Is it arrogance?

[bmorepunk]

This only works if we constantly make good moves like the Pats do.

They don't consistently make good moves. They're slightly better at it than most front offices. They're really good at playing the volume/undrafted free agent/damaged player game. But they're really not that great at drafting or signing top free agents.

1st/2nd Round Whiffs:
Chad Jackson
Ras-I Dowling
Dominque Easley
Terrance Wheatley
Bethel Johnson
Ron Bryce
Laurence Maroney

Free Agency/Resigning Whiffs:
Adalius Thomas
Shawn Springs
Jonathan Fanene
Leigh Bodden
Chad Brown
Joey Galloway
Deltha O'Neal

 

[Seymour]

Who has New England signed?

Do they fail yearly also?

No, the Pats go to the Superbowl yearly. We haven't been in how many years? Just cause this strategy works for the Pats doesn't mean it works for us. Look at our downward trajectory. Pete and John have lost their magic.

Or possibly it was more luck + McCloughan. Do you really take Russell in the 3rd if you knew how well he would turn out and sign Flynn to a sizeable deal? Nope. Do you really take Sherman in the 5th if you know he has top 3 corner potential? Nope. Do you really not bother to draft Baldwin knowing how he'd turn out? Nope. Do you really take Kam Chancellor in the 5th knowing how he'd turn out? Nope.

Our drafting still is not bad, it's just not hitting near the level of all pro's that brought us the hardware.

You compared our strategy to that of the Pats. This only works if we constantly make good moves like the Pats do. And we don't. You make a good point, we most likely got lucky with those picks we made in the early years of this regime. Since than the moves that the Hawks have been made have been atrocious, but everyone hangs on to the couple years where we got lucky. It's just ridiculous to compare us to the Pats when you look at the difference between these franchises since THAT PLAY. We have been slowly falling apart and everyone clings to the good moves the team made five years ago to prove that this regime still has it. They don't and, maybe regarding your point, they never really did.

I only did that more toward the OP that indicates us staying out of it would in itself prohibit us from competing. The Pats are proof that is not the case. I agree, we are not them, and they have a greater advantage to signing good players for less than we do. I do believe we will be active in FA soon for the bargain players. The better teams do tend to use that 2nd wave better than the bottom feeders overpaying top FA early on.

 

[TwistedHusky]

I am confused.

Are we upset we are not spending in a frothy FA market or making ill-advised trades?

Isn't that behavior in the past the very root of some of our recent problems?

Cary Williams
Luke Joekel
Eddie Lacey
..... there is a long list of guys we paid lots for that had problems somewhere else, where we not only expected to offset those problems/ but paid them big coin before they ever produced.

Every now and then we get lucky with someone like McDougal or Duane Brown (though neither was really a failure at his other stop) but we love taking guys that burned out somewhere else or burned bridges somewhere else - and insisting we try burning things here. It seems to have worked once, with Lynch. And Lynch was never an on-field problem. Just off field.

(If you want to bring in tons of great players that lost their jobs because of DUIs, that would be fine. Generally guys nailed for substance abuse don't later pan out, but plenty of guys nicked for DUIs end up producing just fine later on all over the NFL - but otherwise, high-risk high-cost guys don't make much sense.)

I am ecstatic we are not bringing in high priced failure FAs or weird trades to decimate our salary cap.

It isn't like we are a player away from a SB, this team isn't going to be able to coast to make a wildcard. Doable, but not worth going all in for the season on.

 

[Uncle Si]

Who has New England signed?

Do they fail yearly also?

No, the Pats go to the Superbowl yearly. We haven't been in how many years? Just cause this strategy works for the Pats doesn't mean it works for us. Look at our downward trajectory. Pete and John have lost their magic.

What downward trajectory?

Every team but one, the same who pays their qb pennies on the dollar, is playing the same game.

Seattle has been one of the most successful at it the last 8 years.

They are teying to repeat what they did 6-8 years ago with a 30 million dollar qb. Thats not arrogance or confidence or any non-quantifiable emotion.

Its tactical. It worked last year.

2014- 12-4 lost the Super Bowl
2015- 10-6- Lost in the Divisional Round
2016- 10-5-1 Lost in the Divisional Round
2017- 9-7 No playoofs
2018- 10-5 Lost in WIldcard Round

That is a downward trajectory. Then take in the terrible moves this team has made since then. Jimmy Graham trade. Sheldon Richardson one year rental. Malik Mcdowell. Resigning Kam. Letting Earl walk for no compensation. Cutting Sherman instead of trading him to get something. Trading Bennet for pennies. Penny. And look at the team now. Barely any draft capital. Holes all over the place. This team was better last year than in 2017 but that was a mirage. But hey, they did good stuff 5 years ago so we should be happy, right?

Its not realistic to assume 12-4 and super bowl every year as an expectation.

Not one team hasnt made tough decisions like the ones you criticized above... while leaving out many positive decisions as well.

Its flat irratuonal to expect the team to continue the sort of success in the way they did in 2013 and 14 for multiple years.

Considering what they have accomplished, id say leadership has done fine. In gindsight could they have done a few things different, yeah of course.

But 5 playoff years and 10 win seasons since a super bowl loss is better than every nfl team except one. And that team does not deal with the mitigating factor of paying a qb.

 

[SchadenfreudeHawk]

I am confused.

Are we upset we are not spending in a frothy FA market or making ill-advised trades?

Isn't that behavior in the past the very root of some of our recent problems?

Cary Williams
Luke Joekel
Eddie Lacey
..... there is a long list of guys we paid lots for that had problems somewhere else, where we not only expected to offset those problems/ but paid them big coin before they ever produced.

Every now and then we get lucky with someone like McDougal or Duane Brown (though neither was really a failure at his other stop) but we love taking guys that burned out somewhere else or burned bridges somewhere else - and insisting we try burning things here. It seems to have worked once, with Lynch. And Lynch was never an on-field problem. Just off field.

(If you want to bring in tons of great players that lost their jobs because of DUIs, that would be fine. Generally guys nailed for substance abuse don't later pan out, but plenty of guys nicked for DUIs end up producing just fine later on all over the NFL - but otherwise, high-risk high-cost guys don't make much sense.)

I am ecstatic we are not bringing in high priced failure FAs or weird trades to decimate our salary cap.

It isn't like we are a player away from a SB, this team isn't going to be able to coast to make a wildcard. Doable, but not worth going all in for the season on.

The issue is that there inaction in the early days of free agency is not yielding results either. How did that one year rental of Shamir Stephens work? Ed Dickson? Paying Tom Johnson to play for another team? If we were grabbing solid under the radar players in free agency that would be one thing but we haven't done that for years (Mcdougle is the notable exception). Also, we have, what, four picks in the draft? The cupboards are bare and we don't have much capital to restock them.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Who has New England signed?

Do they fail yearly also?

No, the Pats go to the Superbowl yearly. We haven't been in how many years? Just cause this strategy works for the Pats doesn't mean it works for us. Look at our downward trajectory. Pete and John have lost their magic.

What downward trajectory?

Every team but one, the same who pays their qb pennies on the dollar, is playing the same game.

Seattle has been one of the most successful at it the last 8 years.

They are teying to repeat what they did 6-8 years ago with a 30 million dollar qb. Thats not arrogance or confidence or any non-quantifiable emotion.

Its tactical. It worked last year.

2014- 12-4 lost the Super Bowl
2015- 10-6- Lost in the Divisional Round
2016- 10-5-1 Lost in the Divisional Round
2017- 9-7 No playoofs
2018- 10-5 Lost in WIldcard Round

That is a downward trajectory. Then take in the terrible moves this team has made since then. Jimmy Graham trade. Sheldon Richardson one year rental. Malik Mcdowell. Resigning Kam. Letting Earl walk for no compensation. Cutting Sherman instead of trading him to get something. Trading Bennet for pennies. Penny. And look at the team now. Barely any draft capital. Holes all over the place. This team was better last year than in 2017 but that was a mirage. But hey, they did good stuff 5 years ago so we should be happy, right?

I like how you ignored the brutal injury situation that created 2017. It went beyond the pale in terms of selectively taking out our best talent (Avril, Carson, LOB) yet gets placed at Carroll's feet? I'll place the kicker situation at Carroll's feet, sure, but that's hardly an indictment over his overall philosophy.

You want us to sign some big name because it makes you feel good that the team is doing something. There are just so many holes with that.

 

[TwistedHusky]

But does it make sense?

Aren't the Browns are rated by Vegas to have a better chance at a SB than we do? We are not just a few players away, we are in the middle of the pack, though maybe a wildcard because of our coach and QB.

 

[SchadenfreudeHawk]

No, the Pats go to the Superbowl yearly. We haven't been in how many years? Just cause this strategy works for the Pats doesn't mean it works for us. Look at our downward trajectory. Pete and John have lost their magic.

What downward trajectory?

Every team but one, the same who pays their qb pennies on the dollar, is playing the same game.

Seattle has been one of the most successful at it the last 8 years.

They are teying to repeat what they did 6-8 years ago with a 30 million dollar qb. Thats not arrogance or confidence or any non-quantifiable emotion.

Its tactical. It worked last year.

2014- 12-4 lost the Super Bowl
2015- 10-6- Lost in the Divisional Round
2016- 10-5-1 Lost in the Divisional Round
2017- 9-7 No playoofs
2018- 10-5 Lost in WIldcard Round

That is a downward trajectory. Then take in the terrible moves this team has made since then. Jimmy Graham trade. Sheldon Richardson one year rental. Malik Mcdowell. Resigning Kam. Letting Earl walk for no compensation. Cutting Sherman instead of trading him to get something. Trading Bennet for pennies. Penny. And look at the team now. Barely any draft capital. Holes all over the place. This team was better last year than in 2017 but that was a mirage. But hey, they did good stuff 5 years ago so we should be happy, right?

Its not realistic to assume 12-4 and super bowl every year as an expectation.

Not one team hasnt made tough decisions like the ones you criticized above... while leaving out many positive decisions as well.

Its flat irratuonal to expect the team to continue the sort of success in the way they did in 2013 and 14 for multiple years.

Considering what they have accomplished, id say leadership has done fine. In gindsight could they have done a few things different, yeah of course.

But 5 playoff years and 10 win seasons since a super bowl loss is better than every nfl team except one. And that team does not deal with the mitigating factor of paying a qb.

So, you admit that the team is on a downward trajectory but are OK with it cause we did good things 5 years ago. At what point will you stop being OK with this mediocrity? This team has made continual garbage decisions over and over again but these decisions are just shrugged off with a "pobodys nerfect" and the irrational belief that some how we are about to turn the corner. The constant defense of this administration is baffling. It's like with players, you need to get rid of them a year too early instead of a year to late. Pete and John have put this team in such bad straights that when they are finally canned it is going to take multiple years (IF everything goes right) to get them back in competition. But I guess that it's fine that we are not a legit contenteder because we won it all in the Obama era.

 

[SchadenfreudeHawk]

No, the Pats go to the Superbowl yearly. We haven't been in how many years? Just cause this strategy works for the Pats doesn't mean it works for us. Look at our downward trajectory. Pete and John have lost their magic.

What downward trajectory?

Every team but one, the same who pays their qb pennies on the dollar, is playing the same game.

Seattle has been one of the most successful at it the last 8 years.

They are teying to repeat what they did 6-8 years ago with a 30 million dollar qb. Thats not arrogance or confidence or any non-quantifiable emotion.

Its tactical. It worked last year.

2014- 12-4 lost the Super Bowl
2015- 10-6- Lost in the Divisional Round
2016- 10-5-1 Lost in the Divisional Round
2017- 9-7 No playoofs
2018- 10-5 Lost in WIldcard Round

That is a downward trajectory. Then take in the terrible moves this team has made since then. Jimmy Graham trade. Sheldon Richardson one year rental. Malik Mcdowell. Resigning Kam. Letting Earl walk for no compensation. Cutting Sherman instead of trading him to get something. Trading Bennet for pennies. Penny. And look at the team now. Barely any draft capital. Holes all over the place. This team was better last year than in 2017 but that was a mirage. But hey, they did good stuff 5 years ago so we should be happy, right?

I like how you ignored the brutal injury situation that created 2017. It went beyond the pale in terms of selectively taking out our best talent (Avril, Carson, LOB) yet gets placed at Carroll's feet? I'll place the kicker situation at Carroll's feet, sure, but that's hardly an indictment over his overall philosophy.

You want us to sign some big name because it makes you feel good that the team is doing something. There are just so many holes with that.

Avril and the LOB were old. Carson didn't play a full season of college ball (one of the reasons that he slipped to the 7th). Yes, not moving on from aging players IS the fault of Carroll. Carroll hung on to these players because he couldn't replace them. It was like a guy who had one good idea and keeps doing it over and over again. I love how all the Carroll apologists neglect that fact that the guys motto is "win forever." Like, he failed at that. He was good/lucky in the early stages of his career with us and coasted on those good choices. Seriously. Carroll sets a great tenor for the franchise
but is a bad in game coach and hasn't made good personnel decisions in over five years. Take away those early years and what has this team done personnel wise? The team is just gonna keep getting worse and worse.

 

[bmorepunk]

But does it make sense?

Aren't the Browns are rated by Vegas to have a better chance at a SB than we do? We are not just a few players away, we are in the middle of the pack, though maybe a wildcard because of our coach and QB.

They're the Browns. Until they can prove they don't suck and everything they do is stupid, they suck and everything they do is stupid.

 

[chris98251]

love how lurkers come out and start slamming and complaining because their Madden team isn't getting signed with 180 posts since 2011 only to disappear when we do our annual Gem dusting of what others think are turds at the end of free agency.

 

[mrt144]

We go through this most years. We let good players go and don’t address needs in free agency. I have always thought it is because Pete and JS think they are just that much brighter than everyone else. They think they can take other teams trash and turn it into starters. They ignore all the draft projections and take picks rounds earlier because they are just that much better. In the end they fail more than they succeed.

It’s frustrating.

I wouldn't say this is specifically arrogance. Arrogance is trading for a player and then using him in 'your way' despite everything good about him only being on display if you don't use him 'your way'.

Why is this arrogance? The assumption that you face no opportunity cost in rejiggering a dude for your plays, scheme, and strategy because you're that good of a coach.

 

[SchadenfreudeHawk]

No, the Pats go to the Superbowl yearly. We haven't been in how many years? Just cause this strategy works for the Pats doesn't mean it works for us. Look at our downward trajectory. Pete and John have lost their magic.

What downward trajectory?

Every team but one, the same who pays their qb pennies on the dollar, is playing the same game.

Seattle has been one of the most successful at it the last 8 years.

They are teying to repeat what they did 6-8 years ago with a 30 million dollar qb. Thats not arrogance or confidence or any non-quantifiable emotion.

Its tactical. It worked last year.

2014- 12-4 lost the Super Bowl
2015- 10-6- Lost in the Divisional Round
2016- 10-5-1 Lost in the Divisional Round
2017- 9-7 No playoofs
2018- 10-5 Lost in WIldcard Round

That is a downward trajectory. Then take in the terrible moves this team has made since then. Jimmy Graham trade. Sheldon Richardson one year rental. Malik Mcdowell. Resigning Kam. Letting Earl walk for no compensation. Cutting Sherman instead of trading him to get something. Trading Bennet for pennies. Penny. And look at the team now. Barely any draft capital. Holes all over the place. This team was better last year than in 2017 but that was a mirage. But hey, they did good stuff 5 years ago so we should be happy, right?

I like how you ignored the brutal injury situation that created 2017. It went beyond the pale in terms of selectively taking out our best talent (Avril, Carson, LOB) yet gets placed at Carroll's feet? I'll place the kicker situation at Carroll's feet, sure, but that's hardly an indictment over his overall philosophy.

You want us to sign some big name because it makes you feel good that the team is doing something. There are just so many holes with that.

It's not that I want them to sign a big name player so I feel good, it's that I agree with the OP that the team thinks that they can find diamonds in the rough. And they can't any more. Think of all the cap space and comp picks that the team wasted signing Shamir Stephens, Tom Johnson, Ed Dickson, Mingo, and Jaron Brown last year (around 10.3 million last year in cap space). They thought they could bargin basement shop and came up with a bunch of duds. What if they would have invested that 10 mill in a first day free agent? In re-signing Frank Clark a year early? No, just like the OP said they thought they could were smarter than everyone else and thought these bad players would help the team. We aren't ahead of the curve anymore. Do I want a big name signing? I don't know. Depends. Do I think what they are doing is working? Not. At. All.

 

[Uncle Si]

What downward trajectory?

Every team but one, the same who pays their qb pennies on the dollar, is playing the same game.

Seattle has been one of the most successful at it the last 8 years.

They are teying to repeat what they did 6-8 years ago with a 30 million dollar qb. Thats not arrogance or confidence or any non-quantifiable emotion.

Its tactical. It worked last year.

2014- 12-4 lost the Super Bowl
2015- 10-6- Lost in the Divisional Round
2016- 10-5-1 Lost in the Divisional Round
2017- 9-7 No playoofs
2018- 10-5 Lost in WIldcard Round

That is a downward trajectory. Then take in the terrible moves this team has made since then. Jimmy Graham trade. Sheldon Richardson one year rental. Malik Mcdowell. Resigning Kam. Letting Earl walk for no compensation. Cutting Sherman instead of trading him to get something. Trading Bennet for pennies. Penny. And look at the team now. Barely any draft capital. Holes all over the place. This team was better last year than in 2017 but that was a mirage. But hey, they did good stuff 5 years ago so we should be happy, right?

Its not realistic to assume 12-4 and super bowl every year as an expectation.

Not one team hasnt made tough decisions like the ones you criticized above... while leaving out many positive decisions as well.

Its flat irratuonal to expect the team to continue the sort of success in the way they did in 2013 and 14 for multiple years.

Considering what they have accomplished, id say leadership has done fine. In gindsight could they have done a few things different, yeah of course.

But 5 playoff years and 10 win seasons since a super bowl loss is better than every nfl team except one. And that team does not deal with the mitigating factor of paying a qb.

So, you admit that the team is on a downward trajectory but are OK with it cause we did good things 5 years ago. At what point will you stop being OK with this mediocrity? This team has made continual garbage decisions over and over again but these decisions are just shrugged off with a "pobodys nerfect" and the irrational belief that some how we are about to turn the corner. The constant defense of this administration is baffling. It's like with players, you need to get rid of them a year too early instead of a year to late. Pete and John have put this team in such bad straights that when they are finally canned it is going to take multiple years (IF everything goes right) to get them back in competition. But I guess that it's fine that we are not a legit contenteder because we won it all in the Obama era.

Yes 10 win seasons and playoffs are some dire straights.

If you want to quantify a downward trajectory as "not winning 12 games a year and not making a super bowl" then i reckon conversing about how illogical that is makes no sense.

Also.. they continue to find diamonds in the rough. As apparent by the salaries those players are garnering from other teams

 

[Uncle Si]

But does it make sense?

Aren't the Browns are rated by Vegas to have a better chance at a SB than we do? We are not just a few players away, we are in the middle of the pack, though maybe a wildcard because of our coach and QB.

Strange thing to use as a point.

Wonder what browns odds would be if they played in the NFC? Or what it will be in September? Or how their future looks giving up so much capital for a WR?

Howd you feel about the Graham and Percy moves?

 

[SchadenfreudeHawk]

2014- 12-4 lost the Super Bowl
2015- 10-6- Lost in the Divisional Round
2016- 10-5-1 Lost in the Divisional Round
2017- 9-7 No playoofs
2018- 10-5 Lost in WIldcard Round

That is a downward trajectory. Then take in the terrible moves this team has made since then. Jimmy Graham trade. Sheldon Richardson one year rental. Malik Mcdowell. Resigning Kam. Letting Earl walk for no compensation. Cutting Sherman instead of trading him to get something. Trading Bennet for pennies. Penny. And look at the team now. Barely any draft capital. Holes all over the place. This team was better last year than in 2017 but that was a mirage. But hey, they did good stuff 5 years ago so we should be happy, right?

Its not realistic to assume 12-4 and super bowl every year as an expectation.

Not one team hasnt made tough decisions like the ones you criticized above... while leaving out many positive decisions as well.

Its flat irratuonal to expect the team to continue the sort of success in the way they did in 2013 and 14 for multiple years.

Considering what they have accomplished, id say leadership has done fine. In gindsight could they have done a few things different, yeah of course.

But 5 playoff years and 10 win seasons since a super bowl loss is better than every nfl team except one. And that team does not deal with the mitigating factor of paying a qb.

So, you admit that the team is on a downward trajectory but are OK with it cause we did good things 5 years ago. At what point will you stop being OK with this mediocrity? This team has made continual garbage decisions over and over again but these decisions are just shrugged off with a "pobodys nerfect" and the irrational belief that some how we are about to turn the corner. The constant defense of this administration is baffling. It's like with players, you need to get rid of them a year too early instead of a year to late. Pete and John have put this team in such bad straights that when they are finally canned it is going to take multiple years (IF everything goes right) to get them back in competition. But I guess that it's fine that we are not a legit contenteder because we won it all in the Obama era.

Yes 10 win seasons and playoffs are some dire straights.

If you want to quantify a downward trajectory as "not winning 12 games a year and not making a super bowl" then i reckon conversing about how illogical that is makes no sense.

Also.. they continue to find diamonds in the rough. As apparent by the salaries those players are garnering from other teams

You must been a huge Browns fan in the 80s. I mean, they WENT to the AFC championship game four times in a row! I wish that I had your taste for losing, it would make things easier. The reality is that we are no longer a viable contender for the Super Bowl. That window is closed. The team keeps getting worse and worse (which you are OK with cause they make the playoffs) and will eventually tank. Yes, the goal of the team should be to win the Super Bowl. Every year. This regime is arrogant as they think that they are still ahead of the curve. The league has moved past them and figured them out. We lost a bunch of players and are sitting on our hands with only a couple draft picks. Pete and John think they can build a championship teams with reject players and we are gonna see more Mingo's added to the squad (while letting folks like Earl walk with no compensation). Can't wait for you to talk about how great the team is in a couple years when we have multiple 7-9 seasons and let Russel walk with no compesation. I mean, will there ever be a time when what this team did 6 years ago doesn't cover for their current failures for you?

 

[knownone]

Woah... This is starting to feel like the twilight zone. The league year has barely even started maybe we should wait until after the draft before we bury this team in irrelevancy.

 

[mrt144]

Woah... This is starting to feel like the twilight zone. The league year has barely even started maybe we should wait until after the draft before we bury this team in irrelevancy.

Personally, I'm riding high on the future, so I'll defer until after the draft to sandbag the team

 

[Hawknballs]

I think Pete and John set a price they are willing to pay and adamantly stick to that plan no matter what.

If there's any criticism I would level at them it would be in the players they have traded for (Graham, Harvin) that just don't fit the team's identity as tough, scrappy, next man up which has always fueled their success.

But as far as letting players walk, I respect the fact that they seem to have a number in mind and stick with it.

I also think they have learned their lesson with malcontents in the locker room and aren't going to keep them around at any cost.

 

[bmorepunk]

Woah... This is starting to feel like the twilight zone. The league year has barely even started maybe we should wait until after the draft before we bury this team in irrelevancy.

There's always a contingent of people who are unhappy that the front office doesn't pick up the big name, big dollar free agents the first few days. FOMO is real.