline the first week of the season. Get in by then, or:

1. The Seahawks will formally demand all accrued fines.
2. The Seahawks will explore a trade....if a trade can't be finalized by week 9 and Kam is still a no-show, then he'll be cut.

Demand the fines sure, but trading him or cutting him makes literally no sense whatsoever. As long as he's not showing up, he's not getting paid.. so really the only thing the Seahawks lose is not having Kam Chancellor on the field. But why enable his exit just because he's pouting about a deal he just signed 2 years ago? If he wants to hold out, so be it, the Seahawks control his career until he decides he wants to return

Well the reason I suggest trading him or even outright cutting him is because sometimes public executions are needed, and unfortunately this seems to be such a case. If one of us tried doing what Kam is in our jobs we'd be fired (at the very least). If Kam thinks he's worth 10mil/yr to the rest of the NFL, he's in for a VERY rude awakening. Outside Seattle, Kam is a tweener and a tweener coming of an injury at that. On the open market, I think he's be lucky to get HALF of his current contract let alone what he wants.

So fine. Call his bluff. Tell him in the rudest way possible that no he's not irreplaceable, and that the 'hawks WILL replace him ideally by trade (getting something is better than nothing), but by cutting if need be. I'd also play Patriot style hardball as well by trading or cutting him by week nine so he CAN'T accrue an earned season if he continues to hold out.

I would make the deadline the first regular season game. Tell him point blank, if he's not there by then, he's no longer a Seahawk....one way or another. Yes, that more like what Patriots would do, but sometimes in order to be nice, you have to show your teeth once in a while. This IMHO is such a case.

You do understand that isn't calling his bluff, right? He would just go out and sign with another team and get a new signing bonus.

 

[Northwest Seahawk]

IF Seattle gives in... you know what happens next off season? Sherman and ET are holding out with 3 years left. Mike Bennett is holding out with 2 years left etc. etc. etc.

Can you prove that or are you guessing answer your guessing . Let's worry about next year next year unless your more concerned about making a point than winning football games.

 

[Basis4day]

If you were the Hawks GM, how many regular season games does Kam have to hold out for before you start shopping him around the league? 4 games? Or would you just let him continue to sit out even if he ends up missing the entire season in the hope that he eventually returns and to make a point that your team will stand firm in its contact position.

Unless some team offers a late 1st or early 2nd round pick for Kam, I'd let him continue to hold out without trying to trade him.

If I were the Hawks GM, I would do nothing. No trade. No contract restructure. Whatever you do, you are setting a precedent of "dealing with a terrorist" and then the rest of the "terrorists" will come out of the woodwork.

I would tell Kam to keep sitting out, we will do a "next man up". Yes, I know there is no equivalent to Kam, but there is a "next man" and you got to do the best with what you got.

I don't know if I would ultimately collect on the fines, definitely holding back the game checks once the season starts will be plenty.

Terrorist? Really? Byau, you are usually more level headed. I would tell Kam I love him, but I can't restructure. I hope you come back and play. No hard feelings. Hugs all around.

The attitude of never negotiating with terrorists because of some positive feedback mechanism that encourages more terrorism doesn't even attempt to remediate the initial causes of terrorism which is often times a lack of compelling viable alternatives and a sense of belonging.

As I keep repeating, JS simply rebuffs anyone by pointing out how no two players are the same when it comes to 'value' based on the competing needs of the team itself, the availability of alternatives in the open market, and the competition from other teams for those limited alternatives.

"I want Kam's deal"
"But you aren't him, so what can you do?"

So, in this thread we now have analogies to public executions and terrorism due to a business negotiation.

 

[mrt144]

IF Seattle gives in... you know what happens next off season? Sherman and ET are holding out with 3 years left. Mike Bennett is holding out with 2 years left etc. etc. etc.

You don't think it's possible Bennett will hold out regardless?
You don't think ET and Sherman will try to vy for an extension with 2 years left regardless of Kam?

This is like ascribing the sun rise to the rooster's crow not the rotation of the earth.

 

[mrt144]

So, in this thread we now have analogies to public executions and terrorism due to a business negotiation.

This is what forums were made for, right?

 

[Northwest Seahawk]

Tell him he shows up by X date or they will collect on the bill. Every once in awhile a public execution is needed.[/quote

Thank God no one listens to you.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

You all can say what you want but if Kam doesn't play the Seahawks chances of a return to the Super Bowl this year are greatly diminished . If this was a support player like Baldwin or Kearse I could understand the well we'll just fine him screw you attitude some of you have but we are not we are talking about the best SS in football. This is the wrong player at the wrong time to make a point with. I don't know how this will play out maybe a hardline approach will work but it could just as easily lead to Kam being traded . If this goes into the regular season and nothing is done I think Kam will likely be traded in the next off season and may never play another down here. That's not an acceptable outcome for this fan . They should just give him some more guaranteed money out of the existing contract this year then start preparing to trade him in the off season if they have to. I'm already concerned about this teams chances this year take Kam out of the equation and a down year is a real possibility. The Rams are better and Arizona is relatively healthy now , there will be some very tough division games this season.

I don't think anyone's saying we're just fine without Kam.

...........and your solution probably has already been tried by Schneider. The problem is Kam doesn't just want his current contract re-worked to give him more money now, it sounds like he wants an entire new deal.

If it was just moving money around like Marshawn, it would have already happened.

Do we have any confirmation on that or are you guessing. I see on another post your firmly on the Seahawks side whatever that means so I'm going to say you are guessing .

Of course.............. we're all guessing.

But Schneider's a very progressive forward thinking GM. I highly doubt he's told Kam to just get lost, pretty sure he's tried to rework his current contract to give Kam more money this year with the promise that if Kam stays healthy and has a great year we'll look at a new deal next year.

What's the only reason the holdout has lasted so long? Only reason I can think of is Kam wants a brand new deal. If it was just making a couple accounting moves within his current deal? Like I said, he'd be in camp.

 

[themunn]

Even if Kam decides to hold out all season, wouldn't the 'Hawks still own his rights?

I don't see that Kam has any choices besides play or retire.

What Kam can do (and it's really his last best play) is to hold out until week 10, and then play the last six games to get an accrued year....and then threaten to do it again. Essentially, "Pay me or lose without me". The problem I have with this, is while I value Kam and think the team is better with Kam, I do NOT think he is absolutely essential or irreplaceable. I think not having him would cost us a couple of games, but that's not a disaster.....and outside of Seattle's system, the harsh reality is that Kam is a tweener...and a tweener coming off an injury at that. He's already making about the best Strong Safety money in the NFL. It's difficult to see how he'd get more elsewhere even if he were able to ask.

The reality is that the Eagles are paying Byron Maxwell $10.5m APY. If you don't think there's a team out there with serious lack of talent and massive amounts of cap space happy to pay $7m for the best player at his position in the league you are quite simply mistaken

 

[hawknation2015]

IF Seattle gives in... you know what happens next off season? Sherman and ET are holding out with 3 years left. Mike Bennett is holding out with 2 years left etc. etc. etc.

You don't think it's possible Bennett will hold out regardless?
You don't think ET and Sherman will try to vy for an extension with 2 years left regardless of Kam?

This is like ascribing the sun rise to the rooster's crow not the rotation of the earth.

Bennett could have held out, after voicing displeasure with his contract for months, but didn't.

Kam's tactic was interesting in that he was not public about wanting a new contract. I wonder how long the team knew and whether they would have drafted some kind of insurance (like they did with Clark after Bennett indicated that he might hold out) or perhaps re-signed Jeron Johnson.

He has left us in a terrible position at strong safety, having to rely on a bunch of young undrafted players.

 

[Polaris]

I hate to say it but I have to agree. Kam and/or his agent seem to be suffering from certain illusions (such as the Seahawks are Cap-Rich which simply isn't true).

I would make the deadline the first week of the season. Get in by then, or:

1. The Seahawks will formally demand all accrued fines.
2. The Seahawks will explore a trade....if a trade can't be finalized by week 9 and Kam is still a no-show, then he'll be cut.

Demand the fines sure, but trading him or cutting him makes literally no sense whatsoever. As long as he's not showing up, he's not getting paid.. so really the only thing the Seahawks lose is not having Kam Chancellor on the field. But why enable his exit just because he's pouting about a deal he just signed 2 years ago? If he wants to hold out, so be it, the Seahawks control his career until he decides he wants to return

Well the reason I suggest trading him or even outright cutting him is because sometimes public executions are needed, and unfortunately this seems to be such a case. If one of us tried doing what Kam is in our jobs we'd be fired (at the very least). If Kam thinks he's worth 10mil/yr to the rest of the NFL, he's in for a VERY rude awakening. Outside Seattle, Kam is a tweener and a tweener coming of an injury at that. On the open market, I think he's be lucky to get HALF of his current contract let alone what he wants.

So fine. Call his bluff. Tell him in the rudest way possible that no he's not irreplaceable, and that the 'hawks WILL replace him ideally by trade (getting something is better than nothing), but by cutting if need be. I'd also play Patriot style hardball as well by trading or cutting him by week nine so he CAN'T accrue an earned season if he continues to hold out.

I would make the deadline the first regular season game. Tell him point blank, if he's not there by then, he's no longer a Seahawk....one way or another. Yes, that more like what Patriots would do, but sometimes in order to be nice, you have to show your teeth once in a while. This IMHO is such a case.

You do understand that isn't calling his bluff, right? He would just go out and sign with another team and get a new signing bonus.

He's bluffing (either that or he's lost all contact with reality). The reality is that as much as we love him and he's important here, Kam is a TWEENER and he's not a good Strong Safety fit anywhere else except maybe Jacksonville (who uses the same defense we do). Not only that but Kam is already earning just about the most money a strong safety in the NFL can earn AND he's coming off an injury.

What makes you think he'll make anywhere close to what he's making now with any other NFL club (in face he'll be lucky IMO to make much more than half).